Prophets after Jesus

[Dialogues]

Baha’u’llah commands us not to attack others religion beliefs and try to discredit them.

If quoting from the Baha’i writings is discrediting it, then the attack arises from within.

As Baha’is we are supposed to honor other religions, and welcome how they inspire charity, the improvement of moral character, and spiritual salvation from selfishness and sin.

It is essentially an Islamic teaching that prophets were sent to various people, and that Islam doesn’t have a monopoly on truth. However, this doesn’t mean that each and every religion was from God.

This is why I am a Baha’i - because I do not want to go around finding reasons to throw dirt on others faiths and their inspiration by the divine.

Then you are saying that the dirt arises from within the Baha’i faith. You are in effect admitting that a claim to being God is being made, but you are not happy with such a claim, and consider it to be ‘dirt’. And that was precisely the issue raised, that Mirza Hussain Ali claimed to be God. I invite you to pure faith in the Unseen God. May God guide you aright, Ameen.

There is no need to do this -

Is there no need to determine the nature of the claims of the founder of any faith?

people around the planet from essentially every religion and belief system can be and are inspired by the Holy Spirit to serve the Good.

That may be so in some cases, and may God enable you to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But this does not mean that every religion and belief system is from God Almighty.

Peace.

 

[Matthew_Light]

My friend, why is it that when Bahai are put under the microscope, they will instantly hold up the persecution card, and thus prohibit any further discussion?

How did I or even could I forbid anyone from continuing to argue against the Baha’i Faith?

Only by living a different way for people of different faiths to view one another and their religions, I might encourage others to stop seeing devils and enemies of the truth and deluded souls everywhere in the other belief systems. That is the spirit of the Baha’i Faith - and I see signs of that same spirit at work in many others in this day, especially including the Catholic Church. I will also give great credit to the Sikhs and Guru Nanak for their early understanding of the universality of the divine truth.

I don’t come here because you are wrong and need to be converted to the Baha’i Faith, the one and only true religion. God forbid I held that belief!

I come because Catholics are my brothers and sisters, do great works guided by the Holy Spirit of Christ, and worship God in such beautiful and spiritual ways.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Dialogues,

I would think that an Ahmadiyyah Muslim would know exactly why an approach of not attacking others faiths is the right one for this day!

 

[Dialogues]

Dialogues,
When I think of the Prophets or Manifestations of God, I first think of Them as Divine Instruments fashioned by Him, the Fashioner of all created things. “He doeth what He willeth.”

The stations of the Manifestations of God include the human creature, like ourselves, being born, having to eat, eventually die. When this Holy Personage speaks, it is sometimes the Supplicator speaking to God, but at times, as I understand it, God Himself is speaking through Them, saying “I am God”.

Can you give me an example where any of the prophets clearly claimed ‘I am God’ as Mirza Hussain Ali so clearly did? He clearly claimed divinity rather than prophethood.

Truly, if any of the Prophets of God are from Him, Their Message is but one Message, and Their purpose but one purpose.  Baha'u'llah speaks of this in Gleanings XXII ...  Please comment and continue to "dialogue" ...  ;-)

Prophets can be likened to one another to a degree. We are not to discriminate between prophets as far as belief in them is concerned, but they were sent to different people and their messages had some differences in details to suit their people and their time.

Peace.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Dialogues,

Baha’u’llah explains the relationship between the Manifestation and God here if you are interested and have questions about it:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

 

[Matthew_Light]

Is there no need to determine the nature of the claims of the founder of any faith?

We do not do that by deciding ahead of time that someone is deluded, and then visit attack websites to find reasons to discredit their faith in our eyes.

From what I have seen, Mirza Gulam Ahmad has provided a purification and revitalization of Islam in tune with the needs and requirements of this age.

I would not choose to attack him or his followers or look at anti-Ahmadiyyah websites to try and find negative stuff. I have, however, read such material on my own Faith both before and after enrolling.

 

[Dialogues]

Dialogues,

I would think that an Ahmadiyyah Muslim would know exactly why an approach of not attacking others faiths is the right one for this day!

Why do you consider it to be an attack on the Baha’i faith when they were quotes from your own writings? It is interesting that Christians claim divinity on behalf of Jesus even though he never claimed ‘I am God’, but Bahai’s consider it an attack when various references are given from the writings of their founder where he makes precisely that claim. At least Christians can now clearly see what sort of proof of a claim to divinity is sought from them in the case of Jesus. The Qur’an states:

*[5:116] And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”, he will answer, “Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things.

[5:117] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things. *

Do you think these verses would apply to the writings of the Baha’i founder as they do to Jesus? Is a discussion of the Baha’i faith relevant to the topic of prophets after Jesus, or more relevant to a thread discussing claimants to divinity?

The Qur’an states about those who believe and do good works:

*"… They will worship Me, (and) they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful (or disbelieves) after that, they will be the rebellious." [24:55]. *

Do you associate anything with God Almighty?

Peace.

