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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I think you are confusing listening with speaking. Please reread the passage you quoted.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I admire your sense of sarcastic humor, Zerinus, and am not offended by it.… However, since you seem to be fond of dialogs, I have created a nice one for you this time. I hope you will like it:
HS. Hey, Socrates, what do you think of the Book of Mormon?Soc. That is what I have been wondering about. I like to know if it is true or not.HS. What have you done to discover that truth for yourself?Soc. Not a lot. I seem to be running around in circles, without getting anywhere.HS. Have you tried reading it?Soc. No!HS. Why not? I should have thought that was the right place to start.Soc. I have not read it because I was afraid that if I read it, I might be deceived.HS. Paul says, “***Prove ***all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thes 5:21). “Prove” means to test, try, examine. Do you think you can “test,” “try,” or “examine” the Book of Mormon without actually reading it?Soc. Hmmm, I suppose not!
HS. Now that was a stupid thing to do! Those people are obvious enemies of Mormonism, and they are not going to have anything good to say about it, are they?Soc. I suppose not!HS. When you read the Koran, you weren’t afraid of being deceived, were you?Soc. No!HS. Why should the Book of Mormon be any different?Soc. I suppose it shouldn’t be!HS. How do you know that those apostates and anti-Mormons who have been whispering to you are not the biggest deceivers of all? How do you know they are not serving the devil, and you have been deceived by them?Soc. Hmmm. I hadn’t thought of it that way before!
Regarding the question of how the Holy Ghost reveals the truth, i’m reminded of this: When Jesus was brought before the Roman Governor Pilot, he asked Him, “What is truth?” I think it is a good question to ask, or perhaps a better one might be, “How do i know when i have found truth?” Finding the answer to this question is paramount to discerning the truth from lies. For, if i do not know what the truth is, or what the best method is for receiving it, how will i know when i have it? That is why i kept asking you how you know you have found the truth.
Before i can know what the truth about the Book of Mormon is, i have to know how to recognize truth when i see it. The Holy Ghost is telling me that the truth is true if it agrees with the words of Jesus, and that He speaks this truth to me by reminding me of what Jesus said.
If you do not also believe this, then why do you quote what Jesus said as an attempt to prove that what i believe is untrue?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I think it would help me to see your point of view, Zerinus, if you would point out one thing the Holy Ghost said in my conversation with Him that is not true, and explain why it is a lie.
T
truthsilence
Guest
Could you please explain further? It seems you are arguing semantics.
I said:
You replied:
Communication from man to God or from God to man? How does one think without words? Or act without action? Are you speaking of how we experience God in our lives through feelings or affectivity?
:idea: Perhaps you are speaking of the fruits of the Spirit?
I said:
You replied:
What exactly is it that you don’t agree with? That God has revealed Himself through Creation? History? Persons, or Society? Through Reason? Where has he NOT revealed himself in these ways? In the Bible? In the Book of Mormon?
Do you not agree that the Bible is a place where divine revelation is particularly clear?
Do you not agree that Jesus Christ is God’s self-revelation?
Please, think about what it is you don’t agree with and try to explain it to me. No rush.
Peace,
Tami
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zerinus
Guest
Now that is quite amazing. I don’t know of one instance recorded in the Bible, OT or NT, where someone has had to grapple with that question before accepting God’s true religion. The greatest day of conversion mentioned in the Bible was on the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Ghost was poured on the Twelve Apostles, and Peter preached a powerful sermon to the Jews as a result of which around three thousand were converted. But what was the basis of their conversion? Was it the philosophical question of “How do I know when I have found truth?” No it wasn’t! This is the basis on which they were converted:
Acts 2:
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Did you get that? The basis of their conversion was on being “pricked in their hearts,” and “receiving His word;” not on answering some absurd philosophical question. What makes you so different from the rest? I fear that you are looking for an alien religion, or one that does not exist on earth. You want to do religion on your own terms, not on God’s terms. You want a religion whose rules you want to determine yourself, rather than determined by God. That will never happen. If you found such a religion, it will not be God’s religion. It will be a false religion from some other source.
You are going round and round in circles, I believe knowingly and intentionally. I have never questioned or disputed any of that.
zerinus
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I think it would help me to see your point of view, Zerinus, if you would point out one thing the Holy Ghost said in my conversation with Him that is not true, and explain why it is a lie.
