Pros and Cons of Mormonism

[Socrates4Jesus]

Reasons to Accept Mormonism

1. 
   *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
   *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
   *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
   *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the LDS church.
   *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
   *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
   *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   *]Church programs for kids are very good.
   *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
   *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that Mormons are a “peculiar people”.
   *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
   *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
   *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
   *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strength.
   *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
   *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
   *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOm:

Please call me Soc (or s4J), as my friends here do!

I’m extremely grateful that you are here to help me see more clearly the truth of which the well-meaning, though ignorant, Mormon missionary Elder Howe and his friend were blind. You appear to have eyes to see the truth that many great religious thinkers have seen, that God always was and always will be.

That being said, you must also see the truth that some well-meaning, though ignorant, Mormon prophets failed to see. For some of these prophets, i’m told, taught that God was once a man as you and i now are. Do you recognize this teaching to be a lie?

Soc,
God was in fact a man. All of us agree upon this. I believe based on the teachings of Joseph Smith and on John 5:19 that we should (not must BTW) take God’s being a man farther than just the incarnation of Jesus Christ. We should see that God the Father did what God the Son was then doing and was also incarnate.
I do however reject the idea that God the Father was a sinful man who an eternity ago didn’t exist or wasn’t divine.
A number of LDS leaders after Joseph Smith utilized a poor rendition of the KFD to assert that God became God. From this they postulated an eternal regress of Gods. I do not think this is the proper understanding of our scriptures or the KFD. I join with at least two later prophets in inviting caution when attempting to understand how God the Father was once a man.
So, I assert that God the Father like God the Son was a man, but I reject the fact that God the Father was not fully divine an eternity ago.

BTW, as long as “ignorant” is in no way pejorative, I suppose that word choice is ok. “Lie” is however pejorative and I reject it. I engage you with caution as you speak of “friend” and “grateful” and then speak of leaders I consider to be prophets of God as liars. This is generally not the language of respect and gratitude. You need not change said language and it may be quite accurate for you, but it continues to raise flags in my mind as to your intentions.

Charity, TOm

 

[RAR]

I am a monotheistic Social Trinitarian. The unity of God is a communion and we are invited into this communion. This is the witness of the ECF and that is not taking them out of context.
Here is my bold statement:
No pre-4th century ECF ever spoke of a limit upon the FINAL state of deified man.
Divinity is the communion present between the members of the Trinity. We are invited into this unity. As Joseph Smith pointed out, we will always owe our divinity to God. But, I say that this is the lasting divide. God is the deifier and we are the deified. We are not partially deified.
Charity, TOm

Thank you for your boldness TOm.

I have seen nothing in your posts to support this though. Now, forgive me, because I haven’t been around as long as others on this board and have not seen the full history of your posts on the subject. That being said, in the posts I have seen there is nothing to convince me other than that what the ECFs were speaking about was a striving for perfection in our mortal lives.

With that in mind, it seems to me the communion with the Trinity as spoken of is not a participation in God-ness with that Trinity, but more a “communal living.” In other words, we’re in the presence of God… we are not deified. The reason “No pre-fourth century ECF ever spoke of a limit upon the FINAL state of deified man” is because no such deification exists.

Here is my “bold” statement… **Man is a creatURE and as such can not leap the chasm of being-ness to become creatOR. **

What we’re talking about is putting ourselves on par with God… this is the original sin! This is heresy. That is why Jesus established His church… so that we can put our trust in it, and by proxy, Him alone.

God bless as always.

RAR

 

[RAR]

Catholics and other non-Mormons:

I’m surprised that so far #43 is the only reason given as the most important reason to reject Mormonism. Is there any non-Mormon who believes there is a better, more convincing, more worthy reason in the list for me to not become a Mormon?

If so, what number is it and why do you think this reason is superior to all the others?

Soc,

I believe number 17 on the “con” list is important. It is one that draws the ire of the LDS and raises the hackles of the Christians, but important none-the-less. Let me give it a new spin…

If we assume Jesus is God-incarnate, consider the following:

God can not be improved upon.

