Proper Dress and Behavior for Catholic Women

[weepixie71]

i remember my mom would ask me… is that what you would wear if you were to see God face to face?

If you dress nicer to go to an italian restaurant or to play golf, you may want to rethink your style of dress.

1Corinthians 11:2-16
2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not be covered, then let her be shorn! But since it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For indeed a man ought not to cover his head, being the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason the woman should have authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 In any case, woman is not independent of man, nor man of woman, in the Lord; 12 for as woman is [created] from man, so man is now [born] through woman. And all things are from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

 

[John_Higgins]

The original article looks suspiciously like a letter sent by an Italian bishop to his see in 1961 or so. I’ll see if I can find it.

What a bunch of carp! (Either I’m dyslexic or I refer to useless bottom feeder fish—you decide.)

Let’s go get togas and suits of armor…

One of the things I saw at my first (and probably last) TLM in 40 years was a woman in sweats with a chapel veil. Go figure.

I was going to quote all the prohibitions from the OT, but my favorite president, Jed Bartlet said it better:
President Bartlet:

NOTE: Dr. Jacobs is a Dr. Laura-esque character

BARTLET: I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an “abomination!”

JACOBS: I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.

BARTLET: Yes it does. Leviticus!

JACOBS: 18:22.

BARTLET: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I wanted to sell my youngest daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown Sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?

(Bartlet only waits a second for a response, then plunges on.)

BARTLET: While thinking about that, can I ask another? My chief of staff, Leo McGary, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Or is it okay to call the police?

(Bartlet barely pauses to take a breath.)

BARTLET: Here’s one that’s really important, because we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?

The West Wing, Episode 2-3, “The Midterms”
Copyright 2000, Aaron Sorkin, All rights reserved

John

 

[DavidPalm]

What seems to be missing from this discussion is the point that Modernity waged a huge war on Western Christian (which is to say, Catholic) culture. One major plank of that assault was on gender distinctions. The Catholic Church very much resisted that assault, but as with so many things Catholics have often just aped an increasingly declining culture and shrugged it off as, “Oh, it’s only cultural.” Sure, cultural, but a culture informed by what philosophy, Christian or anti-Christian?

Indeed, the gender distinctive practice of women covering their heads at Mass was practiced continuously for 1900 years and was only dropped (contrary to the Church’s law) right in the midst of this cultural revolution. And if it is deemed no longer binding (something many would question), what gender distinctive action took its place in the sacred liturgy? Nothing, right? So modern culture simply swallowed up an immemorial Catholic expression of gender distinction. I’m sympathetic to those who resist that sort of thing and say we need to go back to a distinctive (read: traditional) Catholic outlook. I’m very sympathetic in general to the movement in which Catholic women increasingly dress distinctively as women. I hope we’ll see more direction from the bishops on these matters.

 

[maryjk]

I just thought these sites would be of interest to the ladies on this forum.

Years ago, we were never allowed to wear Pants of any kind to church. (I never saw anyone back then wear pants.) We all wore a head covering of some kind also.

Not allowed, by the Church? Or maybe it was that your Mother and Grandmother never wore pants. I know that my Grandmother never wore pants, anywhere, let alone church.

Yes I realize that over the years the “Dress Code” or “Accepted Dress Code” (or lack of dresses) has changed.

In general some people say, “Well times have changed.”

Yes they have…

The Bible is no longer in school,
Prayer is out of the schools,
Most Mom’s work out of the home’s,
Women want equal rights in all things.
Men (in general) aren’t the head of the household anymore.
Divorce Rate…is way up.
Lot’s of kids are raised by single parents
Dessing for our Lord in Church has changed. Look in any Cathoic Church today and how you see most men and women dressed, is the same as going to the Friday “Foot ball Game”. (is sad indeed.)

Yes, times have changed…

And you think this change is because women wear pants to church?

Just maybe there was something to wearing a Dress, (doesn’t/didn’t have to be fancy) and a head covering for our Lord, during Mass. Wonder what the Lord thinks about all the changes that have taken place, over time.

And everything will be better if women just started wearing dresses to church. Oh, and a head covering

True the Catholic Church doesn’t have a “Dress Code”. So women (and men) are free to dress as they please.

 

[Shin]

Let me take a moment simply to thank God for women who do dress as women should, modestly and femininely!

The Lord and His saints and angels appreciate this more than you will know on earth, but you certainly shall in Heaven!

