Prop 8: Sorry, I gotta ask

[Blade_and_Blood]

You know… I’ve been thinking…

Out of ALL of the problems our world has, why are we concentrating on things that are irrevelant?

War, Epidemics, Rape, Murder, Poverty… Recession ?!], and people decide to protest against gay marriage… Really? Am I the only one who’s amazed by this?

We’re being distracted by something that we shouldn’t care about… we’re being distracted from the issues that really need to be fixed in order to make this world a better place–not for Christians, but for mankind.

As much as a happy Catholic I am, I must say, religion really puts a leash around your neck.

I may say more on this, but that’s just a basic idea of what I’ve been… eh… contemplating. I’m really curious about what you guys think.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[kristie_m]

You know… I’ve been thinking…

Out of ALL of the problems our world has, why are we concentrating on things that are irrevelant?

War, Epidemics, Rape, Murder, Poverty… Recession ?!], and people decide to protest against gay marriage… Really? Am I the only one who’s amazed by this?

We’re being distracted by something that we shouldn’t care about… we’re being distracted from the issues that really need to be fixed in order to make this world a better place–not for Christians, but for mankind.

As much as a happy Catholic I am, I must say, religion really puts a leash around your neck.

I may say more on this, but that’s just a basic idea of what I’ve been… eh… contemplating. I’m really curious about what you guys think.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

Morality is important. Gay marriage is another attempt to normalize something that my faith tells me is disordered and sinful. It’s not that it’s more important than those other issues it’s just that it’s a hot button topic. Each side sees it as a black or white issue. One of us is wrong, one right. Each side believes that the other is jeopardizing their rights. People tend to get a bit testy when that happens.

Not everyone is called to fight every battle. We, as Catholics, believe that abortion is wrong, but not every Catholic is called to stand and pray in front of an abortion mill. It’s the same here. Some are called to speak out against those that would violate the sanctity of marriage. Quite honestly, I feel a lot more strongly about prop 8 than I do about the economy. But I may well be in a minority on this.

 

[Caesar517]

Protecting the basic building block of society is one of the most relevant issues we face today.

 

[yellowbicycle]

Catholics, and others who were opposed to Prop 8 saw it as an attack on the family. I think it would be fair to say that a large number of our nation’s problems can be tied back to the disintegration of the family unit. So I don’t think people saw this as an isolated issue. It’s more of a cause and effect. People feel that if you protect marriage, and the family and life, that is in fact the solution to many of the problems you just named.

 

[chewchoo]

Catholics, and others who were opposed to Prop 8 saw it as an attack on the family. I think it would be fair to say that a large number of our nation’s problems can be tied back to the disintegration of the family unit. So I don’t think people saw this as an isolated issue. It’s more of a cause and effect. People feel that if you protect marriage, and the family and life, that is in fact the solution to many of the problems you just named.

perfect answer

 

[Kevin42]

Why do we have this idea that we are only capable of dealing with one issue at a time? People who voted on same-sex marriage also voted for President, senators, representatives, etc… I am sure same-sex marriage isn’t the only issue that people are worried about. However, since we were able to address it, why should we not?

 

[LilyM]

There’s no such thing as an ‘irrelevant’ moral issue. All moral issues are relevant .

Like a previous poster said you can’t DO anything about some of them, but it’s not like Catholics went looking for this one, it happened and their obligation is to respond in the morally correct way.

 

[Benedictus]

Catholics, and others who were opposed to Prop 8 saw it as an attack on the family. I think it would be fair to say that a large number of our nation’s problems can be tied back to the disintegration of the family unit. So I don’t think people saw this as an isolated issue. It’s more of a cause and effect. People feel that if you protect marriage, and the family and life, that is in fact the solution to many of the problems you just named.

This has nothing to do with protecting marriage or family. Same sex couples aren’t a threat to your marriages or families. This is just an attempt to impose your religion’s rules on everyone else. Ironically, many of the biggest advocates of measures like proposition 8 are the same ones hypocritically complaining about governmental intrusions in their lives.

 

[Eucharisted]

In my state, the elections are not like the Presidential Election. You don’t just vote on someone based on one issue or policy - you vote on all the measures pressed to you, for the good of California.

