Proselytizing

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I was just parusing an Evangelical blog site when I came across a couple that claimed to be “missionaries to Italy”. Italy??? What is THAT all about?

For that matter, I’ve seen a local church send missionaries to another state (I forget which one, now, but remember being shocked).

Is this something new or gaining momentum in recent times?

The Italy thing bothered me…because I can just see these missionaries in Vatican City, trying to ‘evangelize’ priests and seminarians, etc… (the Pope, probably, if they had the chance! Yeesh!
 
Western Europe is generally regarded now as post Christian or even anti-Christian. Why would missionary activity there (or anywhere Christ is not universally accepted for that matter) be seen as wrong???

Why is the missionary zeal from the Great Commission so absent from RCC today?

-Tim
 
Indeed, one would think the Catholic Church would be very zealous with its missionary work. If you won’t evangelize, then God will use the Orthodox and Protestants to reach people.
 
Western Europe is generally regarded now as post Christian or even anti-Christian. Why would missionary activity there (or anywhere Christ is not universally accepted for that matter) be seen as wrong???

Why is the missionary zeal from the Great Commission so absent from RCC today?

-Tim
Because, generally speaking, Italy is Catholic. And, furthermore, Vatican City is found there. Most Italians know who Christ is. Most Italians are NOT foreign to Christ or the Gospel. It is insulting, therefore, to assume that missionaries are needed in Italy.

If we were speaking of people, within the United States, that haven’t heard of Christ at all, I’d call it missionary…and, it would be better for them to hear of Christ (from a Protestant even) than not at all.

However, do you know of any place, within the United States, that is completely void of Christianity (where people do not know who Christ is)…and who would be hearing the Good News, for the very first time?

I’d assume, then, that this would be proselytizing, and not missionary work…trying to steal away christians, from the Catholic church or ‘other’ Protestant denominations.
 
Most Italians know who Christ is.
Most??? It is a tragedy if ONE person is lost, and any who have not accepted Christ are lost.
Most Italians are NOT foreign to Christ or the Gospel.
Yes, Italy is full of packed churches of devout people with a 100% devout population :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
However, do you know of any place, within the United States, that is completely void of Christianity
There is an University in my home town with whole departments where Christ is not Lord. He may be known, but is mocked. Our chruch considers it a missionary field.
where people do not know who Christ is)
Even the demons know and shudder. Knowledge is not enough.

-Tim
 
Would it be acceptable for Catholic missionaries to go to the Bible Belt with the same intention (to help those, who don’t know Christ, come to know Him)–and perhaps be encouraged to convert to Catholicism?
 
Would it be acceptable for Catholic missionaries to go to the Bible Belt with the same intention (to help those, who don’t know Christ, come to know Him)–and perhaps be encouraged to convert to Catholicism?
Isn’t the purpose of this forum to get protestants like me to join the “one true church”??
 
Most??? It is a tragedy if ONE person is lost, and any who have not accepted Christ are lost.

**By ‘most’, I wasn’t being literal. I doubt, in other words, that there is a person in Italy who hasn’t heard of Jesus or had the opportunity to ‘accept Christ’. Whether or not they don’t of subsequently ‘fall away’ is another issue…I’m speaking about the difference between missionary work and what is defined as proselytizing. **

Yes, Italy is full of packed churches of devout people with a 100% devout population :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes if you want…I can see that you are taking liberty with 100% (as if all Protestant churches, in Europe all packed full of “devout” christians, in contrast). I’d say that the lack of ‘faith’, in christians, is widespread (and very sad)…but, it isn’t an excuse to send Evangelicals into Italy, for the purpose of converting Catholics to an Evangelical denomination.

There is an University in my home town with whole departments where Christ is not Lord. He may be known, but is mocked. Our chruch considers it a missionary field.

**Amd what type of Unversity is it? Mormon? **

**I hope you don’t respond something like the Stuebenville Univeristy! **

Even the demons know and shudder. Knowledge is not enough.

