Proposed architechtural changes

[FAB]

I would DEFINITELY write to the Archbishop to inform him that this is going on. In most dioceses, all renovations must be approved by a diocesan committee, however, once that occurs they don’t go back again for approval. There is a very good chance that Archbishop Dolan has absolutely no idea that such a change is planned. If I were you, I would send him as much information as possible including renderings and so forth.

I would doubt if it would make any difference. The Liturgy documents for these renovations haven’t changed and the committee that reviewd and approved the changes is very likely the same. It appears that the pastor has followed the proper sequence for the project. The first step, before a dime is raised or the first line is drawn is to have the changes approved.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Sure]

I would doubt if it would make any difference. The Liturgy documents for these renovations haven’t changed and the committee that reviewd and approved the changes is very likely the same. It appears that the pastor has followed the proper sequence for the project. The first step, before a dime is raised or the first line is drawn is to have the changes approved.

Peace,
FAB

The liturgy documents are guidelines and are not authoritative in any way. Unfortunately, the archbishop may not have gotten around to cleaning out those who inject bad theology into our churches.

The archbishop should know that someone is planning on a renovation that sounds poorly informed.

 

[FAB]

The liturgy documents are guidelines and are not authoritative in any way. Unfortunately, the archbishop may not have gotten around to cleaning out those who inject bad theology into our churches.

The archbishop should know that someone is planning on a renovation that sounds poorly informed.

??? Documents issued by the church with approval from Rome are not authoritative? Since when? Must have missed that memo.

 

[benedictgal]

??? Documents issued by the church with approval from Rome are not authoritative? Since when? Must have missed that memo.

FAB, there are some documents that had originally received recognitio from Rome but are now in the process of being re-worked: the Roman Missal for English-speaking countries, the Lectionary, etc. These revisions are being done in light of a desire to bring conformity. I’m not sure if Built on Living Stones has the necessary recognitio from Rome or if it is in the same category as Music in Catholic Worship (which was never approved by the entire USCCB–and now, they have to rework the document to bring it in line with Liturgicam Authenticam).

Even as late as 2002, when Redepmtionis Sacramentum came out, and, perhaps as early as 1988, when Pascahalis Sacramentalis (the mandates for Holy Week), Rome has been keeping a serious eye on liturgical developments. Pope John Paul II wouldn’t have called the Synod on the Eucharist if there weren’t serious problems.

 

[Walking_Home]

There’s always a little historical perspective in these documents before it gets to the point. This document is concerned with going to far, as a warning to keep the entire space as sacred. The alter being set apart enough as to keep the sacred but close enough to insure that the congregation is part of the sacrafice. This is the point that I defer to the bishops to make this fine distinction.

“Some responses reported other occurrences, opposed to afore-mentioned Church tradition,which obscure the sense of the sacred and the transcendent character of the sacred mysteries. For example, many new Churches—not to mention older ones after renovation—are built on the fundamental architectural plan of bringing the faithful into close proximity to the altar to ensure visual contact and communication between the celebrant and the assembly.”​

As you can see from statements above—some bishops have done the opposite from Church tradition. Many things have been done in the name of the Council – but in truth it is the road of the “Spirit of Vat II” which has been taken.

 

[benedictgal]

One other thing that I forgot to mention was the fact that you don’t need to see the choir to be led in song. All you need is a good, solid cantor who is placed near the ambo. The choir should not be there to be looked at; they should be there to help sustain the singing and to contribute to the solemnity of the Mass.

 

[ribbit]

The three churches that I regularly attend have excellent choirs. The choir and the cantor lead from the choir loft in the back of the church. There doesn’t seem to be a problem with not being able to see them-we hear them just fine.

 

[benedictgal]

The three churches that I regularly attend have excellent choirs. The choir and the cantor lead from the choir loft in the back of the church. There doesn’t seem to be a problem with not being able to see them-we hear them just fine.

The cantor needs to sing the Psalm response and the Alleluia from the Ambo, though.

 

[FAB]

Sorry Guys, It sounds as though you just want to argue a mute point.
The question was if these changes could be stopped. Since the parish has sought and recieved approval for the changes, I would say no.
The Liturgical Documents are as you said, being revised, and as of yet have not been approved. Most of the changes are to address abuses in the celebration of the mass. As such the current documents are still valid.
Change is often difficult. Over the past year, my parish made changes to our worship space. There were complaints, but once completed, even those who had complained the loudest admitted the changes had enhanced the worship experiance.
Having studied the liturgy documents and the theology that supports them, the renovations sound as though they have been thought out, and in the end will create a space both welcoming and sacred.
Peace,
FAB

 

[benedictgal]