 

[Chrisy58]

*Of course living in the desert where it gets very hot you see men going to mass in shorts and flip flops. Now if women are to have some dress code don’t you think men should have a dress code too. I do understand that Summers in Phoenix get very hot, but do men have to wear short shorts and flip flops to church?

As a woman I do try and dress somewhat nice. I try to wear a skirt and sandals. When it is 120 degrees outside I am not wearing panty hose. I would wear a head covering again. I went to a church in Mesa and I saw girls and women wearing a head covering and I thought about starting to wear one again, but I would be the only one who wears one at my church, but I still may start wearing one even if it means I get looks from everyone else.

I just think men could wear pants and a nice short sleeve shirt and not have to look like they are going to the swimming pool or the golf course. I am not saying they have to wear a suit and tie in the Summer here as that is like us women having to wear panty hose in the heat, but I think they could find something more suitable to church than short shorts and tee shirts with flip flops.

I just think if you are going to have a dress code that you also need to include men and not just say women have to dress such a way, but men are allowed to continue to go to Mass dressed for the beach and a swim.

So many times, it is always the women who get singled out as the offender, but men also do not dress up as much as they used to when going to mass.

Though personally, I don’t think Jesus looks at what one wears as what is in their heart. We should be going to Mass to worship Christ and not looking at what the other people are wearing. *

 

[samcarter14]

I know I’ve said this before, but I do not feel modest in skirts. I tried wearing only skirts (long ones) for a year, and I felt I got more attention than was seemly. Our next door neighbor, an elderly, kindly man, was always commenting how nice I looked and how he liked to see women wearing skirts…I know it was innocent, but I felt like I was calling more attention to myself.

When I’d garden in my skirts, I got huge bug bites all over my legs, and allergic reactions. Yes, I know, tights–but in 85 degree weather in the summer? Nope.

Also, I have small children and am usually getting down on the floor at home to change diapers or clean the floor, and I just feel awkward in a skirt doing housework and playing on the floor. For me, jeans (those styles which are not low rise and not too tight) are more modest and practical for my lifestyle.

I wear shirts that are not low cut, and I don’t even like to wear short sleeves, so I figure I am modest in my own way. Neither do I wear excessive makeup. I also don’t think short hair is wrong on women; my MIL wears a short-cut wig due to her chemotherapy, I certainly hope nobody tells her her hair is not pleasing to God!

This section in one of those links posted by the OP caught my eye:

“Our girls should be pursuing lady-like activities and hobbies which will prepare them for marriage and their proper role as mother and wife. They should be learning to sew, embroider, knit, crochet, cook, make rosaries, sing good Catholic songs and other decent, patriotic songs, play musical instruments (we’ll need an organ player eventually for our chapel), paint and draw. Above all they should be learning to talk, dress, sit, walk, stand, kneel, stoop and act like a lady at all times. Our girls have many options open to them, if they will only pursue them in a moral decent manner.”

Um, gee, I can’t knit or crochet or make a rosary, and I’d bet there’s lots of good Catholic wives who can’t play an instrument (my MIL comes to mind; she can’t paint or draw either). What a narrow view of what a good wife can do! My DH would rather have a wife who can help haul dirt in the wheelbarrow, plant crops, tear down weeds, as well as rear children, cook, and clean in comfort.

The article also says many sports are taboo for Catholics…huh? Yikes.

 

[DavidPalm]

Of course living in the desert where it gets very hot you see men going to mass in shorts and flip flops. Now if women are to have some dress code don’t you think men should have a dress code too. . . .

So many times, it is always the women who get singled out as the offender, but men also do not dress up as much as they used to when going to mass.

Though personally, I don’t think Jesus looks at what one wears as what is in their heart. We should be going to Mass to worship Christ and not looking at what the other people are wearing.

I agree with you that men need to pay attention to what they are wearing as well. What ever happened to putting on one’s “Sunday best”? Even young children know that we dress up for what we consider important.

I wonder, if these same men were invited to meet the President of the United States, would they show up in shorts and flip flops? Doubt it. But for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, sure no problem. It’s good enough for Him. I can’t really understand that sort of thinking.

You are right that it’s too easy for us to be judgmental. Those who are just innocently ignorant of such things certainly shouldn’t be harangued. But that’s what forums like this are for. You never know who is “lurking” and whose mind and practice will be changed for the good.

