Pros and Cons of Mormonism

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PattyPryor said:
Why are you using D&C to prove your point? Most of us on this forum don’t see it as inspired or even true.
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Mormons believe Joseph Smith was so wonderful that if we hear enough of his “inspired” writings we will come to believe in him. What amazes me is that anyone can read the tripe he produced and believe any of it.

Paul
 
Jerusha said:
Please allow me to paraphrase and comment on what you just wrote to match my own personal beliefs.

That “gathering of the wheat” (is this why LDS people like to store wheat against the privations of the end times, and group together in communities obsessed with persecution?) takes place as disillusioned LDS reject the gospels of JS and BY and join the True Church united with Rome…As the LDS church falters and then fails, those who leave it come to understand why the Latter Day Saints took that name. The early “Saints” personalized the belief that when the fraud would be found out it would seem to true believers that the world would be coming to an end. And many true believers would rather see the world come to an end, than meet the Real Jesus.
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You know, Jerusha, when I first read this I missed the wisdom in what you actually said because I think I was kind of distracted by the witty tongue-in-cheek sound of it. At times I’m rather slow, I admit it. 🙂

Shoot, go right back to the parable itself and you can see some wisdom in what you wrote here.:bowdown2:
 
truthsilence said:
I studied this parable further last night, Again, I saw no indication that it was speaking of an Apostasy of the Church.

As far as the wheat and tares being hard to distinguish, I agree, because the weed in its first stage of growth can resemble the wheat. Jesus instructs the disciples that they must allow the weeds to grow among the wheat and that they must not to try to pluck out the weeds because they might pluck the wheat as well. On a personal level, each individual receives the word of God in different ways and with different circumstances in their lives when they receive it. On an individual basis we don’t always nurture it or live our lives as we are taught. Some may hear the word, but never accept it. Some hear and accept but later fall away because of persecution, anxiety or worldly seductions such as riches, etc. But those who are not faithful, or who don’t produce good fruit are still allowed to live among those who do. That is why the Church is to continue to cry repentance to all the earth. But remember, the parable also speaks of those who hear and respond to the word, and produce fruit abundantly!

Until the final judgment when God will eliminate evil, the Church is to be wise, (preach sound doctrine - eliminate heresy) be patient, preach repentance, and wait on the Lord, He alone is the one who will make a definitive exclusion of sinners from the kingdom.
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I didn’t post that to play games with anybody. We are dealing with a parable here. A parable is something that you put any spin on that you choose to. Jesus explained that the reason why He spoke with people in parables was in order to blind the eyes of those who, having eyes would not see, and having ears would not here:

Matthew 13:

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Luke 8:

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

The purpose of a parable is both to hide truth as well as to reveal it. It hides truth from those for whom it is not intended, and reveals it to those for whom it is intended. I have given you the correct interpretation of that parable as it has been revealed to us in modern scripture. It is up to you to if you want to close your eyes to it by putting whatever spin on it that you like.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
I didn’t post that to play games with anybody. We are dealing with a parable here. A parable is something that you put any spin on that you choose to. Jesus explained that the reason why He spoke with people in parables was in order to blind the eyes of those who, having eyes would not see, and having ears would not here:

Matthew 13:

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Luke 8:

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

The purpose of a parable is both to hide truth as well as to reveal it. It hides truth from those for whom it is not intended, and reveals it to those for whom it is intended. I have given you the correct interpretation of that parable as it has been revealed to us in modern scripture. It is up to you to if you want to close your eyes to it by putting whatever spin on it that you like.

zerinus
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Your “modern scripture” is the spin. My eyes are wide open, thank you.

Geez, Z. Don’t you see? Jesus Christ IS God’s Revelation to man! Not your “modern scripture”!
 
Matthew 13:24-30

The refusal of the householder to allow his slaves to separate the wheat from the weeds Weeds: darnel, a poisonous weed that in its first stage of growth resembles wheat. while they are still growing is a warning to the disciples not to attempt to anticipate the final judgment of God by a definitive exclusion of sinners from the kingdom.
In its present stage it is composed of the good and the bad. The judgment of God alone will eliminate the sinful.
Until then there must be patience and the preaching of repentance.
 
zerinus said:
You are going back to your old line of questioning, which have already been thrashed out before. I cannot answer that question. Why don’t you ask the Lord? He made the promise, I didn’t.

zerinus
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Zerinus:
I’ve spent the last week or so doing as you asked. I’ve been asking the Lord to show me the truth, and the following is how the conversation went. Please let me know what you think.
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Socrates. Hey, Lord.

