Pros and Cons of Mormonism

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And remember that the storyline makes much better sense when one thinks of the time-period 980AD to 1475AD. 😃 Especially the part where Jesus comes to NorthAmerica.The timing is exactly right with sacramentality from the settlements on Greenland.😃
 
Jerusha said:
:coffeeread: Well, if you skim it first and cross out all the preaching and quotes from the Bible, it does go faster. :whistle:

Make some effort to get some background first by researching authorship issues. Most rational people nowadays are in agreement that it was a team effort involving extensive plaigirism. These maps are a great help:
solomonspalding.com/docs2/vernP3.htm#pg6061
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Those maps, and the place names, are truly amazing.

Paul
 
Jerusha said:
And remember that the storyline makes much better sense when one thinks of the time-period 980AD to 1475AD. 😃 Especially the part where Jesus comes to NorthAmerica.The timing is exactly right with sacramentality from the settlements on Greenland.😃
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Jerusha, could you please dumb this down for me? I’m smiling, but i have no idea why. :D:cool:
 
One of the sources for the Book of Mormon appears to be an account of the Viking settlements on Greenland, and their effect on the Natives of the Northeast corner of North America.

In 1052 a Bishop was appointed, bringing sacramentality to North America. The peculiar pre-Christian Christianity in the Book of Mormon happened in many places, the news of Jesus generally preceeding sacramentality.

In 1421, many of the Greenland settlers left for Denmark. Again this matches with Hagoth’s departure. The remaining survivors drifted through the Great Lakes, and eventually assimilated with the Native population.

We DO know a lot about it. We are not idiots.
 
Jerusha said:
One of the sources for the Book of Mormon appears to be an account of the Viking settlements on Greenland, and their effect on the Natives of the Northeast corner of North America.

In 1052 a Bishop was appointed, bringing sacramentality to North America. The peculiar pre-Christian Christianity in the Book of Mormon happened in many places, the news of Jesus generally preceeding sacramentality.

In 1421, many of the Greenland settlers left for Denmark. Again this matches with Hagoth’s departure. The remaining survivors drifted through the Great Lakes, and eventually assimilated with the Native population.

We DO know a lot about it. We are not idiots.
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Thank you. I think I need to learn more about what you’re speaking of. I don’t know anything about it. I think I must be an idiot. :o :confused:
 
I tried to link to the article, but couldn’t.

I don’t think you are an idiot. Just go ahead and find sources about Tecumseh’s speeches, and the Viking colonies on
Greenland, and you will do fine.

%between%
 
Jerusha said:
I tried to link to the article, but couldn’t.

I don’t think you are an idiot. Just go ahead and find sources about Tecumseh’s speeches, and the Viking colonies on
Greenland, and you will do fine.

%between%
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I did a search earlier am reading and trying to understand. Thanks Jerusha.
 
Oh, good. You found it. It has been a long time since the link was posted. There are a lot of things I would change about it if I could, but that should cover the subject.
 
Jerusha said:
Oh, good. You found it. It has been a long time since the link was posted. There are a lot of things I would change about it if I could, but that should cover the subject.
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Jerusha,

Are you saying Joseph & Co had access to these accounts and utilized them to promote their racist/religious agenda’s? The racism breaks my heart and I am still trying to understand the rest, as relates to the BofM, Joseph Smith, etc.
 
Zerinus: Here is what the Spirit had to say. If He does not speak the truth, please explain why He does not.

Holy Spirit. Socrates! Socrates!

Socrates. Speak, for your servant is listening. {1}

HS. Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your mind? {2}

Soc. Zerinus tells me that what i thought is you speaking is merely my own mind.

HS. What do you think? {3}

Soc. Well, i’ve believed a lie before, but i’m pretty sure you are speaking the truth to me now. Still, i do not know how to be certain.

HS. So, he says you are deceived?

Soc. Yes.

HS. Shall we test this spirit to see whether it is true? {4}

Soc. Lets do!

HS. Very well, then. Do you believe that as a follower of Jesus you should walk as He did? {5}

Soc. Most certainly.

HS. Then, you also believe that you should deal with deception the same way He did?

Soc. Sounds like a plan!

HS. Yes, and a good one! Let us, then, look at Jesus’ temptation in the desert before He began to do what the Father sent Him to do. Do you recall the event?

