Proselytizing

[byzgirl]

Our duty to spread the gospel. It is apparent that Italy is in need of a few good shepards to edify the flock.

But it’s not the duty, of non-denominational christians, to try and convince Catholics (who do know Christ) to leave the Church (which is often what is attempted).

You have yet to comment about the LDS folks in Vatican City, or the non-denoms who descend upon World Youth Day. Are these faithful Catholics also fair game?

The Shepherd is Christ…and He instituted a Church and a leader to continue the role until His Return. Matthew 16:18.

 

[Seeking12]

But it’s not the duty, of non-denominational christians, to try and convince Catholics (who do know Christ) to leave the Church (which is often what is attempted).

You have yet to comment about the LDS folks in Vatican City, or the non-denoms who descend upon World Youth Day. Are these faithful Catholics also fair game?

The Shepherd is Christ…and He instituted a Church and a leader to continue the role until His Return. Matthew 16:18.

**We are commanded to go to all of the world, which includes the country of Italy.

As you already know many people do consider Catholics as a mission field; just as some Catholics see it the other way around.
In fact; doesn’t the Church teach that there is no salvation outside the Church? I think Vatican II has in effect changed this, which would mean from an outside view of the Church (a non-Catholic) that it does change its teaching. Hasn’t that caused some dissension within the Church?

Either way; the biblical fact is that most people that make a profession of Christ are indeed lost; it is only few that God has chosen that actually possess Christ; so the point is that we do not know who the elect are and God uses many human instruments to reach these that are His.**

 

[DD2007]

But it’s not the duty, of non-denominational christians, to try and convince Catholics (who do know Christ) to leave the Church (which is often what is attempted).

You have yet to comment about the LDS folks in Vatican City, or the non-denoms who descend upon World Youth Day. Are these faithful Catholics also fair game?

The Shepherd is Christ…and He instituted a Church and a leader to continue the role until His Return. Matthew 16:18.

By looking at the data Christ could use a few more friends in Italy: Link: upi.com/Top_News/2008/10/14/Survey_Italians_ignorant_of_Bible/UPI-63131224026050

It is the duty of every Christian to bear witness to Christ.

 

[byzgirl]

By looking at the data Christ could use a few more friends in Italy: Link: upi.com/Top_News/2008/10/14/Survey_Italians_ignorant_of_Bible/UPI-63131224026050

It is the duty of every Christian to bear witness to Christ.

No one is denying that, and it’s unnecessary to keep repeating it. I am not arguing against that.

I have no interest in reading the “article” that you offer. Especially in light of the fact that I doubt you read the article that I offered to you.

Knowing and/or being able to recite bible verses is not indicative of one’s eternal destination. It’s wonderful for Christians to study the Word of God, and to be uplifted and guided by it’s infallible truths…but, there still remains the problem of interpretation.

This is getting slightly off the topic at hand. You haven’t exactly answered any of my questions.

Are you denying that prostelyzing occurs? Is your claim that there’s no such thing?

Let’s offer a scenario just for the sake of discussion (and this has and does happen):

In a country, where missionaries often travel…we have two, perhaps three ‘missionary groups’…one Catholic, one Lutheran, and one non-denominational in the same area, ‘witnessing’ and ‘aiding’ people who are in need spiritually and physically. Perhaps one group leaves (we’ll suggest the Catholics or Lutherans here)…and the non-denominational group approaches the same people in the same village/town…

The Catholics (and/or Lutherans) told them about Jesus and his Sacrifice, on the cross, for our sins…his death and resurrection…shared with them gospel accounts and gave them physical, educational, and medical aid as well.

What, then, do the non-denominational christians do? They obviously aren’t the first to share the Good News to these peoples. Do they, then, offer their services and keep to the essentials (a limited, non-doctrinal presentation of christianity)…and share Jesus’ message, without highlighting any differences in beliefs/doctrines of those held by the previous group(s). Or do they try and suggest, to these people, that Catholicism and/or Lutheranism is false (for the following reasons…). Do they tell them that liturgical worship (held by both previous groups) is ritualistic, etc. Do they downplay the views of either, regarding ‘Real Presence’ in the Eucharist?..spout their views about baptism being symbolic-only, etc., etc., etc.?

This happens quite a lot. This same scenario happens within ‘rival’ Protestant groups. Each would claim that they have the truth, when it comes to interpretation of Scripture.

I’ve heard it said that missionaries often have to give watered down ‘essentials only’ presentations, to avoid proslyetyzing (trying to convert those from one christian denomination (we’ll include Catholicism, though it isn’t a denomination)…to another.