*Holy Spirit. *Hey, Socrates, it’s good to talk with you, again!

Soc. Yes, good to talk with you, too. I come with more questions.

HS. Come, let us reason together! {1}

Soc. Reason is what i have questions about.

HS. {Laughing warmly} I know. Ask, and you will receive … {2}

Soc. And my joy will be complete. Yes, i will.

HS. Good.

Soc. My question, as i said, is about reason. You see, i have been talking to a Mormon who calls himself Zerinus. He believes i should not use reason to discern the spiritual truth you want me to know.

HS. What do the Scriptures tell you? {3}

Soc. As you have reminded me before, i should love the Lord my God with all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. {4}

HS. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. {5} And how have you loved Zerinus, Socrates?

Soc. Not very well, i’m afraid.

HS. Confess your sin and the Father will be faithful and just to forgive your sin and to cleanse you of all unrighteousness. {6}

Soc. Yes, here is my confession: i told him his belief was like a craving for liver or Brussels sprouts, for he does not know the rational reason why he believes.

HS. Son, your sins are forgiven {7} but you must confess your sins to Zerinus, too, {8} and you should do your best to sin no more. {9}

Soc. Yes, i will try to not sin.

HS. Good. Now, let us reason about the first and greatest commandment: What does it mean to worship the Lord your God with all your mind? {4}

Soc. I suppose it means to worship Him with all my thoughts.

HS. Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. {10}

Soc. Yes, that is frequently my purpose, and the reason for our conversation at this moment. I want to know what is true.

HS. You know that if you lack wisdom you have only to ask me and i will give it to you generously, without finding fault. {11}

Soc. Yes, you have taught me that truth many times before. I need wisdom about spiritual discernment.
 
HS. Remember what Jesus said: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.” {12}

Soc. Yes, Zerinus mentioned that verse.

HS. Why do you think Jesus used the word all?

Soc. I suppose because there is no kind of truth to which you will not guide me, if he is willing to be led.

HS. Are you willing to follow Jesus? {13}

Soc. He has the words of eternal life, Lord, to whom else could i go? {14}

HS. Then, let us further reason together: Of all knowledge, there are two kinds—that which is true and that which is untrue.

Soc. Yes.

HS. That which comes from God is true, for it is impossible for God to lie. {15}

Soc. True.

HS. And that which come from Satan is untrue, for his native language is the language of lies. {16}

Soc. Agreed.

HS. And a follower of Jesus ought always to speak the truth in love, {17} otherwise he is showing himself, by his actions, to be more a follower of lies than of truth.

Soc. Yes, i want to be more like my Lord, than the Devil. Since Jesus is the Truth, {18} i should be honest, too. As you remind me, i should always test the spirits to see which are from God. {19}

HS. And so we will!

Soc. Yes, with your help, i will know the truth.
HS. And the truth will set you free. {20}
 
Soc. Then, free my mind from whatever lies seek to enslave me, Lord.

HS. I will do nothing less, for a child who asks for the bread of life, I will not give a snake instead. {21} We have reasoned that all knowledge is divided into two classes: Truth and lies. Let us consider the former: Of all that is true, what are the methods by which this type of knowledge can be obtained?

Soc. I’ve been doing much thinking about this, i believe with your help, and have come to this conclusion: That which is true can be gained by rational means or non-rational means.

HS. And that which is rational, is it also knowable?

Soc. Certainly.

HS. And that which is not knowable, is it obtained by reason, or by some other means.

Soc. By reason.

HS. And that which is knowable, is it always understandable?
Soc. What do you mean?

HS. Consider Brussels sprouts.

Soc. Please explain.

HS. When you joked with Zerinus that one cannot know why he likes the taste of Brussels sprouts, or liver, or some other food, did you mean that there was no rational reason to explain why one person prefers one taste over another?

Soc. No, i suppose there is a rational reason, even though the person may not comprehend it. In fact, now that you mention it, i think i heard on a news broadcast of some study done that showed that people whose blood was low on iron craved iron rich foods, like liver.