You’re right…but we’re talking about people who are going to Italy with the intention of converting Catholics…Bottom line. Perhaps they are seeking those individuals (Catholic or Protestant) who have strayed from faith in God–enticed by a secular brand of lifestyle, or in other non-Christian religions, or just apathy…but, they could find individuals anywhere that fit that description (and not just Catholics). So why Italy? Most everyone knows that Italy is home to Vatican City and the Papacy. Just makes me wonder why this couple would choose Italy…and not some far off place where non-Christians live. Sounds like proseltyzing to me.

-Tim
 
Whether or not they don’t of subsequently ‘fall away’ is another issue
In either case they need to be witnessed to.
I’m speaking about the difference between missionary work and what is defined as proselytizing.
Explain the difference and why the later is bad.
I’d say that the lack of ‘faith’, in christians, is widespread (and very sad)…but, it isn’t an excuse to send Evangelicals into Italy,
Why is that not a missionary field? Many have reject or fallen away by your own confession.
Amd what type of Unversity is it? Mormon?
I hope you don’t respond something like the Stuebenville Univeristy!
Normal old secular university.

Though I do enjoy watching Scott Hahn from Steubenville on EWTN.
So why Italy?
Perhaps God sent them.

I have met several missionary families. One from the Basque area of Spain, one from Indonesia, India, Mexico, etc…

How do you know where God wants Christ preached?

-Tim
 
Isn’t the purpose of this forum to get protestants like me to join the “one true church”??
But I don’t think I’d be ‘standing in a Baptist church’s parking lot’ with Catholic tracts to pass out. I’d assume that most of the people there, would ‘know Christ’ in one sense. That doesn’t mean that I would also assume to read their hearts either (to judge whether that ‘knowledge’ was deeper and more personal).

The problem, I feel, is that these individuals chose "italy’ as their chosen mission. Why?

Perhaps Utah (in a heavily populated Mormom area) would make more sense…or in a country with a dense Muslim population…

but Italy? That reeks of prosletyzing (trying to convert christians–specifically, Catholics–to a Protestant denomination. And that’s just assuming that they are targeting those that ‘arent faithful’. What about the many who are devout? And considering that they could be speaking of missionary work in Vatican City (and not just some outlying Italian town)…I’d consider it proselytizing. If not, what would be your definition of proselytizing in comparison to 'missionary"?

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0025.html
See some comments here, from the ECT (Evangelicals and Catholic Together)
excerpt:
“With John Paul II, a visible warrior against the evil of this age, Catholics can warmly welcome alliances with evangelicals to redress the secularity of our time. This pope has captured the hearts of many non-Catholics who cannot deny that he is led by God. In our ecumenical struggle together, we Catholics, by example and commitment, by teaching and love, can welcome home our family members who have been away from the Lord’s table too long.”
 
So much of the world has become spiritually dead in today’s culture of death. So much of it needs spiritual revitalization. This includes every nation, even Italy, despite its closeness to Vatican City.

Does this mean the Catholic faith is to blame? Not a chance. She is The Church, solid as a rock for all time.

Does this mean Catholic Christians must work hard to bring people back home to her? You bet.

Do I mind if non-Catholic Christians share in this effort? Nope.

Do I mind if non-Catholic Christians proselytize Catholics away from The Church. Yes, indeed I do. I take issue with anyone who would attempt to do that, even in ignorance.

I have family members who do this sort of “work” in many countries. I accept what they do only inasmuch as they help the unfortunate and needy, and reach someone who doesn’t know the Good News, and brings them into His Word. That’s as far as it goes. Beyond that, The Church should be what we’re ultimately drawing everyone toward. Tragically, I know for a fact that proselytizing away from the Catholic faith is high on the agenda.

Is this what goes on everywhere? No. I would even think the majority of it is simple, fundamental Gospel spreading and community building. But there is a strong minority plucking lukewarm Catholics out from their safe haven, their spiritual bosom of Mother Church. This, I take issue with.

God Bless
 
You can’t witness because you don’t know their hearts, but you do seem to judge others intentions. How do you know they are targeting RCs.

I have no idea why they went to Italy. I hope they bring many to Christ though.
That reeks of prosletyzing (trying to convert christians–specifically, Catholics–to a Protestant denomination. And that’s just assuming that they are targeting those that ‘arent faithful’. What about the many who are devout? And considering that they could be speaking of missionary work in Vatican City (and not just some outlying Italian town)…I’d consider it proselytizing. If not, what would be your definition of proselytizing in comparison to 'missionary"?
Why are you so offended by an effort to change someones denomination? The purpose of this forum is to change my denomination.