R
RAR
Guest
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zerinus
Guest
I think that I have carried out the dialog of the deaf with you long enough. I think the best way that I can help you from now on is to let you work things out for yourself, rather than me having to answer all your questions.I think it would help me to see your point of view, Zerinus, if you would point out one thing the Holy Ghost said in my conversation with Him that is not true, and explain why it is a lie.
zerinus
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I believe, then, it would be wise for me to follow Paul’s advice:
Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
(Romans 3:4)
For, the Holy Ghost reminds me of Jesus’ words:
“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
(John 14:25-26)
Yet, you appear to be telling me that the Holy Spirit will *never *speak to me by means of reminding me of what Jesus said. I think i should believe Jesus, rather than you. What do you think?
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zerinus
Guest
I have never made such a claim, or even implied it. That proves that you are either a wicked liar; or you have an incredible capacity for self-deception. In either case, that makes you a very unreliable individual to deal with.
zerinus
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I see i must apologize again, Zerinus, for misunderstanding you. Rather than my try to guess what you believe and getting it wrong, i hope you will help me out by just telling me plainly.
Do you believe the Holy Ghost reveals the truth by reminding a person of the words of Jesus, or by some other means, or by both?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Very truly i say to you, Zerinus, that i’m not being dishonest with you. I do not see how i am self-deceived, although i am open to this possibility. That is why i asked you to point out what the Holy Ghost said to me that is untrue. I do understand, as the writer of Hebrews tells me, that “it is impossible for God to lie.” If you were to show me what lie this Spirit fed me, then i would know it was not the Holy Ghost, but my own mind, or some deceiving spirit.
The most important thing He said to me is that He speaks to me through intelligible words, by reminding me of what Jesus said. I’m glad to see that you and i agree that this is the truth. I think this would be a good place for us to begin coming to an agreement, because it is an important teaching of Christ on which we agree. I hope you will agree.
I also agree with you that i am guilty of having an incredible capacity. Yet, i think it is not one of self-deception as much as one of misunderstanding, for i have certainly not understood what you have believe very well. Again, i hope you will accept my apology, and i hope you are willing to continue our conversation to see on what else we can agree.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Zerinus:
I think what you are saying is that if i will read the Book of Mormon and ask God whether it is true, the Holy Ghost will show me it is true by “pricking my heart” or giving me a sense of guilt over doubting it’s truth? I have no clear idea if this is what you are trying to tell me or not.
If you will not answer, i will not blame you. I realize that i, like the ancient Socrates said of himself, have a way of driving men to their wits end by the questions i ask. I think, however, that asking questions is no sin if one, like myself, is genuinely seeking the truth and not just playing games. As i said, i am seriously seeking the truth, for my eternal destiny is at stake. Please do not mistake my having fun with words as a lack of seriousness.
When you say i am deceived in my conversations with the Holy Ghost, do you mean i am correctly understanding what Jesus said but misunderstanding to whom He said it? That is, do you believe that the Holy Ghost only speaks to Mormons in the way i think He speaks to me, and, since i am no Mormon, i must be deceived in thinking He is really speaking to me?
If you will not answer my questions, i hope that some other Mormon will be kind enough to do so.
P
PattyPryor
Guest
I thought the bible said not to trust your feelings?
E
East_Anglican
Guest
Mormons trust their feelings and it makes them feel superior.
X
xmormon
Guest
Honesty is of utmost importance if one is ever to see the truth about Mormonism. I was once a rabid Mormon defender however, the truth about the Book of Abraham admitted to by the LDS church and several Egyptologists left me shaking my head at what an obvious fraud Joseph Smith really was. Briefly, according to LDS writers, the “Book of Abraham” was supposed to have been written on papyrus by Abraham about 4,000 years ago. This very same papyrus, it is claimed, was acquired by Joseph Smith from an antiquities dealer in 1835. Smith translated the papyrus and published it under the title, “The Book of Abraham.” It was accepted by the Mormon Church as Scripture and is now published as part of the Pearl of Great Price - one of the four standard works of the church.