Apparently, it’s a term in use, and known to missionaries. That’s why I find it an affront…that these ‘missionaries’ would choose a city that they know is not some remote location (where people haven’t heard of Christ). They aren’t simply going after all the people (as if they could sort them out) that are atheists, Muslims, or secularized. They’re going in there, with the hopes to convert Catholics (since the majority of Italians have always been Catholic). I don’t think that they would stop themselves from trying to tell a Catholic priest (as I’ve mentioned before) the Good News–precisely because they do not think that Catholics are saved. Neither would they, by their own definition, be able to accept Lutherans, Anglicans, or the Orthodox, as Christians either (and all fair game for ‘sheep stealing’).

So, is there such a thing? Or are you going to continue to avoid the reality of such scenarios.

You have yet to comment about whether you think that 'those that go to the ‘World Youth Days’ are missionaries or proslytyzing?

 

[SteveGC]

**We are commanded to go to all of the world, which includes the country of Italy. **

Yes, but “we” are not supposed to be doing so as separatists of The Church. You see, the problem Catholics have with protestant evangelization, although we commend the efforts and zeal with which you attempt to spread a partial version of the truth, is that you do so in protest of the very Church that originally received the command to do this. Since you don’t accept the historical Church, you won’t see the point I’m making. Suffice it to say that protestant evangelization is commendable only inasmuch as it limits its evangelization to those dogmatic truths which precisely align with The Church’s deposit of Faith, entrusted to Her by Christ. Problem is, this is rarely what protestant evangelism limits itself too…hence, the conflict.

We are called to spread the TRUTH, the FULL TRUTH. Not a partial truth, lest we lead someone down the wrong road. Evangelizing as a protestant is limited to partial truth. When it attempts to do more, it spreads falsehood, which is spiritually perilous.

As for the claim that The Church has changed its stance on certain truths, this is nonsense. Only if you choose to listen to those outside The Church will you hold to that understanding. The Church CANNOT change dogma, as given in the deposit of faith from Christ. The only thing She does throughout history is retranslate them for a changing, evolving society that needs modern understanding in the light of a modernistic world.

And someone said “if the Pope can’t get it done in his own backyard, we’re going to do it…”. To that, I would say this… you’re not supposed to be doing anything separate from The Church, which Christ shepherds through the instrument of The Pope. It’s not you vs. the Pope, or, who’s failing to evangelize…who will pick up the slack. We are all called to be united under The Church. You only see it as a contrast because you’ve erroneously chosen to be separate from Her. We’re all called to evangelize in Italy (and everywhere else), as one Body of Christ.

If anyone’s interested, here’s a link to the Catechism section which discusses The Church’s leadership role with regard to mission work. Click here

God Bless

 

[byzgirl]

Yes, but “we” are not supposed to be doing so as separatists of The Church. You see, the problem Catholics have with protestant evangelization, although we commend the efforts and zeal with which you attempt to spread a partial version of the truth, is that you do so in protest of the very Church that originally received the command to do this. Since you don’t accept the historical Church, you won’t see the point I’m making. Suffice it to say that protestant evangelization is commendable only inasmuch as it limits its evangelization to those dogmatic truths which precisely align with The Church’s deposit of Faith, entrusted to Her by Christ. Problem is, this is rarely what protestant evangelism limits itself too…hence, the conflict.

We are called to spread the TRUTH, the FULL TRUTH. Not a partial truth, lest we lead someone down the wrong road. Evangelizing as a protestant is limited to partial truth. When it attempts to do more, it spreads falsehood, which is spiritually perilous.

As for the claim that The Church has changed its stance on certain truths, this is nonsense. Only if you choose to listen to those outside The Church will you hold to that understanding. The Church CANNOT change dogma, as given in the deposit of faith from Christ. The only thing She does throughout history is retranslate them for a changing, evolving society that needs modern understanding in the light of a modernistic world.

And someone said “if the Pope can’t get it done in his own backyard, we’re going to do it…”. To that, I would say this… you’re not supposed to be doing anything separate from The Church, which Christ shepherds through the instrument of The Pope. It’s not you vs. the Pope, or, who’s failing to evangelize…who will pick up the slack. We are all called to be united under The Church. You only see it as a contrast because you’ve erroneously chosen to be separate from Her. We’re all called to evangelize in Italy (and everywhere else), as one Body of Christ.

God Bless

Amen!!! Great post!!! You managed to convey everyting I wish I could (and without so much typing)!!!

 

[DD2007]

No one is denying that, and it’s unnecessary to keep repeating it. I am not arguing against that.

I have no interest in reading the “article” that you offer. Especially in light of the fact that I doubt you read the article that I offered to you.

Knowing and/or being able to recite bible verses is not indicative of one’s eternal destination. It’s wonderful for Christians to study the Word of God, and to be uplifted and guided by it’s infallible truths…but, there still remains the problem of interpretation.

This is getting slightly off the topic at hand. You haven’t exactly answered any of my questions.