God was made incarnate in the person of Jesus (Word-Made-Flesh) to reveal God the Father to the world and to bring us the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. This revelation was God’s final word and ended the days of the prophets.

The notion that at a later date, a man (Joseph Smith) would build upon the revelation that God Himself (Word-Made-Flesh) brought us, confounds all reason.

And it insults the Holy Spirit, which was sent and has been with us ever since Jesus established His church.

RAR

 

[rikkk1958]

Hurray!!! for the cons. What would Joseph Smith write if he did not have the Bible? Hmm. . .I see, the Quran! You did a great job Socrates4Jesus. Tom and Z, I find that you are truly loyal mormons and I just feel sorry for you. But you always have a chance by reading the real Bible. Muhammed? Joe Smith? Manalo? who else would claim to have seen and talked with an angel?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… BTW, as long as “ignorant” is in no way pejorative, I suppose that word choice is ok. “Lie” is however pejorative and I reject it. I engage you with caution as you speak of “friend” and “grateful” and then speak of leaders I consider to be prophets of God as liars. This is generally not the language of respect and gratitude. You need not change said language and it may be quite accurate for you, but it continues to raise flags in my mind as to your intentions.

Charity, TOm

Yes, i see what you mean, TOm. I apologize if i offended you. I was using the word to denote those who believe or teach that which is not true. I was not saying that they were intentionally trying to deceive, but i was suggesting that they might have been deceived, or possibly they did not have as complete an understanding of the truth as you have.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc,
God was in fact a man. All of us agree upon this. I believe based on the teachings of Joseph Smith and on John 5:19 that we should (not must BTW) take God’s being a man farther than just the incarnation of Jesus Christ. We should see that God the Father did what God the Son was then doing and was also incarnate.
I do however reject the idea that God the Father was a sinful man who an eternity ago didn’t exist or wasn’t divine.
A number of LDS leaders after Joseph Smith utilized a poor rendition of the KFD to assert that God became God. From this they postulated an eternal regress of Gods. I do not think this is the proper understanding of our scriptures or the KFD. I join with at least two later prophets in inviting caution when attempting to understand how God the Father was once a man.
So, I assert that God the Father like God the Son was a man, but I reject the fact that God the Father was not fully divine an eternity ago.
…

Thank you, TOm, for trying to explain, but i’m ashamed to say that i’m often slow to understand something new. Sometimes when i first hear a new idea, it’s like i’ve stepped out of a dark cave into the brilliant sunlight, and it takes a little time for me to adjust my vision. I hope you will help me bring into focus what you see!



Are you saying that God the Father was a man, but not like you and me, because you and me, unlike Him, have a beginning and He never did?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc,

I believe number 17 on the “con” list is important. It is one that draws the ire of the LDS and raises the hackles of the Christians, but important none-the-less. Let me give it a new spin…

If we assume Jesus is God-incarnate, consider the following:

God can not be improved upon.

God was made incarnate in the person of Jesus (Word-Made-Flesh) to reveal God the Father to the world and to bring us the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. This revelation was God’s final word and ended the days of the prophets.

The notion that at a later date, a man (Joseph Smith) would build upon the revelation that God Himself (Word-Made-Flesh) brought us, confounds all reason.

And it insults the Holy Spirit, which was sent and has been with us ever since Jesus established His church.

RAR

Thank you, RAR.

The most important reason to reject Mormonism:

Reason 17.

Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words. Jesus was God, and God cannot be improved upon. His message was the last and best message to us.

---

What you said reminds me of this passage:

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

(Hebrews 1:1-2)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hurray!!! for the cons. What would Joseph Smith write if he did not have the Bible? Hmm. . .I see, the Quran! You did a great job Socrates4Jesus. Tom and Z, I find that you are truly loyal mormons and I just feel sorry for you. But you always have a chance by reading the real Bible. Muhammed? Joe Smith? Manalo? who else would claim to have seen and talked with an angel?