 

[Servant19]

Dialogues,

Bahaullah clsimed to be the Return of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Father.
He also was assigned the title “Sender of all the Prophets and Revealer of all the Books”
He was the source of revelation for all the Revelations given to the Prophets since Adam.

However, He does not reside in the World of God. He is The Lord of the Kingdom.

To the recipients of all the Abrahamic Revelations, they were permitted to only reveal so much. As you may know, according to the Islamic Tradition, there are 20 and 7 letters of knowledge, and up till Muhammad’s revelation only 2 of these letters were divulged to mankind.

When Baha’u’llah was made manifest, He revealed the remaining 25. It is for this reason that mankind has advanced exponentially and beyond expectation since His declaration in 1863. Look at the advances in the world in the last 150 years and compare that to the advances made in the 2000 years prior to that…

So as you can see mankind was not ready for “everything” when it was immature and in its infancy. Jesus would not divulge all truth and neither would Muhammad.

Part of this truth is that all references to the Father, YHWH, The Lord of Hosts, and Allah are in actuality a reference to Baha’u’llah, and indeed Baha’u’llah confirms this, yet He still confirms categorically that He does not belong in the World of God, that Unknown Essence of Essences.

I pray that this has clarified the Bahai position on this matter somewhat

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[Matthew_Light]

Part of this truth is that all references to the Father, YHWH, The Lord of Hosts, and Allah are in actuality a reference to Baha’u’llah, and indeed Baha’u’llah confirms this, yet He still confirms categorically that He does not belong in the World of God, that Unknown Essence of Essences.

I pray that this has clarified the Bahai position on this matter somewhat

.

We should also realize the distinction between the human being and personality of Mirza Husayn Ali and the Voice which is speaking through him.

 

[Servant19]

We should also realize the distinction between the human being and personality of Mirza Husayn Ali and the Voice which is speaking through him.

Yes, indeed, none of this is related in any way to His physical attributes, or even His human attributes. This is related to the World of the Kingdom, that true reality which emanates from the World of God and is co-eternal with God, yet, unlike God, was created.

This nether world of dust is not true reality. Divinity resides in the Kingdom.



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[Dialogues]

We do not do that by deciding ahead of time that someone is deluded, and then visit attack websites to find reasons to discredit their faith in our eyes.

You don’t seem to deny those quotes. What is required is an explanation of them from your point of view, for which you have been given an opportunity.

From what I have seen, Mirza Gulam Ahmad has provided a purification and revitalization of Islam in tune with the needs and requirements of this age.

He remained loyal to The Word of Allah and the Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a. in so doing.

I would not choose to attack him or his followers or look at anti-Ahmadiyyah websites to try and find negative stuff. I have, however, read such material on my own Faith both before and after enrolling.

I find satisfactory answers to the allegations which are made on anti-Ahmadiyya websites or writings.

Peace.

 

[Servant19]

You don’t seem to deny those quotes.

May I ask which quotes you are referring to now Dialogues please?

.

 

[Dialogues]

As you may know, according to the Islamic Tradition, there are 20 and 7 letters of knowledge, and up till Muhammad’s revelation only 2 of these letters were divulged to mankind.

Where do you get this from?

When Baha’u’llah was made manifest, He revealed the remaining 25. It is for this reason that mankind has advanced exponentially and beyond expectation since His declaration in 1863. Look at the advances in the world in the last 150 years and compare that to the advances made in the 2000 years prior to that…

The advancing world had nothing to do with the Baha’i faith, so how can you claim such an association?

Part of this truth is that all references to the Father, YHWH, The Lord of Hosts, and Allah are in actuality a reference to Baha’u’llah, and indeed Baha’u’llah confirms this,

Are you claiming that all the prophets and their followers in actuality worshipped Mirza Hussain Ali?

yet He still confirms categorically that He does not belong in the World of God, that Unknown Essence of Essences.

Where does he state so?

I pray that this has clarified the Bahai position on this matter somewhat

Thanks for your clarification. What do you think of the following verses?

*[18:14] And We strengthened their hearts, when they stood up and said, ‘Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. Never shall we call upon any god beside Him; if we did, we should indeed have uttered an enormity.

[18:15] ‘These, our people, have taken for worship other gods beside Him. Wherefore do they not bring a clear authority for them? And who is more unjust than he who invents a lie concerning Allah? *

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

May I ask which quotes you are referring to now Dialogues please?

The quotes in my post #245 in which Mirza Hussain Ali categorically claims divinity.

Peace.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dialogues,

Bahaullah clsimed to be the Return of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Father.
He also was assigned the title “Sender of all the Prophets and Revealer of all the Books”
He was the source of revelation for all the Revelations given to the Prophets since Adam.

However, He does not reside in the World of God. He is The Lord of the Kingdom.

To the recipients of all the Abrahamic Revelations, they were permitted to only reveal so much. As you may know, according to the Islamic Tradition, there are 20 and 7 letters of knowledge, and up till Muhammad’s revelation only 2 of these letters were divulged to mankind.