I don’t know a difference between proselytizing and missionary work (thats why I asked). In both a church sends people out to change others to their religion. If othordox Christians (hold to the essentials) send people out and bring people to Jesus I am happy.

On a personal side note; I find the Mormon religion intellectually silly, but I do respect them that they send people to my door (at least they are genuine and believe what they say). I find RCC compelling, but (sadly) frequently have a difficulty respecting it (the church). -Being honest and not trying to offend.

-Tim
 
So much of the world has become spiritually dead in today’s culture of death. So much of it needs spiritual revitalization. This includes every nation, even Italy, despite its closeness to Vatican City.

Does this mean the Catholic faith is to blame? Not a chance. She is The Church, solid as a rock for all time.

Does this mean Catholic Christians must work hard to bring people back home to her? You bet.

Do I mind if non-Catholic Christians share in this effort? Nope.

Do I mind if non-Catholic Christians proselytize Catholics away from The Church. Yes, indeed I do. I take issue with anyone who would attempt to do that, even in ignorance.

I have family members who do this sort of “work” in many countries. I accept what they do only inasmuch as they help the unfortunate and needy, and reach someone who doesn’t know the Good News, and brings them into His Word. That’s as far as it goes. Beyond that, The Church should be what we’re ultimately drawing everyone toward. Tragically, I know for a fact that proselytizing away from the Catholic faith is high on the agenda.

Is this what goes on everywhere? No. I would even think the majority of it is simple, fundamental Gospel spreading and community building. But there is a strong minority plucking lukewarm Catholics out from their safe haven, their spiritual bosom of Mother Church. This, I take issue with.

God Bless
Thank you…! Good post. 👍
 
On a personal side note; I find the Mormon religion intellectually silly, but I do respect them that they send people to my door (at least they are genuine and believe what they say). I find RCC compelling, but (sadly) frequently have a difficulty respecting it (the church). -Being honest and not trying to offend.
In the end we should be flattered (for lack of a better word) when anyone shares what they believe to be ‘truth’ with you. It is those who think they have the truth and walk right by you that I am concerned about.

God bless
 
You can’t witness because you don’t know their hearts, but you do seem to judge others intentions. How do you know they are targeting RCs.

I have no idea why they went to Italy. I hope they bring many to Christ though.

Why are you so offended by an effort to change someones denomination? The purpose of this forum is to change my denomination.

**The Catholic Church isn’t just another ‘denomination’. It’s not a denomination at all. It’s the one, true Church. And yes, as Christians we are called to unity with that one Church. **

I don’t know a difference between proselytizing and missionary work (thats why I asked). In both a church sends people out to change others to their religion. If othordox Christians (hold to the essentials) send people out and bring people to Jesus I am happy.

Yes, it would be better for someone to embrace Christ through a Protestant denomination, than not at all. Also, I’d say that Christianity is more than agreement on ‘essentials’…and a problem lies with the disagreement that Protestants often endure with ‘what those essentials are’. The Catholic Church lays claim to being the Apostolic Church…and the fullness of Christian faith. So, it’s always the ‘best scenario’ to bring all of God’s children into that one Church.

On a personal side note; I find the Mormon religion intellectually silly, but I do respect them that they send people to my door (at least they are genuine and believe what they say). I find RCC compelling, but (sadly) frequently have a difficulty respecting it (the church). -Being honest and not trying to offend.

**Okay, so you can respect their tenacity and their boldness (in their brand of door-to-door evangelism)–even in light of the fact that they are a false religion (and not Christian). But, you can’t respect the Catholic Church (even though you call Her ‘compelling’?). I don’t get it.