Soc. Yes, as you are reminding me, Jesus made a vow to fast and the devil tempted Him to break that vow by saying something like, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” {6}

HS. Yes, and what was Jesus’ reply?

Soc. “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” {7} So, how did Jesus resist the deception?

Soc. By remembering what the Scriptures said.
 
HS. Yes, and when the devil took Him to the highest point of the Jewish Temple and dared Him to obey the Scriptures by jumping to the ground, {8} what did the Tempter say, and what was Jesus’ reply?

Soc. I believe the devil quoted Scripture as saying that God would not allow Him to be harmed, but would protect Him. {9} Jesus, knowing the Scriptures, knew that Satan had misquoted them, for the Old Testament actually said that God would protect Christ “in all His ways”. {10} That is, the Father would make sure Jesus accomplished what He came to earth to do.

HS. True, Satan often misquoted Scripture to try to deceive Christ, and those who might be persuaded by Him. Jesus’ reply to this attempt to deceive was to quote Scripture {11} once more: “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”{12}

Soc. Yes, i remember now. So, what you are saying to me is that i can prove to myself, and others, that i am not under some deception. All i have to do is show that what i believe you have said to me is what the Bible actually says?

HS. Sounds like a plan!

Soc. And a good one! With this as our goal, where shall we begin?

HS. Why not begin at the passage of Scripture Zerinus gave you and believes you have misunderstood?

Soc. Yes, why not?

HS. Do you recall the words?

Soc. “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking from what is Mine and making it known to you.” {13}

HS. What does Zerinus say is the meaning of these words?

Soc. I believe he says that you will guide me into all truth by giving me a strong feeling of conviction.

HS. Do you find the word conviction anywhere in these words of your Lord and Savior?

Soc. No, now that you mention it, i do not.
 
HS. How, then, do these words say that I will guide you?

Soc. By speaking?

HS. Speaking what?

Soc. What you, the Holy Spirit, hear from Jesus?

HS. Yes, and from the Father.

Soc. Yes.

HS. And when a person speaks, does He speak with our without words?

Soc. With!

HS. Yes, one cannot speak without words. Now, should we not look at the wider context of what Jesus said to make sure we are not misinterpreting His words?

Soc. Yes, lets.

HS. “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.” {14} Who is this Counselor, and how does He communicate to you?

Soc. The Counselor is you, and you communicate by testimony.

HS. And when you, Socrates, testify, do you communicate with or without words?

Soc. Well, my actions certainly might prove the sincerity to my words, but words are certainly required for a testimony.

HS. So, do i give testimony by my actions and words, or by some other means?

Soc. By your actions and words.

HS. True. Now consider these words of Jesus: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” {15} Are you one of Jesus’ sheep, and how does the Good Shepherd communicate with you?

Soc. Yes, i am! and He communicates to me with His voice.

HS. And does a voice speak without words?

Soc. {Laughing warmly} No!

HS. {Laughing warmly, too} Then, how do you hear His still, small voice? {16}

Soc. I’m not sure. Please tell me how.

HS. Remember what Jesus also said: “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” {17} What does your Redeemer say is the way He communicates with you?

Soc. By the words He spoke, which are recorded in the Bible, the words of which you remind me. Yes, the truth is crystal clear to me now. Thank you!

HS. Should we three pray and thank God the Father?

Soc. Yes, we should. But who will pray with us?

HS. The Son of God.

Soc. Yes, lets thank God the Father together.

HS. Father, we thank you that you have heard us. {18} We know that you always hear us, but we pray this for the benefit of those who hear us pray, that they may believe that you speak the words of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. May they hear you not by their own might, nor by some human power, but by your Spirit. {19} For you granted your Son authority over all people that He might give eternal life to all those you have given him. And this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. {20} Father, sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. {21}

Soc. Amen.