Please understand that my goal is not to win some argument, rikkk!



I’m trying to have a thoughtful, respectful conversation with, and learn from, TOm, and WhyMe, and others. I want to see if what they believe to be true really is true. What good would it be for me to win some debate but lose the truth? or as Jesus our Lord warned:

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

(Matthew 16:26)

 

[majick275]

I will not dispute that the idea of eternal regression exists for BY (and I suspect Joseph F. Smith). That being said, Joseph Fielding Smith and Gordon B. Hinckley, have both expressed that we do not know much about this (JFldS specifically references D&C 20:17 – God is “infinite and eternal, the same unchanging God”- and this was many decades ago).
The Bullock rendition of the KFD was not the one that dominated, but it fits with the John 5:19 context much better than do the other renditions. In the absence of this, there was likely to be misunderstanding, but folks like JFldS began addressing it (and his was an Improvement Era magazine not a Larry King Interview).

I am a monotheistic Social Trinitarian. The unity of God is a communion and we are invited into this communion. This is the witness of the ECF and that is not taking them out of context.
Here is my bold statement:
No pre-4th century ECF ever spoke of a limit upon the FINAL state of deified man.
Divinity is the communion present between the members of the Trinity. We are invited into this unity. As Joseph Smith pointed out, we will always owe our divinity to God. But, I say that this is the lasting divide. God is the deifier and we are the deified. We are not partially deified.

If I thought I had cherry picked the ECF, I would not do this.
You do not need to read Nibley, Norman, Bickmore, or … to see the ubiquitous-ness of this idea of deification and the exchange formula. Read Daniel Keating Deification and Grace.

Charity, TOm

i’m gonna disagree with you on joseph fielding smith based on his doctrines of salvation an answers to gospel questions books. Hinkley was in my opinion dissembling in his public statements on this. I will also that I think your position on deification closer to the catholic than the mormon. Mormon teaching currently and all along has emphasized that we will (if exalted) have spirit children and that we will have the same relationship to them that our god has to us. JS was very clear on this point too that we would gain our kingdom and thus glorify our father and our children in turn will do the same. this requires the principle to go in both directions infinitely and also begs the question as to who the savior is for each of these “generations”. I understand you not going into the temple implications of this but I believe they support my case strongly

 

[RAR]

Thank you, RAR.

The most important reason to reject Mormonism:

Reason 17.

Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words. Jesus was God, and God cannot be improved upon. His message was the last and best message to us.

---

What you said reminds me of this passage:

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.(Hebrews 1:1-2)

Yes, you see me clearly.

I don’t often use bible verses. I grew up unbaptized and my family didn’t take us to church. Somewhere in there I aquired a mild discomfort for the use of scripture in debate. Though I know I shouldn’t worry about that in this forum, I still prefer to say things as plain as possible and let others make the discoveries.

That and I can’t run with you guys. :bowdown2:

RAR

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc,

I believe number 17 on the “con” list is important. It is one that draws the ire of the LDS and raises the hackles of the Christians, but important none-the-less. Let me give it a new spin…

If we assume Jesus is God-incarnate, consider the following:

God can not be improved upon.

God was made incarnate in the person of Jesus (Word-Made-Flesh) to reveal God the Father to the world and to bring us the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. This revelation was God’s final word and ended the days of the prophets.

The notion that at a later date, a man (Joseph Smith) would build upon the revelation that God Himself (Word-Made-Flesh) brought us, confounds all reason.

And it insults the Holy Spirit, which was sent and has been with us ever since Jesus established His church.

RAR

RAR:

I’ve just noticed something: It seems to me that your reason for rejecting Mormonism is much the same reason as Rebecca’s, but just stated in a different way. Take a look:

The most important reasons to reject Mormonism:

Reason 17.

Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words. Jesus was God, and God cannot be improved upon. His message was the last and best message to us.