Are you denying that prostelyzing occurs? Is your claim that there’s no such thing?

Let’s offer a scenario just for the sake of discussion (and this has and does happen):

In a country, where missionaries often travel…we have two, perhaps three ‘missionary groups’…one Catholic, one Lutheran, and one non-denominational in the same area, ‘witnessing’ and ‘aiding’ people who are in need spiritually and physically. Perhaps one group leaves (we’ll suggest the Catholics or Lutherans here)…and the non-denominational group approaches the same people in the same village/town…

The Catholics (and/or Lutherans) told them about Jesus and his Sacrifice, on the cross, for our sins…his death and resurrection…shared with them gospel accounts and gave them physical, educational, and medical aid as well.

What, then, do the non-denominational christians do? They obviously aren’t the first to share the Good News to these peoples. Do they, then, offer their services and keep to the essentials (a limited, non-doctrinal presentation of christianity)…and share Jesus’ message, without highlighting any differences in beliefs/doctrines of those held by the previous group(s). Or do they try and suggest, to these people, that Catholicism and/or Lutheranism is false (for the following reasons…). Do they tell them that liturgical worship (held by both previous groups) is ritualistic, etc. Do they downplay the views of either, regarding ‘Real Presence’ in the Eucharist?..spout their views about baptism being symbolic-only, etc., etc., etc.?

This happens quite a lot. This same scenario happens within ‘rival’ Protestant groups. Each would claim that they have the truth, when it comes to interpretation of Scripture.

I’ve heard it said that missionaries often have to give watered down ‘essentials only’ presentations, to avoid proslyetyzing (trying to convert those from one christian denomination (we’ll include Catholicism, though it isn’t a denomination)…to another.

Apparently, it’s a term in use, and known to missionaries. That’s why I find it an affront…that these ‘missionaries’ would choose a city that they know is not some remote location (where people haven’t heard of Christ). They aren’t simply going after all the people (as if they could sort them out) that are atheists, Muslims, or secularized. They’re going in there, with the hopes to convert Catholics (since the majority of Italians have always been Catholic). I don’t think that they would stop themselves from trying to tell a Catholic priest (as I’ve mentioned before) the Good News–precisely because they do not think that Catholics are saved. Neither would they, by their own definition, be able to accept Lutherans, Anglicans, or the Orthodox, as Christians either (and all fair game for ‘sheep stealing’).

So, is there such a thing? Or are you going to continue to avoid the reality of such scenarios.

You have yet to comment about whether you think that 'those that go to the ‘World Youth Days’ are missionaries or proslytyzing?

I have always argued against those who think that Catholics specifically need to be evangelized to Christ.

Howevr, lately I’m on the fence. I can see how in some ways there is a need and in others there isn’t.

There is certainly a need to evangelize those who claim to be Catholic but never go to Church. However I’m on the fence about the need for evangelizing those who do go to Church. I have always said no in the past.

 

[Seeking12]

Yes, but “we” are not supposed to be doing so as separatists of The Church. You see, the problem Catholics have with protestant evangelization, although we commend the efforts and zeal with which you attempt to spread a partial version of the truth, is that you do so in protest of the very Church that originally received the command to do this. Since you don’t accept the historical Church, you won’t see the point I’m making. Suffice it to say that protestant evangelization is commendable only inasmuch as it limits its evangelization to those dogmatic truths which precisely align with The Church’s deposit of Faith, entrusted to Her by Christ. Problem is, this is rarely what protestant evangelism limits itself too…hence, the conflict.

We are called to spread the TRUTH, the FULL TRUTH. Not a partial truth, lest we lead someone down the wrong road. Evangelizing as a protestant is limited to partial truth. When it attempts to do more, it spreads falsehood, which is spiritually perilous.

As for the claim that The Church has changed its stance on certain truths, this is nonsense. Only if you choose to listen to those outside The Church will you hold to that understanding. The Church CANNOT change dogma, as given in the deposit of faith from Christ. The only thing She does throughout history is retranslate them for a changing, evolving society that needs modern understanding in the light of a modernistic world.

And someone said “if the Pope can’t get it done in his own backyard, we’re going to do it…”. To that, I would say this… you’re not supposed to be doing anything separate from The Church, which Christ shepherds through the instrument of The Pope. It’s not you vs. the Pope, or, who’s failing to evangelize…who will pick up the slack. We are all called to be united under The Church. You only see it as a contrast because you’ve erroneously chosen to be separate from Her. We’re all called to evangelize in Italy (and everywhere else), as one Body of Christ.

If anyone’s interested, here’s a link to the Catechism section which discusses The Church’s leadership role with regard to mission work. Click here

God Bless

In some ways I don’t see the issue because if anyone is outside of the Catholic church they are anathema.

 

[SteveGC]

In some ways I don’t see the issue because if anyone is outside of the Catholic church they are anathema.

