Proselytizing is widely denounced

[Maximian]

… but is it in fact something that happens much? I mean, has anyone here heard of a recent case of people being forced to convert?

 

[Hodos]

The term proselytize has traditionally referred to the process of converting people through proclaiming one’s beliefs and persuading them to voluntarily adopt your belief system. With regard to forced conversions, I am not aware of any recent examples in Christendom. Check that, in Sub-Saharan Africa you had the Lord’s Resistance Army lead by Joseph Kony, although this is pretty rare since the late 1800’s with the Native American tribes (read up on the Indian Schools). That being said, you see this a bit in fundamentalist Islamic states.

 

[Maximian]

Well, Im not an expert but the Holy Father has roundly denounced proselytizing but exhorted everyone to evangelize. I assume he is drawing a distinction between coercion and persuasion, and that he is speaking of the present day.

 

[Hodos]

Well, Im not an expert but the Holy Father has roundly denounced proselytizing but exhorted everyone to evangelize.

I would not put much emphasis on his recent message. It was poorly worded and extremely confusing, almost sounding as if the proclamation of the gospel is a secondary purpose of the Church when in reality it is the primary purpose of the Church. It was a poorly drawn distinction that doesn’t really take into account the actual definition of the word proselytize.

 

[Gripper]

Well, Im not an expert but the Holy Father has roundly denounced proselytizing but exhorted everyone to evangelize. I assume he is drawing a distinction between coercion and persuasion, and that he is speaking of the present day.

Is there much difference between the two?

 

[gmcbroom]

It happens. But not usually by Catholics. Usually that occurs in Islam. Now with the death penalty attached. In fact a young seminarian was recently killed after being kidnapped by Islamic herdsmen in Africa.They asked him to convert or die. He chose death. I believe his last name is Nandi. He was 18. Are Catholics accused of proselytizing? Yes all the time. Is it true? Nope. We evangelize though. That’s different than proselytizing. One uses force or coercion the other argumentation. Some confuse it with sheep stealing. It’s not but the Catholic Church has amazing arguments that point to it having the fullness of truth. The Catholic Church is historical, it also happens to be the longest running continuous organization in the world. Then you add the miracles that happen even today through it’s saints and it’s hard to argue against it. The Catholic Church is The visible body of Christ on earth. Some might view my post as arrogant but if you consider what Jesus says to Saul at his conversion,”why are you persecuting me?” Afterwards Saul changes his name to Paul.

 

[Annie]

Some people think of proselytizing as things like telling lies about Church teaching, bedazzling less-educated people with baloney to get them to convert, even portraying a different faith as more sophisticated.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Pope Francis addressed proselytism as any sort of spiritual bullying that appeals to peoples fear or pride. In an early homily he states…

• Evangelization goes out to others and listens to them; proselytization excludes others and simply talks at them.
• Evangelization is a proclamation of Jesus, allowing people to have an encounter with Christ; proselytization is proud and convinced that it has all the answers.
• Evangelization trusts in the Holy Spirit as the true evangelist, as the one who makes converts; proselytization believes it’s up to us, to the force of our arguments and persuasive power.

 

[Weserthy]

… but is it in fact something that happens much? I mean, has anyone here heard of a recent case of people being forced to convert?

You’re right to be confused; I don’t think anyone truly knows what he means by proselytizing. Obviously, forcing someone to convert, whether psychologically, or at the point of a gun is wrong, but that rarely if ever happens in today’s world, at least with Catholicism. The problem with Pope Francis’ statements is that he sometimes strongly suggests, but never outright says, that “convincing”, through reasoned arguments, is proselytizing. Here is an except from what the Pope said in a Q&A a little while ago:

Question from Audience: My friends do not go to Church, still they are my friends. Do I have to reconcile them with going to church or is it enough to remain good friends?

Francis: The first question, the one that was posed in the context of the region having 80% of the population without a creed, is: “Do I have to convince these friends – good ones, who work and who are happy – do I have to convince them of my faith? What must I say to convince them?” Listen, the last thing you must do is to “speak.” You have to live as a Christian, like a Christian: convinced, forgiven, and on a path. It is not licit to convince them of your faith; proselytism is the strongest poison against the ecumenical path. You must give testimony to your Christian life; testimony will unsettle the hearts of those who see you. And from this unsettling grows one question: but why does this man or this woman live like that? And that prepares the ground for the Holy Spirit. Because it is the Holy Spirit that works in the heart. He does what needs to be done: but He needs to speak, not you. Grace is a gift, and the Holy Spirit is the gift of God from whence comes grace and the gift that Jesus has sent us by His passion and resurrection. It will be the Holy Spirit that moves the heart with your testimony – that is way you ask – and regarding that you can tell the “why,” with much thoughtfulness. But without wanting to convince.