HS. And what does this example tell you?

Soc. That not being able to understand the rational reason why one believes is never proof that there is no rational reason. There might very well be a logical explanation, if only the person knew what that reason was and understood it.

HS. And are there any truths that are beyond comprehension?

Soc. I’ve often thought that infinity, or eternity, are so. For, i cannot imagine an infinite number of anything. There are many stars in the sky, more than scientists can count, but the number of them is not infinite, or they would fill the entire universe, leaving no room for anything else. Neither can i grasp an infinite number of years, or eternity.

HS. And this is eternal life: that they may know the Only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent. {22}

Soc. Yes, as you have taught me before, eternity is more than a place; it’s a person.

HS. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. {23}

Soc. Yes, eternity is a gift, too. It is the gift that results from the demonstration of God’s love. For, Christ died for me. {24}

HS. Yes, God’s actions prove He is love. {25}

Soc. Amen. I think, then, what you are saying is that all truth can be obtained by rational means, but that some truths can only be apprehended by me, while others can be comprehended.

HS. Does that sound reasonable to you?

Soc. {Laughing warmly} Yes, and rational, too!

HS. Very well. We have discerned the truth can be obtained by rational means. What about irrational means?

Soc. I suppose one could come to the truth irrationally, but only by accident. For i often find that when i have been irrational, the truth usually eludes my grasp. When i think irrationally, i’m often guided by my emotions, against my better judgment. Experience tells me that my emotions ebb and flow like a tide, but reason is a rock which even the strongest storm cannot erode. {26}

HS. Well said.

Soc. Yes, but i cannot take credit for it, for i believe i got that from you. Thank you!
 
HS. You are very welcome. So, what spiritual truths have you discerned thus far, Socrates?

Soc. Let me see. I will try to summarize what you are telling me to this point: Of all that is human knowledge, there are two categories—that which is true and that which is untrue. The knowledge which belongs to the category of truth can be obtained by three means—rational comprehension, rational apprehension, and irrational apprehension. For, i should add, one can never be said to comprehend something irrationally, as it takes rational thought to understand something. Now, if i find that a truth cannot be comprehended rationally, i should always seek to apprehend it rationally, rather than irrationally. I should use reason, rather than emotion, as my guide, whenever possible.

HS. You speak truthfully, Socrates!

Soc. Yes, i understand that i should seek to discern spiritual truths by way of rational apprehension or rational comprehension. Yet, i still have questions about how you guide me to rational truth.

HS. I have much to teach you, but it is more than you can handle right now. {27} Please think about what we have discussed and let us resume our conversation next time, for, if you look at the clock, you have to get going or you will be late.

Soc. Yes, thank you. I will think about it and discuss this with you again, soon.

HS. I’m looking forward to it!


  1. *]Isaiah 1:18
    *]John 16:24
    *]Luke 10:26
    *]Matthew 22:37-38
    *]Matthew 22:39
    *]1 John 1:9
    *]Mark 2:5
    *]James 5:16
    *]John 8:11
    *]Philippians 4:8
    *]James 1:5
    *]John 16:13
    *]Luke 9:23
    *]John 6:68
    *]Hebrews 6:18
    *]John 8:44
    *]Ephesians 4:15
    *]John 14:6
    *]1 John 4:1
    *]John 8:32
    *]Matthew 7:9-11
    *]John 17:3
    *]John 3:16
    *]Romans 5:8
    *]1 John 4:8
    *]Matthew 7:24-25
    *]John 16:12
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
**Zerinus:

I’ve spent the last week or so doing as you asked. I’ve been asking the Lord to show me the truth, and the following is how the conversation went. Please let me know what you think.

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Good to talk to you again, Socrates. I have to admit, I haven’t read all of your posts. I read the first few lines of the first one, and then got bored, and did not continue after that. My attention span is rather limited, and I lose concentration very quickly, and I don’t like reading long and dreary posts. If you would be so kind as to summarize briefly the gist of what you are trying to say, I will try to respond to it.

zerinus
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
HS. You are very welcome. So, what spiritual truths have you discerned thus far, Socrates?