 

[Shin]

I cannot walk through mass with a blindfold on, or life.

Christ refused people for coming to a wedding without proper garments. There is a spiritual meaning to this, but more than one spiritual meaning.

The reason women are more focused on is because women and men are different and have their different vulnerabilities and strengths. Men are more vulnerable to sin through the eyes.

It is a teaching of Christ that it is a sin to lead others into sin. Therefor, women should dress so as not to incite the deadly sin of lust in men. Those who do not dress properly love themselves more than neighbor, and so love themselves more than Christ.

 

[lizaanne]

Sixth, the passage from Deuteronomy specifically forbids unisex clothing.

Ok - well this just seals it for me.

If my husband wore any of MY trousers he would ABSOLUTELY look like a girl!!!

This is just beyond ridiculous. Just because a trouser is of a trouser like shape does not make it only a man’s article of clothing. There are trousers that are VERY feminine, flatter ONLY the feminine figure, and are cut exclusively for women SO THAT they don’t look like men!!!

Now - if I were to start wearing my husband’s suits (Annie Hall style), with a tie and a tailored shirt, then that’s a different thing altogether. But to say that ALL trousers are inappropriate for women is just absurd.

~Liza

 

[Chrisy58]

I cannot walk through mass with a blindfold on, or life.

Christ refused people for coming to a wedding without proper garments. There is a spiritual meaning to this, but more than one spiritual meaning.

The reason women are more focused on is because women and men are different and have their different vulnerabilities and strengths. Men are more vulnerable to sin through the eyes.

It is a teaching of Christ that it is a sin to lead others into sin. Therefor, women should dress so as not to incite the deadly sin of lust in men. Those who do not dress properly love themselves more than neighbor, and so love themselves more than Christ.

I don’t like the fact that in some Religious circles women are blamed for the sins of men. I don’t buy that. we should all be responsible for our own sins. If it is wrong for women not to dress up a little for Mass than it should also be a sin for men to have so little regard for what they wear to mass too.

Another thing that really bothers me, is that you are blaming women for the lust in men’s heart. As someone who was sexually raped as a little girl I find your statement offensive and is an example of what I went through as a child being blamed for the acts of a grown man who lusted after a little girl.

I developed before I was in 6th grade. I didn’t even know what sex was and I had older guys and boys in my class treat me as an object of their desire. Instead of making the boys give an account or teach them to treat me with respect as their classmate I was the one who was sent home when my uniform blouse made them have sexual desires because I was more developed than the other girls. Yet, to people like you and the school and to the world it is my fault.

I am sorry but you hit a nerve with you blaming girls and women for the lusts in men.

There is such a thing as self control. I am tired of people making me feel guilty and judging me harshly for things that happen in my childhood, youth, and young adulthood because I was forced to do things I didn’t want to do and forced to sin. People may say why didn’t you ask for help. I did, and the cries went unheard, and people just judged me.

So yes, even in our Catholic Church we have people who like to judge the victim and blame her for the desires of men. Do you think girls and women want to be raped? Do you think we ask for it? There are some guys who don’t even believe date rape exists but that the girl/woman just changed her mind and even though she said no, she ment yes.

I am a regualar Catholic, and if this is what traditional Catholics do and believe that it is the girl/woman fault for men’s lusting after her, than I don’t think I will stay on this board very long.

I am late for work, but you comment of women are responsible for men’s lust opened a old wound.

 

[lizaanne]

This section in one of those links posted by the OP caught my eye:

“Our girls should be pursuing lady-like activities and hobbies which will prepare them for marriage and their proper role as mother and wife. They should be learning to sew, embroider, knit, crochet, cook, make rosaries, sing good Catholic songs and other decent, patriotic songs, play musical instruments (we’ll need an organ player eventually for our chapel), paint and draw. Above all they should be learning to talk, dress, sit, walk, stand, kneel, stoop and act like a lady at all times. Our girls have many options open to them, if they will only pursue them in a moral decent manner.”

Yeah - me too.

I guess that means that I have to quit my job as an IT professional - that’s probably too manly. Well, we would just have to live without health insurance, a car, and probably even a home, since I am the main wage earner in the home SO MY HUSBAND CAN WORK FOR A NON-PROFIT SERVING GOD!!

Oh yeah - this whole line of discussion totally cheeses me off.