I voted Yes on Prop 8 because I believe marriage is between a man and a woman and I believe homosexual acts are a sin and I believe legalizing free unions would make them on an an equal status as marriage, which would attack marriage and the family. I voted Yes on Prop 4 because I believe minors should be responsible citizens and I believe abortion is an instrinic evil, so putting any barriers to it (so to speak) is a good thing.

However, and I know this is not a coincidence, while Prop 8 passed, and this caused a lot of gay fury and gay “enemy list”, Prop 4 didn’t pass, and we elected Obama, and not only was there not a shed of protest but all of our attention has been focused on Prop 8, as if it’s a victory. It’s not. It’s just a simple measurement, which is now being challeneged - as this prop is always being challenged in my state, even though Californians voted on it. However, there has been a silence about Prop 4, almost a shameful silence, and I’ve been doing what I can to tell people to talk about Prop 4, because while making marriage between man and woman is a good thing, it is a pale shadow compared to the biggest issue of them all: abortion. And we lost that fight. Minors now have the right to get abortions without telling their parents. It is disgusting and will not help California.

So where are all the peaceful protests? Where is all the talk? Is the pro-life movement working silently, or has it given up? My prayers are going out to the unborn, but prayers are not enough - a new prop needs to be introduced which will reverse prop 4. That’s my idea for a solution. It’s not the best, but that’s an idea I’ve come up with. I don’t have the resources to make such a prop, but I can definitely lend a helping hand to those who would make such a prop for the next elections (which I believe is in 2012?).

Yes we won in securing marriage and family, but we lost in securing the most fundamental right, the most fundalemtal cell of the family and marriage: life. And that should be shocking us.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

This has nothing to do with protecting marriage or family. Same sex couples aren’t a threat to your marriages or families. This is just an attempt to impose your religion’s rules on everyone else. Ironically, many of the biggest advocates of measures like proposition 8 are the same ones hypocritically complaining about governmental intrusions in their lives.

Yes, it does. For thousands of years it has been the basis of a
civilization and the one man, one woman in a marriage raise the
children, the best place to raise the children.

 

[kristie_m]

This has nothing to do with protecting marriage or family. Same sex couples aren’t a threat to your marriages or families. This is just an attempt to impose your religion’s rules on everyone else. Ironically, many of the biggest advocates of measures like proposition 8 are the same ones hypocritically complaining about governmental intrusions in their lives.

Same sex couples ARE a threat to my family when the lifestyle is promoted in my children’s school. Don’t start about how it has nothing to do with the schools. It’s already happening in Massachussettes. KINDGERGARTENERS are being told that gay marriage is a perfectly normal thing, and the parents’ only recourse is to take their kids out of the public schools. You can’t even opt out of these lessons. It’s absolutely a violation of the rights of parents to protect their children from such rubbish.

 

[PaulinVA]

You know what the irony here is? The Mormons were persecuted for their polygamous stand in the 1800s, and were forced to accept one man and one woman marriage.

Now, they are being persecuted for fighting for one man and one woman marriage. They just can’t win!

Seriously, though, the gay agenda (yes there is one) is closely tied to the feminist agenda and the perception that all of the world’s ills are caused by eurocentric paternalism and misogyny.

It’s not just an acceptance of the gay lifestyle - it’s the acceptance of abandoning tradition for the sake of abandoning tradition (because tradition is misogynistic and paternalistic), it’s the acceptance of relativism, it’s the rejection of all structures that they deem to be out of step with the postmodern world.

 

[RobHom]

Personally, I think “same sex marriages” are far less of an issue than many that are on the table. Frankly, I do know some “gay” people…and they are “monogamus”…and if you didn’t already know that they were “gay”…you would never be able to tell.

While classically and historically…“Marriage” has been strictly between a man and a woman. However, lets look at the subject objectively:

Just what in the blazes is the government doing being involved in “marriage”. Marriage is a religious ceremony. It is not a “civil” issue. Marriage in the civil context is just another excuse to collect money. In my home state of Florida…you have to fork over $93.50 for the license. Plus you have to attend a course that you pay for as well…orangeclerk.onetgov.net/service/marriage.shtml

And all you actually get is what is known as a legalized “civil union”. Legal protections for a union between two people!
Rights to property, rights to inheritance, etc.