Sorry Guys, It sounds as though you just want to argue a mute point.
The question was if these changes could be stopped. Since the parish has sought and recieved approval for the changes, I would say no.
The Liturgical Documents are as you said, being revised, and as of yet have not been approved. Most of the changes are to address abuses in the celebration of the mass. As such the current documents are still valid.
Change is often difficult. Over the past year, my parish made changes to our worship space. There were complaints, but once completed, even those who had complained the loudest admitted the changes had enhanced the worship experiance.
Having studied the liturgy documents and the theology that supports them, the renovations sound as though they have been thought out, and in the end will create a space both welcoming and sacred.
Peace,
FAB

FAB, if something is quite unsettling and does not seem to conform, then, perhaps, the parishioners do have a right to question. A beautiful church should not be “gutted” and “deformed” for the sake of change, itself. The moving of the tabernacle is a huge Red Flag for me. Putting the choir in the Tabernacle’s space sends the wrong message. Just who are we here to celebrate? God or the faithful.

You can quote documents issued by the USCCB all you want, but, even they’ve gotten it wrong, as Rome has indicated (hence, they are having to clean up a lot of documents). We need to reclaim our sacred heritage, not leave it to the vandals.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

For those interested, here’s the renovations that have taken place at the Milwaukee Cathedral of St. John’s (click on the number for the picture):

stjohncathedral.org/tour/tourmap.htm

At lunchtime I went to St. John’s Cathedral in downtown Milwaukee to take a look myself. The renovations do look similar to what is being described as to what would happen with ours. The choir is indeed behind the altar in that church. The altar is in the center of the church. As I walked in the church, I looked all over the place for the tabernacle and could not find it. When I arrived, there was a concert taking place where someone playing the cello was entertaining the people in the pews. I asked someone if they could direct me to the tabernacle and someone told me to go to the front of the church…off to the side. It’s in an alcove. I said a prayer and asked God to help us emphasize Him more instead of some entertainers as I enter His church.

FAB:

Sorry Guys, It sounds as though you just want to argue a mute point.
The question was if these changes could be stopped. Since the parish has sought and recieved approval for the changes, I would say no.

Actually, that’s not true. I am on a special committee assigned to help us determine how to best use the funds for a capital campaign that is going to take place at our parish. The plan favored by our pastor is the one I outlined with the opening post. If these decisions have already been made, then our pastor is being dishonest with the parish because the plan hasn’t even been brought to our parish council yet. The parish council will be meeting tomorrow evening. I will be bringing my concerns there and address them before anything significant takes place regarding this project.

 

[ribbit]

The cantor needs to sing the Psalm response and the Alleluia from the Ambo, though.

Just for clarification: ‘needs’ as in ‘it is a good idea to do so’ or as in 'GIRM requires it" ?

 

[Rabbititus]

Our church is in the Milwaukee area. I would not say that the church is already aesthetically beautiful (at least in my opinion). I agree that a renovation is needed to our church. It’s the how to go about doing it that needs to be addressed.

For those interested, here’s the renovations that have taken place at the Milwaukee Cathedral of St. John’s (click on the number for the picture):

stjohncathedral.org/tour/tourmap.htm

It should be noted that Archbishop Weakland authorized these changes and is now retired. We now have Archbishop Dolan who may or may not agree with such changes.

I mentioned it mostly because your church is in the Milwaukee area, and it’s possible the renovations are modeled after the cathedral.

I was confirmed in the cathedral after the renovations were made, and as I said it was a very awkward space - the choir gets too much visual focus, a lot of the chairs don’t actually face the altar (and have their backs to the blessed sacrament chapel). What annoyed me most were the chairs - they were shoved so close together that some of the heavier people commented how awkward it was (“I think I like pews better” was one comment) - and it would have been difficult to kneel too. Mostly the renovations don’t jibe well with the historic fabric of the cathedral, which was designed to lead one’s eyes to the old sanctuary (now the choir).

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I mentioned it mostly because your church is in the Milwaukee area, and it’s possible the renovations are modeled after the cathedral…

After visiting this afternoon, I certainly see the similarities with what occurred there and what is being proposed from my OP. Thank you kindly.

Rabbititus:

…it was a very awkward space - the choir gets too much visual focus,

Agreed.

Rabbititus:

…a lot of the chairs don’t actually face the altar (and have their backs to the blessed sacrament chapel).

I noticed that too.

Rabbititus:

What annoyed me most were the chairs - they were shoved so close together that some of the heavier people commented how awkward it was (“I think I like pews better” was one comment) - and it would have been difficult to kneel too.

Our proposal doesn’t mention what would be done with our pews. I would imagine something would be done since it would indeed be a major overhaul.