If you came to my home, I’d let you know I was Catholic…in every way. I am not afraid to share the gospel with anyone. I ‘witnessed’ to a fallen away Catholic, in my kitchen, who was there to do work on the ceiling. He showed interest, and I just spoke from the heart. Before he left, I was giving him Scott Hahn’s tape! I’m certainly not afraid to evangelize and/or defend the Church. No, Catholics don’t do door-to-door evangelizing…but I don’t think that’s the true indicator of what’s in someone’s heart either! And, certainly, a JW or Mormon that knocks on the door, may be full of zeal and enthusiasm worthy of some praise…but it doesn’t equate with his/her having the truth. Not at all.**

-Tim
 
It is undeniable that Evangelicals who head for such events as World Youth Day, with handfuls of tracts, are not doing missionary work, but are prosleytyzing…trying to convince Catholic youth (who are, most often, faithful–or they wouldn’t be there)…in an effort to convince them that the Church is false or the whore of Babylon or other such nonsense.

I found these comments, on the Internet, from various sites:

"Evangelism, in the English use of the term, means telling or spreading good news. The four gospels of the New Testament tell the good news about Jesus Christ. When we, as Christians, tell others about what God has done in Jesus Christ, we are evangelising.

Proselytism, on the other hand, means “bringing people in”, causing them to change their beliefs, their party, their opinions or their religion. In proselytism there is a strong element of telling people how bad or wrong their present beliefs are. Telling people that their beliefs are wicked or wrong does not appear as “good news " to them. If we evangelise, we are not saying “Our religion is better than your religion”. We are not setting ourselves up as morally or spiritually superior beings, and trying to get people to leave their religion and join ours so that they can be superior like us. When we evangelise, we say, in effect, that God has done great things.”

And this, from a Mormon web site:

"As an LDS missionary in Italy, I stood in front of Catholic cathedrals with aggressive, determined companions who thought nothing of chasing a person down the street trying to get them to stop and talk, when it was abundantly clear the person had no desire or willingness to do so. I had companions who on occasion followed people into churches because they had not been taught to respect religious boundaries. (Salt Lake Tribune, November 3, 2002)
Clark continued about how the Missionaries were advised to “scout for converts around St. Peter’s Square at the Vatican,” and claims to have actually stood in front of Cathedrals, telling the church-goers “that their church was a whore.”

Sherri Harris, a Catholic, had the chance to recently visit Rome and noticed the activities of LDS missionaries.

When we toured the Vatican and, more importantly, the Sistine Chapel, guess who was standing just outside of the inner-sanctum door leading directly to the chapel? Yep, you got it right, the LDS missionaries passing out LDS literature, trying to convert everyone passing by…I find it hard to believe that the LDS Church authorities can carry on so about other religions passing out their religious literature when they proselytize inside a private building that is adjacent to the pope’s home. (Salt Lake Tribune, December 1, 2002)"

These examples clarify, I think, what the difference is between actual missionary work and sheep stealing (prosletyzing).
 
I was just parusing an Evangelical blog site when I came across a couple that claimed to be “missionaries to Italy”. Italy??? What is THAT all about?

For that matter, I’ve seen a local church send missionaries to another state (I forget which one, now, but remember being shocked).

Is this something new or gaining momentum in recent times?

The Italy thing bothered me…because I can just see these missionaries in Vatican City, trying to ‘evangelize’ priests and seminarians, etc… (the Pope, probably, if they had the chance! Yeesh!
Because Italy is one of the more un churched countries in the western world. Only 32% are regular church goers. Only 27% have read from the bible in the last year. Only 14% could answer basic bible questions such as “Are the 4 gospels part of the bible”?

This is why missions must go there. People need Christ. So if the Pope can’t get it done in his own back yard we’re going to do it.

Europe is getting ready to be a hotbed of Christian missions. Europe in general has left the faith and has become secular or Muslim. So Christian missions are heating up there like they normally would in 3rd world countries.

Link: upi.com/Top_News/2008/10/14/Survey_Italians_ignorant_of_Bible/UPI-63131224026050
 
Whoa, there. Of course people need Christ…so you’re suggesting what exactly? That Catholics don’t know about Christ? Of course we do. And, the last time I checked, people really come to Christ of their own accord (and, as Saint Paul states, need to persist in a relationship until the last breath).

Would you blame your Protestant pastor for any persons who have left your church (say, for another denomination–or another religion–or just stopped going to church–or became secularized, etc.). Would you blame your pastor for the failings of any members of your church? If they commited some crime/sin, would you blame the individual or your pastor for its failings? No, of course not. But you’d blame the Pope???