I think I am one of the most feminine girly girls I know - anyone who knows me would agree with this. I am modest, I even cover my head at Mass. I even defer to my husband probably 95% of the time (I’m not a saint) - so don’t tell me for one second that I’m not a proper Catholic woman because I choose to wear a pair of trousers when it’s -7*F and I have to clean off a snow covered car, or that I can’t work at my profession because it might be too manly.

Rubbish. There is a total lack of common sense in the OP’s links. We ALL need to pursue holiness CONSTANTLY. In what we say and in what we do, given our own personal circumstances. Dictating specifics like skirt length and how one employs their time is beyond unacceptable.

~Liza

 

[Shin]

‘You carry your snare everywhere and spread your net in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not indeed by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. And much more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me whom does this world condemn? Whom do the judges in court punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You are more criminal than those who poison the body. You have given the death-dealing drink. You murder not the body but the soul, and it is not to enemies do you do this nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity nor provoked by injury. But you do it out of foolish vanity and pride.’

St. John Chrysostem

I’m sorry that you have suffered as you have, but you are wrong to say that this is only a traditional or ‘religious circles’ teaching, this is official, full, and entire teaching for every single person.

Let me speak generally.

It is the teaching of the saints, the teachings of basic moral law – you cannot escape it, no matter what your personal emotional experiences are.

In fact, women are sexually attacked far more often nowadays because men are incited to lust by the women around them, and their desires go out of control. It is simple as that. Both are to blame – the man for giving in, the women for inciting.

If you tell a man, ‘Go murder your wife.’ and mean it, and he does, you are an accessory to murder.

If you tell a man, ‘Please look and lust at my body’, and he does, and this goes out of control, you are in fact, partially to blame for the incitement. A hard thing to say but true – you did not want the man to go as far as he did, but you did want him to lust. Or perhaps you did not, perhaps you dressed in a way that incites lust without thinking about it or knowing – this happens. And so all the more one should warn people not to dress that way and make them understand.

It’s a fact of life that seeing an unclad woman incites a man to lust. It’s a fact of life that putting a starving man women or child in a bakery full of fresh cakes out of the oven incites that person to salivate.

So you if you don’t want to salivate, you don’t go into the bakery, or the bakery keeps the doors closed. If you don’t want to be lusted after, you put on enough clothes not to be.

This is called ‘shared responsibility’. The man does his best not to lust, the woman not to cause it.

 

[Christine_Lee]

I don’t like the fact that in some Religious circles women are blamed for the sins of men. I don’t buy that. we should all be responsible for our own sins. If it is wrong for women not to dress up a little for Mass than it should also be a sin for men to have so little regard for what they wear to mass too.

Another thing that really bothers me, is that you are blaming women for the lust in men’s heart. As someone who was sexually raped as a little girl I find your statement offensive and is an example of what I went through as a child being blamed for the acts of a grown man who lusted after a little girl.

I developed before I was in 6th grade. I didn’t even know what sex was and I had older guys and boys in my class treat me as an object of their desire. Instead of making the boys give an account or teach them to treat me with respect as their classmate I was the one who was sent home when my uniform blouse made them have sexual desires because I was more developed than the other girls. Yet, to people like you and the school and to the world it is my fault.

I am sorry but you hit a nerve with you blaming girls and women for the lusts in men.

There is such a thing as self control. I am tired of people making me feel guilty and judging me harshly for things that happen in my childhood, youth, and young adulthood because I was forced to do things I didn’t want to do and forced to sin. People may say why didn’t you ask for help. I did, and the cries went unheard, and people just judged me.

So yes, even in our Catholic Church we have people who like to judge the victim and blame her for the desires of men. Do you think girls and women want to be raped? Do you think we ask for it? There are some guys who don’t even believe date rape exists but that the girl/woman just changed her mind and even though she said no, she ment yes.

I am a regualar Catholic, and if this is what traditional Catholics do and believe that it is the girl/woman fault for men’s lusting after her, than I don’t think I will stay on this board very long.

I am late for work, but you comment of women are responsible for men’s lust opened a old wound.

I can’t say that I share your same pains. But I do have to live with my mother’s boyfriend who is a total pig towards women in general. I hate living with him because he makes the most disturbing remarks towards me and even likes to try to kiss me. And I dress very plainly - jeans and t-shirst most of the time. And to make it worse he thinks it’s more “exciting” that I’m a virgin. I’ve addressed this problem many times to my mother, even with the help of my younger sister, but she refuses to listen.