**Reason 43.**The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.

---

Both of these reasons have this in common: the premise that Mormonism has an incorrect understanding of the nature of God.

Do you agree?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, you see me clearly.

I don’t often use bible verses. I grew up unbaptized and my family didn’t take us to church. Somewhere in there I aquired a mild discomfort for the use of scripture in debate. Though I know I shouldn’t worry about that in this forum, I still prefer to say things as plain as possible and let others make the discoveries.

That and I can’t run with you guys. :bowdown2:

RAR

Then you might enjoy reading C. S. Lewis’ *Mere Christianity. *I find it uncanny how that man could quote one scriptural idea after another without quoting one verse of Scripture!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Mormons and those considering Mormonism:

Isn’t there one person who has an opinion as to what is the best reason for becoming a Mormon? If you will not give a reason for my benefit, will you at least do so for the benefit of someone else who might read this discussion and consider becoming a Mormon? Please explain why i, or someone else, should consider becoming a Mormon.



Reasons to Accept Mormonism

1. 
   *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
   *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
   *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
   *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the LDS church.
   *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
   *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
   *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   *]Church programs for kids are very good.
   *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
   *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that Mormons are a “peculiar people”.
   *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
   *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
   *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
   *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strength.
   *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
   *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
   *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.

 

[NewSeeker]

I believe based on the teachings of Joseph Smith and on John 5:19 that we should (not must BTW) take God’s being a man farther than just the incarnation of Jesus Christ. We should see that God the Father did what God the Son was then doing and was also incarnate.

TOm, would you agree then that, if “God the Father did what God the Son was then doing,” God the Father once declared the living reality of his own Eternal Father and prayed to Him, just as Jesus prayed to his own (and our) Heavenly Father? It seems to follow logically from your premise and your interpretation of John 5:19. If so, I can’t see how you can escape the conclusion that there is an infinite regress of gods after all.

NS

 

[RAR]

RAR:

I’ve just noticed something: It seems to me that your reason for rejecting Mormonism is much the same reason as Rebecca’s, but just stated in a different way. Take a look:

The most important reasons to reject Mormonism:

Reason 17.

Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words. Jesus was God, and God cannot be improved upon. His message was the last and best message to us.

Reason 43.

The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.

---

Both of these reasons have this in common: The premise that Mormonism has an incorrect understanding of the nature of God.

Do you agree?

Good observation, but not my intent. I do believe that Mormonism has an incorrect understanding of God, but I was trying to build on #17 (which was one of my original “cons”).

The original “con” came from my thinking that to accept Joseph’s “vision” (and all that he subsequently “revealed”) a person would have to be putting that vision above Jesus’s words in Matthew (16:18); which are stated plainly…

• You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

… and in doing so, putting that vision also above Jesus’ actions (establishment of His church).

This is bold at best and I believe fundamentally misguided.

RAR

 

[steve_b]

I’m the kind who, when i make up my mind that something is the right course to pursue, stays on that path until i reach my destination or die trying. I’ve decided to seriously consider whether Mormonism is the right way for me.

Please tell me what you think is the best, strongest, most convincing reason to accept or reject Mormonism. More importantly, please tell me why. I’m hoping for a wide range of opinions pro and con.

I think it is always good to let the one in the spot light do their own promo.

newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/what-mormons-believe-about-jesus-christ

based on this

1. 
   *]They don’t believe Jesus is God. They think he is a god
   *]They believe that God is an exalted man, that He is a separate and distinct personage from the Son and the Holy Ghost.
   *]they don’t believe in the Trinity.
   *]Mormonism is based on revelation from Joseph Smith, the likes of (2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32 Mosiah 3:7–9; Alma 34:11, Helaman 5:11 etc etc),The Book or Mormon etc
   *]they do not believe that the Bible contains all that God has spoken or will yet speak in the future. Christianity OTOH, believes the public revelation is closed. Mormons believe more is coming through their prophets
   *]Mormons don’t have valid baptism, no Eucharist, no sacrament of reconcilliation, no valid holy orders, no sacrament of the sick etc. As Jesus said in John’s gospel, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. Those who do eat my flesh and drink my blood I will raise them on the last day.
   We know who started Mormonism and when. Bottomline, why put your faith in a man made religion?