I often hear the claim that “church doesn’t save you”…and then you’re giving me statistics of how many Italians (I’m guessing you’re thinking only of Catholics, here)…that are not currently attending church or are members of a parish (where they can keep count of how many people are actually active members). I’d guess that the whole world experiences such problems (with people being seduced by secular society). It’s certainly a problem with the Church universal (and the Protesantant splintered groups). It’s a dilemma for all of Christianity. So, if Church doesn’t save someone, then we’re talking about differences of opinion on ‘how one is saved’.

That’s the root of the issue. Some Protestants do NOT think that Catholics are Christians, period. They claim that we are ‘not saved’; and, therefore, prosletyzing Catholics, even priests or nuns, is fair game. But it isn’t. Because we are Christians, and should be treated as such.

That’s where I disagree on ‘appreciation’ for evangelizers who come a–knockin’ on my door. No, I never treat them with hostility…but I feel that it is offensive to me…because I do know Christ, and everyday I try to form a more improved relationship with Him. And…by the way, I’d like to say that (the always sarcastic comments about ‘Catholic guilt’ comes in handy…and is surely a good thing in this world (where sin has become something of a myth). Therefore, I am also, constantly, in repentance mode (which includes both going to confession AND simply stating my sorrow, to God, about those sins…and asking for His help to continually do better). So, by non-denominational standards, that would be the equivalent of a Sinner’s Prayer…with the same results. It’s about ‘what’s in someone’s heart’…and we can’t judge others…even those that don’t ‘go to church’ as unsaved.

We shouldn’t be ambushed by other Christians. We should unite against a common foe (Satan working in the world and trying to destroy the Church from all angles).

I usually respond, to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, at my door, with the charity and with kindness. I always try to offer them my own tracts, as a fair trade (I’ll take yours if you’ll take mine). Most of the time, I remain empty handed, because they do not agree to that exchange. But I make clear to them, where I stand in regard to my fundamental belief that Christ is God. We part ways there, and I DO find it unsettling to have people approach me (in an effort to SAVE ME). Obviously, they think they are doing a good service (witnessing for Jehovah)…but, knowing they are offering false information, I reject it. Therefore, they make no impact on me or my beliefs at all. Now, a nominal Catholic or Protestant, may not be so lucky.

Everyone has to decide for Christ, themselves. We can all attempt, by the grace of God, to be good examples…in word and deed. To show them, by our love, that we are Christians. But, in the end, it’s all about someone’s own decision for or against Christ. And you can never give up on anyone, until their last breath (whether you resort, simply, to praying for them–which is a very powerful tool).

Christ instituted the Church with the purpose of helping aid Christians, as they journey…to be united with Christ in heaven. Sure, people fail sometimes, in being the best ‘evangelizers’…but that doesn’t mean that the Church doesn’t possess the truth…it means that people are fallible. Christ’s Church, on the other hand, is both a human AND a divine entity (it is the Mystical, Incarnated Body of Christ). With the promise of the Holy Spirit, intact, since its beginning…it cannot fail (even against the attacks of secularization and other such warfare).

I think that the denial of such a thing as ‘sheep stealing’, is an issue for non-denominational Christians…because they often do not view other, mainstream Christians (including Lutherans, Anglicans, the Orthodox) as saved by their intepretation of scripture. Therefore, everything (in their minds) is fair game.

But like I said, you wouldn’t find me walking into a Baptist or Pentecostal church, on Sunday morning, to tell people there, about Christ. I’d assume, as Trinitarian believers, that they know about Christ. As for whether they will be ‘saved’ in the end…I’d say that God will decide. For even those ‘saved’ by an altar call can sin gravely enough to forfieit their relationship with Christ.

I’d like to offer an link that pertains to “How Catholics Hear the Gospel”, because I think that, this misunderstanding is at the root of the problem (non-denoms view of salvation, and thinking that Catholics aren’t saved):

socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-do-catholics-hear-gospel-gary.html

Slava Isusu Christu!
 
Our duty to spread the gospel. It is apparent that Italy is in need of a few good shepards to edify the flock.
 
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