  1. *]1 Samuel 3:10
    *]Luke 24:38
    *]Matthew 17:25
    *]1 John 4:1
    *]1 John 2:6
    *]Matthew 4:3
    *]Matthew 4:4
    *]Matthew 4:5
    *]Matthew 4:6
    *]Psalm 91:11-12
    *]Deuteronomy 6:16
    *]Matthew 4:7
    *]John 16:12-14
    *]John 15:26-27
    *]John 10:27-28
    *]1 Kings 19:12
    *]John 14:25-26
    *]John 11:41
    *]Zechariah 4:6
    *]John 17:2-3
    *]John 17:17
 
Okay, Socrates, I have read through your boring dialog; and I can assure you that it is not a conversation with the Holy Ghost. Your capacity for self-deception appears to be greater than I had thought. I can even prove it this time. The Holy Ghost is also known as the “Spirit of truth”. That means that it cannot lie, endorse or approve a lie, or get involved in a dialog containing lies without exposing and disapproving it. Your “dialog” contains falsehoods which you purport the Holy Spirit approving of. Here is one:
HS. What does Zerinus say is the meaning of these words?
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Soc. I believe he says that you will guide me into all truth by giving me a strong feeling of conviction.
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HS. Do you find the word conviction anywhere in these words of your Lord and Savior?
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Soc. No, now that you mention it, i do not.
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This is falsehood. I have never said that the way in which the Holy Ghost gives someone a testimony is by giving them a “conviction”. In fact, I have strictly avoided explaining to you precisely how the Holy Ghost testifies to someone that the Book of Mormon is true, notwithstanding your protestations. That is the one question to which you have repeatedly attempted to obtain an answer from me; and which I have repeatedly refused to answer. Now you are putting words in my mouth by imagining up some explanation which you want to attribute to me. The Holy Spirit would not have approved of that. Here is something else you said:
HS. And when a person speaks, does He speak with our without words?
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Soc. With!
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HS. Yes, one cannot speak without words. Now, should we not look at the wider context of what Jesus said to make sure we are not misinterpreting His words?
Click to expand...
Soc. Yes, lets.
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HS. And when you, Socrates, testify, do you communicate with or without words?
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Soc. Well, my actions certainly might prove the sincerity to my words, but words are certainly required for a testimony.
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That is rubbish. The Holy Ghost can communicate thoughts and ideas to our minds without using “words”. One good example is this:

Mark 2:

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

“Perceived in his spirit” means that He know what they were thinking within His own mind, without the use of “words”. Another good example is Matthew 16:17, which you already know about. I don’t know what you hope to achieve by dreaming up this kind of stuff, and attributing it to the Holy Ghost. However, since you seem to be fond of dialogs, I have created a nice one for you this time. I hope you will like it:

HS. Hey, Socrates, what do you think of the Book of Mormon?

Soc. That is what I have been wondering about. I like to know if it is true or not.

HS. What have you done to discover that truth for yourself?

Soc. Not a lot. I seem to be running around in circles, without getting anywhere.

HS. Have you tried reading it?

Soc. No! :o

HS. Why not? I should have thought that was the right place to start.

Soc. I have not read it because I was afraid that if I read it, I might be deceived.

HS. Paul says, “***Prove ***all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thes 5:21). “Prove” means to test, try, examine. Do you think you can “test,” “try,” or “examine” the Book of Mormon without actually reading it?

Soc. Hmmm, I suppose not! :o

HS. So why are you afraid of reading the Book of Mormon?

Soc. The truth is that Mormon apostates and anti-Mormons have been whispering to me that if I read it and pray about it, I will be deceived; and I have been listening to them! 😊

HS. Now that was a stupid thing to do! Those people are obvious enemies of Mormonism, and they are not going to have anything good to say about it, are they?

Soc. I suppose not!

HS. When you read the Koran, you weren’t afraid of being deceived, were you?

Soc. No!

HS. Why should the Book of Mormon be any different?

Soc. I suppose it shouldn’t be!

HS. How do you know that those apostates and anti-Mormons who have been whispering to you are not the biggest deceivers of all? How do you know they are not serving the devil, and you have been deceived by them?

Soc. Hmmm. I hadn’t thought of it that way before! 😊

HS. Has not God said, “ask, and you shall receive; knock and it shall be opened unto you?”

Soc. Yes!

HS. Why not trust God, and try it?

Soc. :o

zerinus
 
Zerinus,

scriptures.lds.org/tg/c/198

TOPICAL GUIDE
Conviction
See Holy Ghost, Source of Testimony; Testimony

Sort of refers to what you’ve been leading Soc to seek for, doesn’t it?

