The history of the CoJCoLDS is available for scrutiny mostly because LDS preserved it, commented on it, and studied it. Counter-cultists have now taken it upon themselves to tease out the most salacious details and present them as representative.
- The truth of mormonism if founded on a testimony of their BoM and their founder, Joseph Smith. The truth of Christianity is based on Christ.
Actually, LDS and Catholics base their religion upon Christ as we understand him to have manifested himself. For the LDS this includes extra-Biblical scripture and ordained leaders. For the Catholic this includes the Bible, Tradition, and to a certain extent ordained leaders.
It is the Protestants who have departed from the original faith in that they reject all but the Bible.RebeccaJ:
- Their secret temple ceremony (endowment) was once, word for word, the same as a Freemason ceremony of the same period. They have since changed the wording of the ceremony.
You are in fact mistaken.
It is clear to me that Freemasonry contributed to the Temple ceremony in traceable (word for word, phrase for phrase) ways.
There are also departures from Freemasonry that can be shown to have ancient echoes.
If one insists that taking something from a possibly pagan source (freemasonry) invalidates a religion, then Catholicism and Protestantism (even the JWs and Seventh Day Adventists) will fall upon this sword.
- False prophets: Previous mormon prophets have taught false doctrines, these include: Adam is God, humans with dark skin bear the Mark of Cain, blood atonement (some sins must be atoned by blood). Current mormons of course do not believe these to be “truths” about mormonism. That does not change the fact that this something one of their prophets taught as “truth”.
There are a few issues here. First, the LDS is not infallibable. Mistakes have been made. LDS prophets have taught different things. These are at the fringes of the religion and would not be something the LDS in the pew would know anything about if anti-cultists had not brought it up.
Popes of course have the charism of infallibility. I can defend this from Protestant attacks as well as most here, but it is more problematic IMO than errors by non-infallible LDS leaders.RebeccaJ:
- mormons have many unusual beliefs about God that you won’t be told about by mormons until after you have joined their church…they don’t want to scare you off…they call this practice “milk before meat”. One has been mentioned (men can become gods). Also, there is God the Father has a tangible body of flesh and bone, God lives on a planet near the star Kolob, God has at least one wife “heavenly Mother” (google it). She is so holy that she is not described in any scripture and she is not worshipped, there are many gods ruling over their own worlds, Jesus and Satan are brothers to each other and to us all, Jesus was conceived by God the Father and Mary via sexual intercourse, the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, USA,
All of the above are discussed in Ostler’s book and many other places with the exception of the “sexual intercourse.” This is rejected by most LDS as not being true. I do not believe it myself.RebeccaJ:
- to the social network - it is a very good network,but it is only there for active mormons…Christ taught that we should reach out to those not like us…con: exlusiveness
This is also untrue. There clearly is a network of support, but there are numerous outreach programs. LDS have vacillated in the degree to which they publicize these efforts.
Charity, TOm
Thank you, I’m very glad to hear that. I’m living in Utah and some have told me that it could happen (I didn’t want to believe it).
My Catholic parents commented that Catholics told them that I would disown them as I became a LDS.
catholic.com/library/problems_with_the_book_of_mormon.asp
Thank you as well… this is a horrible thought and I’m pleased that it seems to be a mistake on my part.
RebeccaJ, you are in fact mistaken. The internet has thrust aspects of LDS history that counter-cultist wish to highlight to the front of the discussion. There is very little original scholarship on the CoJCoLDS published on the internet. What is available is reproduced from books and articles written largely by LDS who were interested in the history. The Journal of Discourses where we can read about things Brigham Young said that make us cringe was written by LDS, preserved by LDS, and published by LDS. Thousands of pages paint the picture of an amazing man with many very Christian ideas. A several dozen quotes show that BY was not an orthodox Christian (and that he believed different than most LDS believe today). But it was not the internet that preserved this.
I am first a theist, because I KNOW God.
Are you suggesting that Paganism has not influenced the Catholic Church? Cardinal Newman would disagree with you. Have you read Newman?
I did not view Whyme as asking for reinforcements. I was posting here long before you were BTW.