 

[theistgal]

I can’t say that I share your same pains. But I do have to live with my mother’s boyfriend who is a total pig towards women in general. I hate living with him because he makes the most disturbing remarks towards me and even likes to try to kiss me. And I dress very plainly - jeans and t-shirst most of the time. And to make it worse he thinks it’s more “exciting” that I’m a virgin. I’ve addressed this problem many times to my mother, even with the help of my younger sister, but she refuses to listen.

Dear Christine Lee, if your mother’s boyfriend ever does anything really seriously abusive to you (and frankly, if he’s trying to kiss you that’s pretty close to serious in my book! ), I hope you won’t be afraid to ask someone for help. You may have to go outside your family, and I know that would be hard to do, but please, do it anyway if you get worried. It sounds scary to me, and I hope you don’t mind if I say I’m praying for you!

And I agree with you 100% - it probably wouldn’t matter how “modestly” you were dressing. You could be wearing a burka and he’d probably find that “exciting” too. (And anyone who says Christine Lee is at all responsible for this situation should be ashamed of themselves. )

 

[Shin]

Ditch the jeans for a long skirt. The pants vs. dresses issue aside – they simply cling too close generally.

Also, frankly, the crotches and backsides are emphasized wearing them. They’re pretty much impossible to wear because of this alone, even if you go totally baggy.

He is wrong to say and do as he does, but you too need to look to a wardrobe fix.

 

[DavidPalm]

And I agree with you 100% - it probably wouldn’t matter how “modestly” you were dressing. You could be wearing a burka and he’d probably find that exciting too.

Yes, that’s absolutely true. Given how our society is he’s probably soaked in pornography, so he’s going to have unregulated passions toward just about any women no matter how modestly dressed.

Please do seek serious outside help with this situation, for your own safety.

 

[John_Higgins]

lizaane:

Originally Posted by samcarter14
This section in one of those links posted by the OP caught my eye:

“Our girls should be pursuing lady-like activities and hobbies which will prepare them for marriage and their proper role as mother and wife. They should be learning to sew, embroider, knit, crochet, cook, make rosaries, sing good Catholic songs and other decent, patriotic songs, play musical instruments (we’ll need an organ player eventually for our chapel), paint and draw. Above all they should be learning to talk, dress, sit, walk, stand, kneel, stoop and act like a lady at all times. Our girls have many options open to them, if they will only pursue them in a moral decent manner.”

Our “girls” can pursue whatever options they like. Just ask my sister the retired USAF senior pilot colonel. And she can “talk, dress, sit, walk, stand, kneel, stoop and act like a lady at all times” in a flight suit or a mess dress uniform!

The original poster’s “Catholic Planet” certainly isn’t in this solar system, nor should it be.

John

 

[Lainey63]

I cannot walk through mass with a blindfold on, or life.

Christ refused people for coming to a wedding without proper garments. There is a spiritual meaning to this, but more than one spiritual meaning.

The reason women are more focused on is because women and men are different and have their different vulnerabilities and strengths. Men are more vulnerable to sin through the eyes.

It is a teaching of Christ that it is a sin to lead others into sin. Therefor, women should dress so as not to incite the deadly sin of lust in men. Those who do not dress properly love themselves more than neighbor, and so love themselves more than Christ.

Christ refused people for coming to a wedding without proper garments because at that time the garments were provided by the one hosting the wedding at the place of the party or wedding-which was what they did in those days-so the garment was presented to each guest as they arrived at the wedding and the garment were worn over their clothes…so those who refused to wear what was offered to them were not allowed to the wedding or party. Most women do dress modestly for Mass…but not all have dresses on…I have seen the younger women who come to Mass with dresses or skirts and still be more than half naked…with their butt cheeks hangin’ out…

 

[DavidPalm]

Our “girls” can pursue whatever options they like. Just ask my sister the retired USAF senior pilot colonel. And she can “talk, dress, sit, walk, stand, kneel, stoop and act like a lady at all times” in a flight suit or a mess dress uniform!

The original poster’s “Catholic Planet” certainly isn’t in this solar system, nor should it be.

John

I do think it’s a very viable question whether, in a rightly ordered society, all positions should be open to both genders. I’m thinking, apropos the poster’s comment above, specifically of the military and I personally would say No. But that discussion would likely get heated and is probably best either left alone or at the very least relegated to another thread.