You chose a curious scripture to prove a point. In Mark 2:8, Jesus knows in his mind what other people are thinking, and their state of faith. What does that have to do with the Holy Ghost communicating thoughts and ideas to our minds without words?

I am not saying that it doesn’t require something supernatural happening in our mind and will, to convince us that Jesus is God and Messiah. I believe it does, and I wouldn’t know how to explain it either.

In my Catholic Study Bible it says that revelation is fundamentally God’s self-revelation; it is the communication of the mystery of God to the world. It comes to us through creation, history, persons, society, and reason. It also says that we can refer to the Bible as a privileged revealer of God- that is, a place where the divine revelation is particularly clear, is the Bible. Would you agree with that?
 
truthsilence said:
Zerinus,

scriptures.lds.org/tg/c/198

TOPICAL GUIDE
Conviction
See Holy Ghost, Source of Testimony; Testimony

Sort of refers to what you’ve been leading Soc to seek for, doesn’t it?
Click to expand...
There is a difference between saying that the testimony of the Holy Ghost will give you a conviction that something is true, and saying that the way in which the Holy Ghost will testify to you that something is true is by giving you a conviction.
You chose a curious scripture to prove a point. In Mark 2:8, Jesus knows in his mind what other people are thinking, and their state of faith. What does that have to do with the Holy Ghost communicating thoughts and ideas to our minds without words?
Click to expand...
He was saying that communication can only take place by the use of words. I was trying to show him that communication can take place without the use of words.
In my Catholic Study Bible it says that revelation is fundamentally God’s self-revelation; it is the communication of the mystery of God to the world. It comes to us through creation, history, persons, society, and reason. It also says that we can refer to the Bible as a privileged revealer of God- that is, a place where the divine revelation is particularly clear, is the Bible. Would you agree with that?
Click to expand...
No.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Okay, Socrates, I have read through your boring dialog; and I can assure you that it is not a conversation with the Holy Ghost. Your capacity for self-deception appears to be greater than I had thought. I can even prove it this time. The Holy Ghost is also known as the “Spirit of truth”. That means that it cannot lie, endorse or approve a lie, or get involved in a dialog containing lies without exposing and disapproving it. Your “dialog” contains falsehoods which you purport the Holy Spirit approving of. Here is one:
…
Click to expand...
Thank you, Zerinus. I was hoping you would point out where i might be deceived. I’ll read what you have to say carefully.

👍
 
zerinus said:
…This is falsehood. I have never said that the way in which the Holy Ghost gives someone a testimony is by giving them a “conviction”. In fact, I have strictly avoided explaining to you precisely how the Holy Ghost testifies to someone that the Book of Mormon is true, notwithstanding your protestations. That is the one question to which you have repeatedly attempted to obtain an answer from me; and which I have repeatedly refused to answer. …
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Zerinus:

Please notice that in my conversation i am the guilty one, not the Holy Ghost. For, the Holy Ghost never said that what i thought you believed is what you actually believe. It was me who suggested that this is what you believe to Him.

The Holy Ghost did not confirm nor deny that this is what you do believe. He merely denied that Jesus taught that the Holy Ghost communicates without intelligible words. Please read the text you quoted again, and you should see this is true:

:cool:

Quote:HS. What does Zerinus say is the meaning of these words?Soc. I believe he says that you will guide me into all truth by giving me a strong feeling of conviction.HS. Do you find the word conviction anywhere in these words of your Lord and Savior?Soc. No, now that you mention it, i do not. As for my misinterpretation of what you believe, i do apologize for this. I think, however, that you can understand how i misunderstood you, and that i asked you many times to explain what you believe and why.

🙂
 
zerinus said:
… Now you are putting words in my mouth by imagining up some explanation which you want to attribute to me. The Holy Spirit would not have approved of that. …
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I do not see any reason to think that He did approve of my misrepresentation of what you believe. However, since this is what i genuinely believed you believed, i think He did the right thing. For, it was good for Him to point out that my idea of what i thought you believed (regardless of whether you actually believed this or not) was not true, rather than leave me believing a lie. This is, in fact, what He did. I’m grateful for His pointing out my error, and regret having misrepresented you. I hope you will forgive me.

:o
 
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