Soc. Let me see. I will try to summarize what you are telling me to this point: Of all that is human knowledge, there are two categories—that which is true and that which is untrue. The knowledge which belongs to the category of truth can be obtained by three means—rational comprehension, rational apprehension, and irrational apprehension. For, i should add, one can never be said to comprehend something irrationally, as it takes rational thought to understand something. Now, if i find that a truth cannot be comprehended rationally, i should always seek to apprehend it rationally, rather than irrationally. I should use reason, rather than emotion, as my guide, whenever possible.

HS. You speak truthfully, Socrates!

Soc. Yes, i understand that i should seek to discern spiritual truths by way of rational apprehension or rational comprehension. Yet, i still have questions about how you guide me to rational truth.

HS. I have much to teach you, but it is more than you can handle right now. {27} Please think about what we have discussed and let us resume our conversation next time, for, if you look at the clock, you have to get going or you will be late.

Soc. Yes, thank you. I will think about it and discuss this with you again, soon.

HS. I’m looking forward to it!


  1. *]Isaiah 1:18
    *]John 16:24
    *]Luke 10:26
    *]Matthew 22:37-38
    *]Matthew 22:39
    *]1 John 1:9
    *]Mark 2:5
    *]James 5:16
    *]John 8:11
    *]Philippians 4:8
    *]James 1:5
    *]John 16:13
    *]Luke 9:23
    *]John 6:68
    *]Hebrews 6:18
    *]John 8:44
    *]Ephesians 4:15
    *]John 14:6
    *]1 John 4:1
    *]John 8:32
    *]Matthew 7:9-11
    *]John 17:3
    *]John 3:16
    *]Romans 5:8
    *]1 John 4:8
    *]Matthew 7:24-25
    *]John 16:12
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  1. Beautiful. This gave me goosebumps! Is that rational?😉

    God bless you!
    Tami
 
In a nutshell, Mormons don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God, second person of the Trinity, who became man. They believe that he was very holy etc, like an angel, but was created by God.

That there are a lot of plus things about Mormonism can’t make up for this, as its a fundamental building block.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Please tell me what you think is the best, strongest, most convincing reason to accept or reject Mormonism. More importantly, please tell me why. I’m hoping for a wide range of opinions pro and con.
http://101151.agchurches.org/SiteFiles/101151/Content/Media/One_way.jpg
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Christ said He was founding His Church, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Yet the Mormons (among other groups) believe that the apostolic Church basically disappeared from the earth after 100 AD, and didn’t return until Joseph Smith discovered golden plates c. 1820. For this reason alone, I cannot seriously consider Mormonism. Joe
 
claude1 said:
In a nutshell, Mormons don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God, second person of the Trinity, who became man. They believe that he was very holy etc, like an angel, but was created by God.

That there are a lot of plus things about Mormonism can’t make up for this, as its a fundamental building block.
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I tend to differ with you on this. As a good Catholic I believe in the Trinity. If I could be persuaded the Book of Mormon is the word of God, then I would gladly abandon Trinitarianism for the views of Joseph Smith. Mormons have the unfortunate task of defending an obvious fraud, but the problem is not their doctrine, but the utter lack of evidence for the Book of Mormon.
 
zerinus said:
Good to talk to you again, Socrates. I have to admit, I haven’t read all of your posts. I read the first few lines of the first one, and then got bored, and did not continue after that. My attention span is rather limited, and I lose concentration very quickly, and I don’t like reading long and dreary posts. If you would be so kind as to summarize briefly the gist of what you are trying to say, I will try to respond to it.

zerinus
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Think of it, all that speech pouring down, selling nothing, judging nobody…What a thing it is to sit absolutely alone, in the forest, at night, cherished by this wonderful, intelligible, perfectly innocent speech, the most comforting speech in the world, the talk that rain makes by itself all over the ridges…Nobody started it, nobody is going to stop it. It will talk as long as it wants, this rain. As long as it talks I am going to listen.

(Thomas Merton)
 
BartBurk said:
I tend to differ with you on this. As a good Catholic I believe in the Trinity. If I could be persuaded the Book of Mormon is the word of God, then I would gladly abandon Trinitarianism for the views of Joseph Smith. Mormons have the unfortunate task of defending an obvious fraud, but the problem is not their doctrine, but the utter lack of evidence for the Book of Mormon.
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I disagree. Their doctrine, when explored, creates utter confusion.
 
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