What does he mean by this? Is he referring to brow-beating someone or condemning them for not going to Church? Maybe, but maybe not. What he’s talking about here could be construed as apologetics as well. It’s not clear, and it’s doubtful it ever will be. Maybe Catholic Answers has been proselytizing all these years without knowing it.

This article below is a good summary of some issues with some of the Pope’s statements. It’s a bit on the longer side but is replete with references to Church documents and previous Popes, specifically Pope Paul VI who speaks on why it doesn’t have to be just actions to convince others of your faith, but words as well. It doesn’t have to be either/or, it can be both/and:

Making sense of Pope Francis on faith, evangelization, and proselytizing (Part I) – Catholic World Report

 

[ontheway1]

What does he mean by this? Is he referring to brow-beating someone or condemning them for not going to Church? Maybe, but maybe not. What he’s talking about here could be construed as apologetics as well. It’s not clear, and it’s doubtful it ever will be. Maybe Catholic Answers has been proselytizing all these years without knowing it.

This article below is a good summary of some issues with some of the Pope’s statements. It’s a bit on the longer side but is replete with references to Church documents and previous Popes, specifically Pope Paul VI who speaks on why it doesn’t have to be just actions to convince others of your faith, but words as well. It doesn’t have to be either/or, it can be both/and:

https://www.catholicworldreport.com...is-on-faith-evangelization-and-proselytizing/

None of this makes any sense, but there is one aspect that can be considered. He might be talking about negative proselatizing, as in criticizing gay clergy, sticking to traditional catholicism or rejecting his married priests plan.
Since there is no real Catholic proselatizing going on anywhere, what else could he be objecting to?

 

[JimG]

Frank Sheed along with many other Catholic apologists, was a member of the Catholic Evidence Guild, whose members engaged in what we would today call street preaching. Sheed and other trained Catholic apologists, preached Catholicism publicly to crowds at Hyde Park, complete wth taunters and hecklers. I think the Guild may still have some active chapters. Isn’t that proslytism?

In the same respect I think of Mother Angelica, Catholic Answers, EWTN, and numerous Catholic bloggers and you-tubers, Marcus Grodi, David Anders, and more. I think it’s great.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Pope Francis is hardly the first pope to make this distinction and it’s been the teaching of the Church for as long as I can remember - we evangelize, we don’t proselytize. The quote that’s often misattributed to St. Francis of Assisi sums it up: “Preach the gospel at all times; use words when necessary.”

@Emeraldlady gave a great summary above.

 

[Maximian]

Pope Francis is hardly the first pope to make this distinction and it’s been the teaching of the Church for as long as I can remember

Yes, but that’s not my question. My question is, is forced conversion something that is actually happening? It is being denounced almost every month as if it were a major current problem.

 

[Maximian]

But not usually by Catholics. Usually that occurs in Islam. N

OK so you reckon the Pope is in fact making a coded denunciation of militant Islam?

 

[graciew]

No…
He is speaking to us ,Catholics .
We don’t go about gathering “ adepts” to join our “ cause “… Leave that to ideologies, politics…

 

[Maximian]

No…
He is speaking to us ,Catholics .
We don’t go about gathering “ adepts” to join our “ cause “… Leave that to ideologies, politics…

Ok. I get it. But who was doing that? These frequent denunciations must surely be a response to an actual problem.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

But that’s more of a made up distinction.

 

[graciew]

Posters have already answered…
This has been the teaching of the Church for ages so bringing it up over and over is also for the young who don’t know, for us to remember and for whoever needs correction…
Bear in mind that teaching goes in cycles…there are people constantly joining the Church.
Now that you know what proselytizing means, try and avoid doing it… and that is it…

 

[StudentMI]

This reminds me of a recent quote from a bishop who said he asked Pope Francis about the distinction and he said either he didn’t understand the answer or he wasn’t sure the Pope really answered it.

One problem is that, if you’re trying to convince me of something and you can’t act like you have the answer or really believe it, why on earth would I bother considering what you are proposing instead of treating it as a mere thought experiment? To be honest, and this is my opinion and I’m aware no one asked for it, I think Pope Francis’ distinction is based on a mistaken notion of ecumenism. It’s that spirit of Vatican II idea.

 

[graciew]

I wish Brother Jay were here…
There was a story he told us related to St Francis when he once told Brother Leo to get ready because they would go evangelizing through several towns.
As they entered a town, St Francis would greet the people, say good morning, smile and to the next town to smile, greet the people, be kind and on to the next town.
Thus, after having spent a long day with the people across different towns, Brother Leo approached St Francis and said “ We have been walking all day greeting people , and conversing and a smiling and that is fine. Now, when are we going to evangelize?”
St Francis answered: “ We just did”