There are far more pressing issues in our country and the world than same sex unions. Like child abuse: childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/fatality.cfm
In 2006, one or both parents were responsible for 75.9 percent of child abuse or neglect fatalities. And the site states that the statistics are generally “under-reported” as to how many cases there are. My point here is that “married” couples that are man and woman aren’t doing such a great job…

More information: childhelp.org/resources/learning-center/statistics

And our “society”…has actually gotten to the point to where we have so many children kidnapped and murdered…that we have started putting their pictures on “milk cartons” and the backs of semi-trailers!!

Another interesting fact is that where the murders of children 5 years of age and under…over 10,000 murdered,

*Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2005 –

* 31% were killed by fathers
* 29% were killed by mothers
* 23% were killed by male acquaintances
* 7% were killed by other relatives
* 3% were killed by strangers

Of those children killed by someone other than their parent, 81% were killed by males. *

No, I’m not “gay”…but to me I find that the issue ranks well behind far more pressing issues. I have known gay people who have been in far more stable long term relationships than married people…and the fact that only 63% of kids in this country grow up with their biological parents…is appalling! divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

Am I in favor of gay marriage: No, but I do see it as far less of an issue than many others. Many others…

In so far as any “School System” teaching anything about gay marriage or anything else beyond “toleration” of others where race, creed, religion, or orientation is concerned…that is wrong. It is not the place of the government to establish mores or values. But lets face it… the people have left that job to them.
You reap what you sow. If you sow nothing, then weeds grow.
The people of this country have abdicated their responsibilities on many issues.

But hey…if you want to get all wound up over two gay people wanting to have a “civil union” and ignore all the rest, like these things:

thethirdjihad.com/

obsessionthemovie.com/

radicalislam.org/content/roots-violent-islamist-extremism-and-efforts-counter-it

radicalislam.org/content/islam-governing-under-sharia

And if we as a Christian people ignore the issues directly related to our survival as people and a society…then we will pay a far steeper price than we ever thought we would…subservience or extinction.

 

[adstrinity]

This has nothing to do with protecting marriage or family. Same sex couples aren’t a threat to your marriages or families. This is just an attempt to impose your religion’s rules on everyone else. Ironically, many of the biggest advocates of measures like proposition 8 are the same ones hypocritically complaining about governmental intrusions in their lives.

And we DO want government to stay out of our lives. The people of California voted for the government to stay out of their lives while protecting the status quo. The government wants to impliment a travesty that has never been permited before in history. Gay marriage is unnatural. The government should stay out of marriage.

 

[Beautiful]

You know… I’ve been thinking…

Out of ALL of the problems our world has, why are we concentrating on things that are irrevelant?

War, Epidemics, Rape, Murder, Poverty… Recession ?!], and people decide to protest against gay marriage… Really? Am I the only one who’s amazed by this?

We’re being distracted by something that we shouldn’t care about…

You might ask people for gay marriage why they are wasting their time and the time and energy of others.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Personally, I think “same sex marriages” are far less of an issue than many that are on the table. Frankly, I do know some “gay” people…and they are “monogamus”…and if you didn’t already know that they were “gay”…you would never be able to tell.

While classically and historically…“Marriage” has been strictly between a man and a woman. However, lets look at the subject objectively:

Just what in the blazes is the government doing being involved in “marriage”. Marriage is a religious ceremony. It is not a “civil” issue. Marriage in the civil context is just another excuse to collect money. In my home state of Florida…you have to fork over $93.50 for the license. Plus you have to attend a course that you pay for as well…orangeclerk.onetgov.net/service/marriage.shtml

And all you actually get is what is known as a legalized “civil union”. Legal protections for a union between two people!
Rights to property, rights to inheritance, etc.

There are far more pressing issues in our country and the world than same sex unions. Like child abuse: childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/fatality.cfm
In 2006, one or both parents were responsible for 75.9 percent of child abuse or neglect fatalities. And the site states that the statistics are generally “under-reported” as to how many cases there are. My point here is that “married” couples that are man and woman aren’t doing such a great job…

More information: childhelp.org/resources/learning-center/statistics

And our “society”…has actually gotten to the point to where we have so many children kidnapped and murdered…that we have started putting their pictures on “milk cartons” and the backs of semi-trailers!!