 

[steve_b]

Mormons and those considering Mormonism:

Isn’t there one person who has an opinion as to what is the best reason for becoming a Mormon? If you will not give a reason for my benefit, will you at least do so for the benefit of someone else who might read this discussion and consider becoming a Mormon? Please explain why i, or someone else, should consider becoming a Mormon.



Reasons to Accept Mormonism

1. • There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   • The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   • Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   • The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   • There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   • In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.

1. 
   All great qualities. All found in the Catholic Church as well.
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • .Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.

   They’ve got God completely wrong.
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.

   A 100% man made book devoid of Divine inspiration
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the LDS church.

   There is ALWAYS an apostasy of authority to point to by someone, or some group in history. The theory that the entire Church fell prey to this is not historical and pure nonsense.
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.

   they DON’T believe in the Trinity
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.

   I hope you see the difference between a god and God.
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   • Church programs for kids are very good.
   • LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
   • The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that Mormons are a “peculiar people”.
   • LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
   • Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.

   The good qualities of Mormonism regarding families is very good. But so is Catholicism with regards to family.
   
   LDS has no valid priesthood.
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.

   Really?
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strength.
   • It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.

   :doh2:
   
   
   Socrates:
   

   • Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians.

   I would suggest that scripture says they can’t REALLY do that without the sacraments.

 

[why_me]

Mormons and those considering Mormonism:

Isn’t there one person who has an opinion as to what is the best reason for becoming a Mormon? If you will not give a reason for my benefit, will you at least do so for the benefit of someone else who might read this discussion and consider becoming a Mormon? Please explain why i, or someone else, should consider becoming a Mormon.

]

I can only give you my story. When I was 18 years old, I met Mormons. It was in the northwestern part of the USA when I began my higher education. I joined their institute class and began to study the book of mormon. I also participated in mormon activities for young adults. I liked the people and I enjoyed the ‘spirit’ of the people. But it wasn’t until I prayed about the book of mormon and received a witness of it, that I joined. I don’t know if I would have joined by jotting down reasons why mormonism is good or bad. Probably not. But if the holy ghost is telling me to join, then that was a different matter.

Joining a church is not a socratic event. It is a spiritual event, one based on faith, knowledge and understanding with the Holy Ghost as guide.

That being said, I am not that involved with the mormon church. I remember the witness that I received and I have nothing negative to say about the religion. People, however, are imperfect and you will meet imperfect mormons as one meets imperfect catholics.

But joining a faith is not a socratic endeavor in my humble opinion.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Good observation, but not my intent. I do believe that Mormonism has an incorrect understanding of God, but I was trying to build on #17 (which was one of my original “cons”).

The original “con” came from my thinking that to accept Joseph’s “vision” (and all that he subsequently “revealed”) a person would have to be putting that vision above Jesus’s words in Matthew (16:18); which are stated plainly…

• You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

… and in doing so, putting that vision also above Jesus’ actions (establishment of His church).

This is bold at best and I believe fundamentally misguided.

RAR

Perhaps, RAR, but i think a Mormon might counter that Jesus was not referring to the person of Peter, nor to the position of Peter, but to the premise of Peter. That is, the Rock to which He referred was not Peter but the truth that the Holy Spirit helped him accept. That truth, of course, is the truth of who Jesus is and what He came to do. Notice the passage in context, where Jesus starts off by asking Peter and the others who people believe He really is:

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tl anyone that he was the Christ.

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

(Matthew 16) That is not to say, however, that there are no passages that teach that Jesus gave authority to Peter and the other disciples. This one comes to mind:

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

*(Matthew 28) *BTW, here is a link to a great resource for searching the Bible:

biblegateway.com/