Many problems have now arisen due to these claims
“The record of Abraham and Joseph, found with the mummies [sic] is beautifully written… I have given a brief history of the manner in which the writings of the fathers, Abraham and Joseph, have been preserved, and how I came in possession of the same - a correct translation of which I shall give in its proper place.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, pp. 348, 350-51)
“The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, page 238)
"October 1. -This afternoon I labored on the Egyptian alphabet… during the research, the principles of astronomy as understood by Father Abraham and the ancients unfolded to our understanding, the particulars of which will appear hereafter. (Ibid., page 286)
Tuesday, [Nov.] 24. - … In the afternoon we translated some of the Egyptian records …
Thursday, 26. - Spent the day in translating Egyptian characters from the papyrus… (Ibid., page 320)
At the beginning of the handwritten manuscript of the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith asserted that it was a “Translation of the Book of Abraham written by his own hand upon papyrus and found in the catacombs of Egypt.”
Many problems have now arisen due to these claims
- LDS egyptologists and others now can read the papyrus Joseph Smith claimed was the book of Abraham written on by Abraham himself. They all agree that it is not the book of Abraham and doesn’t even mention Abraham. It is a common egyptian funeral text call the book of breathings etc. The LDS church admitted this in their magazine, The Ensign, July 1988, pp. 51-53, Michael Rhodes (an LDS Egyptologist)tried to answer the following question: "Why doesn’t the translation of the Egyptian papyri, match the text of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price? In this article Michael Rhodes clearly laid out the problem which faced the church: “First of all, from paleographic and historical considerations, the Book of Breathings papyrus can reliably be dated to around A.D. 60 - much too late for Abraham to have written it… when one compares the text of the book of Abraham with a translation of the Book of Breathings; they clearly are not the same.” "Before I start, let me say that I… like you, definitely favor the second; namely that Joseph Smith did not have the actual text of the Book of Abraham before him… There is no doubt that the original Papyrus of Facsimile Number1 belongs to the Book of Breathings text. The name of the owner of the Papyrus, Hor son of Userwer, is found both on this papyrus and in the text of the Book of Breathings… although we do not have the original of Facsimile Number 3, the name Hor can clearly be read in the hieroglyphs on this facsimile, and it seems very probable that this illustration was originally located at the end of the Book of Breathings papyrus now in the Church’s possession. I am not ruling it out completely, but I think it is unlikely that Joseph Smith ever had the actual text of the Book of Abraham in his possession… " The RLDS church took the Book of Abraham out of their cannon of scripture because it was an obvious fraud.
- Joseph Smith made a book called “Egyptian alphabet and Grammar” This book was a key he used in translating the papyrus. IN this book he had a column of Egyptian caracters on the left and to the right he gave a translation. Sometimes Joseph translated one symbol into a half chapters of words when in reality one symbol was never more than one word or a short phrase. Now Egyptologists can read this and all agree that Joseph Smith’s translation was completely false. Not even one word matched. 3. LDS apologists came up with the argument that Joseph Smith didn’t have the book of Abraham and didn’t translate the papyrus but God gave him a revelation instead. The problems with these arguments is Joseph Smith repeatedly said he translated the book in official LDS history (see exact references below) and the original foreword to the book said it was taken from papyrus written upon by the hand of Abraham himself. . 4. Facsimile translations are completely false. Example, in the book a picture depicts a man lying on a table with another man standing over him and a bird hovering above. Joseph Smith said this was Abraham on an alter about to be sacrificed by one of the Egyptian priests, the bird was an angel sent to deliver him etc. All Egyptologists know this actually represents a man being mummified and prepared for entrance into the Egyptian after life.
“The record of Abraham and Joseph, found with the mummies [sic] is beautifully written… I have given a brief history of the manner in which the writings of the fathers, Abraham and Joseph, have been preserved, and how I came in possession of the same - a correct translation of which I shall give in its proper place.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, pp. 348, 350-51)
“The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, page 238)
"October 1. -This afternoon I labored on the Egyptian alphabet… during the research, the principles of astronomy as understood by Father Abraham and the ancients unfolded to our understanding, the particulars of which will appear hereafter. (Ibid., page 286)
Tuesday, [Nov.] 24. - … In the afternoon we translated some of the Egyptian records …
Thursday, 26. - Spent the day in translating Egyptian characters from the papyrus… (Ibid., page 320)
At the beginning of the handwritten manuscript of the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith asserted that it was a “Translation of the Book of Abraham written by his own hand upon papyrus and found in the catacombs of Egypt.”
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