Another interesting fact is that where the murders of children 5 years of age and under…over 10,000 murdered,

*Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2005 –

* 31% were killed by fathers
* 29% were killed by mothers
* 23% were killed by male acquaintances
* 7% were killed by other relatives
* 3% were killed by strangers

Of those children killed by someone other than their parent, 81% were killed by males. *

No, I’m not “gay”…but to me I find that the issue ranks well behind far more pressing issues. I have known gay people who have been in far more stable long term relationships than married people…and the fact that only 63% of kids in this country grow up with their biological parents…is appalling! divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

Am I in favor of gay marriage: No, but I do see it as far less of an issue than many others. Many others…

In so far as any “School System” teaching anything about gay marriage or anything else beyond “toleration” of others where race, creed, religion, or orientation is concerned…that is wrong. It is not the place of the government to establish mores or values. But lets face it… the people have left that job to them.
You reap what you sow. If you sow nothing, then weeds grow.
The people of this country have abdicated their responsibilities on many issues.

But hey…if you want to get all wound up over two gay people wanting to have a “civil union” and ignore all the rest, like these things:

thethirdjihad.com/

obsessionthemovie.com/

radicalislam.org/content/roots-violent-islamist-extremism-and-efforts-counter-it

radicalislam.org/content/islam-governing-under-sharia

And if we as a Christian people ignore the issues directly related to our survival as people and a society…then we will pay a far steeper price than we ever thought we would…subservience or extinction.

The situation is far more serious than you make it out to be.
Civil unions are already legal in some states. This is above
and beyond that. Marriage is an institution and one that has
always been understood as the union of one man and one
woman and it is sad that we have to go through all of this
but despite that there are other issues, we don’t ignore the
“smaller” ones.
It is already hard to teach our values to our children and have
them supported in the public schools. What is a parent to do
if these “out of kilter” teachings take place and we can’t
afford to send our children to schools that don’t teach these
things? And will this ruling and following lawsuits decree that
those teachings also have to be included in religious schools?
You see that in Boston the Church is not involved in adoptions
because they refused to support adoptions to same sex parents.
That is a disservice to couples who wanted to adopt.
If you are sincere in wanting to see what has happened and is
happening in other countries, try checking out the websites:
lifenews.com and
lifesitenews.com

 

[Oscarthecat]

This is a classic example of how government intervention has unintended consequences.

Protecting the basic building block of society is one of the most relevant issues we face today.

I agree that marriage, understood as being between one man and one woman, is a building block of society that should be protected- but I think that where we go wrong is in resigning ourselves to the idea that the government can or should protect our social institutions.

-Originally, marriage, as an institution, derived its authority from the innate understanding of the natural law, and was formally expressed in the religious tradition. Anyone who says it was a secular institution at any time prior to the present day is ignorant of the fact that in antiquity ALL communities and governments recognized a specific religious orientation.
-But over time, people looked to the government to “support the institution of marriage” in the form of tax, inheritance, or other benefits.
-And, as is always the case, a few generations down the line, people came to believe that an institution, which originally had nothing to do with government, has somehow become dependent on or is derived from the government’s authority.
-And so today, we can’t even conceive of renouncing the government’s role in marriage- it is even written into our Canon Law!
-Now, the accepted government definition of marriage is going to change, and people are up in arms because they believe that the end product will change what has been, and always will be, the institution of marriage.

But what they should be doing is simply saying “OK, if that’s what you folks in the government think marriage is, then we don’t want anything to do with it- we’re content to remain true to our values and beliefs, even if it means giving up all the civil perks of a civil marriage.”

If the government’s definition of marriage changes so drastically that it no longer resembles what real marriage actually is, then I think that we, as Catholics, ought to stop participating in it. That is, we should only engage in Sacramental Marriage, and stop wasting our time or effort asking for a government recognition of our marriage.

In fact, we really need to do away with this whole civil marriage nonsense while we still can. Think about it- once the government gets away with defining marriage however they see fit, they’re going to start telling the Church that our definition of Sacramental Marriage is discriminatory.

So, to answer the OP- yes, of course we should have voted in favor of formalizing the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman. But what would have been better would have been to vote to dissolve all government involvement in marriage.