When Baha’u’llah was made manifest, He revealed the remaining 25. It is for this reason that mankind has advanced exponentially and beyond expectation since His declaration in 1863. Look at the advances in the world in the last 150 years and compare that to the advances made in the 2000 years prior to that…

So as you can see mankind was not ready for “everything” when it was immature and in its infancy. Jesus would not divulge all truth and neither would Muhammad.

Part of this truth is that all references to the Father, YHWH, The Lord of Hosts, and Allah are in actuality a reference to Baha’u’llah, and indeed Baha’u’llah confirms this, yet He still confirms categorically that He does not belong in the World of God, that Unknown Essence of Essences.

I pray that this has clarified the Bahai position on this matter somewhat

.

Here’s problem, till you clarify what and exactly your prophet is the “return of Jesus,” such a statement means nothing. It is very vague to someone who doesn’t have an understanding of the Bahai religion and it could mean countless different things which give the wrong impression.

How exactly is your prophet the return of Jesus? What makes him Jesus? You really need to define this.

 

[Servant19]

Here’s problem, till you clarify what and exactly your prophet is the “return of Jesus,” such a statement means nothing. It is very vague to someone who doesn’t have an understanding of the Bahai religion and it could mean countless different things which give the wrong impression.

How exactly is your prophet the return of Jesus? What makes him Jesus? You really need to define this.

Well first of all, He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to thousands upon thousands of devout, high and low status Muslims, that He was Divine in nature. Remember, this is to Muslims, who deny ANY DIVINITY in a human frame.

Then, once that certitude has been established that He is, indeed Divine, all His Words become Truth.

He claims He is the return of Jesus, so be it. There’s a reason why people gave up their lives to shelter themselves beneath the fountains of grace He showered upon all.



.

 

[Servant19]

Where do you get this from?

I’m going to bed now, I’ll find the source for you ASAP

The advancing world had nothing to do with the Baha’i faith, so how can you claim such an association?

The Declaration of Bahaullah was the moment a new heaven and new earth came into existence. EVERYTHING WAS MADE ANEW.

The only reason you can fly from one country to another by plane is because Baha’u’llah uttered the Words “I am” in 1863

Are you claiming that all the prophets and their followers in actuality worshipped Mirza Hussain Ali?

No, not Mirza Husayn Ali, they worshipped Baha’u’llah, the Glory of The Lord.

Where does he state so?

I believe my brother Matthew Light gave you one of several quotes on the previous page of this thread. (#261)

Thanks for your clarification.

You’re welcome my brother in Allah

What do you think of the following verses?

*[18:14] And We strengthened their hearts, when they stood up and said, ‘Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. Never shall we call upon any god beside Him; if we did, we should indeed have uttered an enormity.

[18:15] ‘These, our people, have taken for worship other gods beside Him. Wherefore do they not bring a clear authority for them? And who is more unjust than he who invents a lie concerning Allah? *

Peace.

My understanding is that there is one God, and we, as finite minded human beings are gradually being fed incrementally more profound knowledge of His nature and our relationship with Him, in His own world, independent of all things, and also how we relate with His First Emanation, that Primal Will which is also known as the Kingdom, which from time to time, at the decree of God, manifests a human Temple on this world of dust, to guide us towards our destiny…God



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[openmind77]

…The advancing world had nothing to do with the Baha’i faith, so how can you claim such an association?..

In a post on another thread. a Bahai actually claimed that Bahaullah was responsible for the invention of the internet!!!

Al Gore was at least alive when he claimed something similar - Haha!

But seriously, I think you two should stop arguing. Both Bahaullah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad were Prophets in their own right.

However, neither was divine and anything like a Son of God similar to Jesus. The Bahais are totally deluded to claim any such thing.

 

[Dialogues]

Both Bahaullah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad were Prophets in their own right.

Not possible. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a.s. clearly stated that prophets could only arise among those who remain obedient to the Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a., not those who cease to follow the Qur’an.

However, neither was divine and anything like a Son of God similar to Jesus. The Bahais are totally deluded to claim any such thing.

I think anyone who considers a human being who used to eat food as being God, is deluded. If someone said that an insect was actually a human, it would be considered ridiculous, yet insects and humans are both part of the animal kingdom. God is not physical.

Peace.

 

[openmind77]

Not possible. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a.s. clearly stated that prophets could only arise among those who remain obedient to the Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a., not those who cease to follow the Qur’an.

I think anyone who considers a human being who used to eat food as being God, is deluded. If someone said that an insect was actually a human, it would be considered ridiculous, yet insects and humans are both part of the animal kingdom. God is not physical.

Peace.

I don’t agree with that part about Muhammad and the Koran

Hwoever, all Bahais are indeed obedient to Muhammad and follow the Koran. Bahaullah was also a follower of Muhammad and the Koran (he actually agreed with all Muslims that these were messengers/messages from God after Jesus that supercede the teachings of Jesus)