 

[estesbob]

I mentioned it mostly because your church is in the Milwaukee area, and it’s possible the renovations are modeled after the cathedral.

I was confirmed in the cathedral after the renovations were made, and as I said it was a very awkward space - the choir gets too much visual focus, a lot of the chairs don’t actually face the altar (and have their backs to the blessed sacrament chapel). What annoyed me most were the chairs - they were shoved so close together that some of the heavier people commented how awkward it was (“I think I like pews better” was one comment) - and it would have been difficult to kneel too. Mostly the renovations don’t jibe well with the historic fabric of the cathedral, which was designed to lead one’s eyes to the old sanctuary (now the choir).

Wasnt there a huge fight over relocationg the confessionals when the Cathedral was renovated? A frined of mine had his ordination delayed(Long story) becuase the Bishop of houston was on the wrong side of this issue as far as many cardinals were concerend.

 

[Rabbititus]

Wasnt there a huge fight over relocationg the confessionals when the Cathedral was renovated? A frined of mine had his ordination delayed(Long story) becuase the Bishop of houston was on the wrong side of this issue as far as many cardinals were concerend.

I don’t recall a debate over confessionals specifically, but there was a bit of an uproar over the renovations in general, since it so dramatically re-ordered the space. Before the renovation, the tabernacle was up in the sanctuary under a baldaccino, and there were pews. I never saw it person prior to the renovations, but I heard it was a rather typical traditional style of church that hadn’t been too extensively redone prior to the renovations. There’s a small gallery room one can visit with some of the neat old artifacts from the cathedral’s history, including some pictures of the cathedral as it looked at various times - it was lovely in the 1940’s, after it was rebuilt (it had burned down).

The Milwaukee area church I really want to see now is the Basilica of St. Josephat - the pictures one finds online are amazing!!! The building was restored a few years ago, but it was renovated the right way, IMO.
%between%

 

[benedictgal]

Just for clarification: ‘needs’ as in ‘it is a good idea to do so’ or as in 'GIRM requires it" ?

It’s in both the 2nd and 3rd (2002) editions of the GIRM.

 

[quiet52]

I haven’t read all the posts, so I don’t know if the issue of a new confessional was discussed. No matter where the confessional will be placed, make sure it’s “boxed” – not open-air – because people WILL worry that they or the priest will be overheard.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Our parish has recently proposed (pending parish council review) to use the funds of a capital campaign to renovate our church. A proposal favored by our pastor is to build a narthex and then in conjunction with this addition make the following renovations:

• New entrance to the church or narthex area.
• Possibly new baptismal font.
• New reconciliation room (possibly in old baptistry under tower).
• Move altar and ambo into Nave of church creating a new and closer sanctuary to the people.
• Move cantor, choir, and musician’s area to former altar area.
• Move tabernacle to area of former choir area. Add image of Divine Mercy to be above tabernacle.
• Remake former confessionals into shrine areas.
• Create more storage area for environment.
• Make sanctuary area handicap accessible…
  …Any prayers or comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

It’s been nearly a year since I posed this topic and I thought I would give an update. The renovation project has been brought to the parish council for approval and I am happy to report that the proposal does not consist of moving the tabernacle off to the side. Thank you all who were praying regarding this. Here’s the summary brought to council for final approval:

• Main level gathering space that would function as the entrance to the church as well as a main floor “church hall” for events such as funeral luncheons and pancake breakfasts. Also includes catering kitchen, restrooms, elevator, multipurpose vesting room, choir storage, and other space to be determined. The tower would remain and become a reconciliation chapel.
• Lower level would be Christian Formation center with eight classrooms, and a large community space for 250 people to gather. The classrooms would also be used for meetings.
• Church renovations would include the remodeling of the sanctuary. Moving altar towards the nave (approximately to the current communion rail), building a new sanctuary platform which is handicap accessible, creation of a Eucharistic reservation area behind altar, possible move of baptistry.
  The two items I highlighted in red were the areas of most concern. The original plan called for moving the altar into the nave of the church whereas now the altar is moved towards the nave - big difference. Also, the tabernacle (Eucharistic reservation area) will be placed behind the altar instead of the original plan to move it to where the choir currently is (which is off to the side of the church).

Thanks again for the prayers - and they are still needed as the project still has a long way to go. This new development has given me much peace.

 

[japhy]

Church renovations would include the remodeling of the sanctuary. Moving altar towards the nave (approximately to the current communion rail), building a new sanctuary platform which is handicap accessible, creation of a Eucharistic reservation area behind altar, possible move of baptistry.

Is it really that hard to see and hear what happens in the sanctuary and at the altar? Sigh.