It is truly my opinion that you left a religion you did not understand as well as one would desire. Unlike Keating, I do not wish to say that your misperceptions are a product of your angst, but I maintain that a proper understanding of Mormonism allows for prophets who are not infallible.
I personally usually say, “only when speaking on faith and morals, from the Chair of Peter, and conforming to the Tradition of the Church”. Without Chair of Peter your statement falls apart.
This is one of your less objectionable statements. To be a LDS IMO is not to “believe right.” I would suggest that the emphasis upon orthodoxy present in Catholicism is a development not a product of the apostolic church.
If I provide non-LDS news stories about LDS helping with Katrina or California forest fires or … will you retract your statement? What about huge aid sent to tsunami victims?
These publications were not widely available and most mormons would have never gone looking for them. I grew up in a mormon home. I know the books that were there. I know what I was taught in church and seminary.
Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is inallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets. God promises in LDS scripture (e.g. D&C 1:39) that when prophets speak as prophets they speak God’s words. It is also a reasonable expectation. Prophets that utter false doctrine or prophesies cannot be trusted and a true prophet must be trustworthy as God’s mouthpiece. False utterances destroy that trustworthiness. It is no good to say contemporary prophets teach the truth to us today and correct the false utterances of past prophets since future prophets might correct the false utterances of contemporary prophets. How then do we trust the prophet today? If prophets can utter falsities, then contemporary prophets could utter falsities. They therefore cannot be trusted. We must go to some other source for truth, and if so, we do not then need prophets, even if we seek illumination for the whole Church. If prophets can utter falsities, then we cannot know whether he speaks for God. Prophets must speak infallibly when pronouncing doctrine or they cannot be trusted.
From the very limited exposure I have had to your thoughts on Catholicism (concerning infallibility), I would suggest that the books are available for you concerning Catholicism too, but you have not sought them out.
It is unfortunate when any religion fails to introduce its adherent to God. It is seldom solely a product of the religion and the other.
I do not believe that you “made up” what you claim to have been taught. I do believe that 20 years ago sermons on “blood atonement” did not occur. Sermons on “divine fornication” did not occur. So when you speak of this as if it was somehow a integral part of the church, I find this problematic.
But that is gone from me. Since I found the True God, and His Loving ways, the anger I had with mormonism is gone. But I do not, as you and every mormon would wish, remain silent. I don’t go looking for mormons, ever, to tell them that they are wrong, or misled, as I truly believe you are. But when mormons come here, posting half-truths, blatantly proselytizing and trying to portray mormonism as Christian, when it is not, I will speak out.
As I told RebeccaJ, I can defend Papal Infallibility. I know about Honorius, Liberius, and …. About John XII and ….
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
Do you believe that just because I left your church, that I forgot everything I was taught?
I have read Newman. An influence of different cultures does not make Catholicism a pagan religion.
My mistake. Your timing was on the heals of whyme’s postings at madb.
I was raised a mormon, went to church every Sunday, primary every Thursday (until the block change), MIA every Tuesday, Seminary every day.
your statement falls apart.ex cathedra then.
Then you already know that Christ appointed no prophet as his successor. He appointed apostles. The Bishop of Rome is the successor, in the truest sense that mormons deny out of need to have that great apostasy.
You would be wrong. From the “Orthodoxy” entry at New Advent:
As I said, at the local level. If it were just little old me, outside of any large natural disaster, and I went to whoever is the local bishop, I know that whatever “charity” was given would be at a price…missionaries at my door.
When it comes to disasters, or international needs, yes, I see this and believe it about the mormon church. At the local ward level, no, I don’t.
Tom i have seen you comment on Jonah twice and would like to note that you appear to be ignoring the fact that Nineveh repented enmasse which is the cause of God relenting the destruction of the place. God had told Jonah in no uncertain terms that he intended to destry Nineveh, but relented when the entire population at the urging of their leaders donned sackcloth and ashes and repented of the sins that caused God to be angry. According to my own learnings on this book, the story is about Jonah and his attitude rather than about a prophecy of Nineveh, which may be mythological along the lines of Job, though I accept it as fact.