 

[RobHom]

I am well aware of what is happening. I am also well aware of the fact that people have been sitting on their hands doing very little to prevent these things from happening. I am aware that people have allowed themselves to either be lulled into complacency by the promises of a politician…or lulled into security in the belief that someone else would take care of the problem while they spent the bulk of their time trying to figure out how to buy this or that or whatever.

People have made choices. The time has arrived when the payback is due. Voting a party line based on R or D…BAD!! That the ills have happened…is simply due to the fact that good people stood around doing nothing, and simply allowed evil to gain ground.

Gee, I wonder how many “parents” in Massachusetts have filed lawsuits against the state or the school system to get them out of the “selling of homosexual rights/equality”?

And GEEEE! I wonder where all the right-wing whacko evangelicals are hiding now that the Mormon’s are being attacked and assaulted in CA for their stance… are “RWE’s” all hiding in their closets…? Why aren’t they out there forming a protest line in front of the Mormon Temple and shouting down the gays?? Oh wait…the only time that “RWE’s” ever go around Mormon’s is to scream and criticize them for their beliefs…and try to convert them. Forget the Mormon’s for taking a large financial stance in that battle and standing up for the “family” and marriage.

I’m not missing anything about anything. I am especially not missing the blatant hypocrisy of the entire issue…or issues for that matter.

Frankly… I learned my values and morals at home. I didn’t learn them at school. My values and morals were ingrained early. My parents taught them and enforced them. If parents cannot implant those values and morals…such that they override and supersede anything taught outside the home…then they should not be parents.

Where Catholics are concerned…for too many years…way too many…we have been taught to be humble and bear things silently…and now we’re paying for it.

Catholics have been slow to learn what others have already learned: The power of the spending dollar. The power of cohesive voting. The power of the courts. We have been guilty of the sin of omission, in things that we have failed to do. Now we will have to work 5 times as hard to right the wrongs and secure our rights to live as Catholics and teach our children what is right.

 

[RobHom]

But what they should be doing is simply saying “OK, if that’s what you folks in the government think marriage is, then we don’t want anything to do with it- we’re content to remain true to our values and beliefs, even if it means giving up all the civil perks of a civil marriage.”

Afterall, which is more important in our lives? Our Values & Beliefs … or a piece of paper from the state? Sacramental Marriage in our Church making a commitment before God… or a piece of paper from the “state”?

If the government’s definition of marriage changes so drastically that it no longer resembles what real marriage actually is, then I think that we, as Catholics, ought to stop participating in it. That is, we should only engage in Sacramental Marriage, and stop wasting our time or effort asking for a government recognition of our marriage.

We don’t need it. A couple who are married in the Church can accomplish the same legally with Powers of Attorney.
Ownership rights, and all the rest.

In fact, we really need to do away with this whole civil marriage nonsense while we still can. Think about it- once the government gets away with defining marriage however they see fit, they’re going to start telling the Church that our definition of Sacramental Marriage is discriminatory.

Actually…it will go much further than that. I read Orwell’s book 1984 many years ago…and whats strange is that most of what he predicted happened pre-1984 and its still happening. If we don’t make changes…government may take over religion…

So, to answer the OP- yes, of course we should have voted in favor of formalizing the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman. But what would have been better would have been to vote to dissolve all government involvement in marriage.

On that I agree 100% Sounds like the best solution period!

 

[Caesar517]

So, to answer the OP- yes, of course we should have voted in favor of formalizing the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman. But what would have been better would have been to vote to dissolve all government involvement in marriage.

What do you think of the government promoting marriage and families via the tax system in an effort to stabilize society?

There is only one reason why I believe this is so important in the first place: the law is a teacher.

If the government redefines the word “marriage” to include homosexual unions, people will start believing that definition – mostly non-Catholics. We have seen how Protestant teachings change, I wouldn’t expect many of them to last. Eventually, it will start to permeate into the minds of many Catholics as some morally liberal issues have (ABC, for instance).

If “marriage” is redefined, it will do damage to Catholicism (nothing fatal of course, but it will be detrimental nonetheless). If the government were to get out of all marriage issues, I would be happy. Unfortunately, I can’t see this ever happening. We could only expel them from our own, and that wouldn’t solve the problem.