You might want to read up a bit on anathema. Click here

God Bless

 

[byzgirl]

I have always argued against those who think that Catholics specifically need to be evangelized to Christ.

Howevr, lately I’m on the fence. I can see how in some ways there is a need and in others there isn’t.

There is certainly a need to evangelize those who claim to be Catholic but never go to Church. However I’m on the fence about the need for evangelizing those who do go to Church. I have always said no in the past.

The Church is always in need of evangelizing and reforming (FROM WITHIN). Christ’s desire is for one Church, not many.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as You are in Me and I am in You. May they also be in Us so that the world may believe that You have sent Me. I have given them the glory that you gave Me, that they may be one as We are one.” (John 17:20-22)
“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:5)

Division openly contradicts the will of Christ, provides a stumbling block to the world, and inflicts damage on the most holy cause of proclaiming the Good News to every creature." - Pope John Paul II

“You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107

Christ instituted this New Covenant, establishing an international or universal covenant family: the Church. The New Covenant thus fulfills and transcends the covenants of the Old Testament. All people are called to be in this New Covenant family; it is no longer just for those belonging to a particular tribe, nation, or kingdom. The covenant family has grown to be universal or catholic.

Edited by Scott Hahn and Leon J. Suprenant, Jr.

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”

St. Cyprian, AD 251 The Unity of the Catholic Church

We should work and pray toward unity, and heal the scars of the Protestant Reformation and the Schism of the Orthodox Church…so that we can stand, together, in the face of evil…and in the name of Christ…as Christians united in one Body, one Church.

 

[Seeking12]

You might want to read up a bit on anathema. Click here

God Bless

**Are you suggesting the anathemas are not condemnations by the Council of Trent, which Vatican II confirms? **

 

[DD2007]

We should work and pray toward unity, and heal the scars of the Protestant Reformation and the Schism of the Orthodox Church…so that we can stand, together, in the face of evil…and in the name of Christ…as Christians united in one Body, one Church.

There is only one church. It has many denominations. The gospel of Christ is the truth that the church holds up. Where the gospel is preached there is the church. No one is forbidden to preach teh gospel.

Luke 9:49-50
[49] John answered, “Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us.”
[50] But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.”

The Catholic Church will need to admit many errors it’s leaders have made such as the infallibility of the pope. Then stop all devotions to anyone but God, proclaim the truth of the authority of scripture, and fully acknowledge that man is saved by grace through faith and not of works, and acknowledge the priesthood of the believer, before we can come together.

Jesus is to be preached throughout the world. All who preach the gospel preach the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross in atonement for the sins of man, he was raised from the dead on the third day. He ascended into heaven. Jesus Christ is Lord.

Acts 4:12

[12] And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

 

[byzgirl]

The Catholic Church will need to admit many errors it’s leaders have made such as the infallibility of the pope. Then stop all devotions to anyone but God, proclaim the truth of the authority of scripture, and fully acknowledge that man is saved by grace through faith and not of works, and acknowledge the priesthood of the believer, before we can come together.

****That’s a mouthful…You’ve set up a lot of ‘conditions’…yet, these things have all been answered, and consistently ignored by Protestants. The infallibility of the Pope is not a man-made doctrine. It’s by the power of the Holy Spirit, by God alone, that it is possible. And the reason God made it possible, by His Will, is to protect and guide His Church from the gates of Hell. If it weren’t for that, we wouldn’t have anything close to ‘orthodox’ christianity now…The infalliblity of the Pope is God’s guidance and protection over ‘teaching error’. ** From the earliest centuries of the Church, heretics threatened Her. If it weren’t for that promise, the Church wouldn’t be Trinitarian today, and certainly would have deviated into chaos (adopting heretical doctrines at every turn, and by every whim of heretics). It had to have the power of God to discern the truth from the falsehood. **

**B]How do you explain 1 Timothy 3:15? The Church, not the Bible, is called the pillar and foundation of Truth. How can Truth be known, if Protestants interpret Scripture according to their own opinion? God provided an answer, and Scripture (as indicated in this verse) declares it as the ‘way’ to know the Truth. If the New Testamant was penned at the time of Pentecost, and the NT canon undecided for centuries…how could it have been the sole authority? ** The Church was in existence before the NT was (it’s a human and divine product of the Church). The Bible is the book of the Church and cannot be separated from Her.

B]Do you obey the 4th commandment? Do you honor your mother and your father? Would you say that you are ‘devoted’ to your family? Does that mean that you ‘worship’ them? No. It doesn’t. This is such a tired objection.
Adoration and worship is for God alone. We don’t worship Mary or the saints. We give them honor, as does God, who shares his Divine life with the elect. God is glorious in His Saints. /B]

Jesus is to be preached throughout the world. All who preach the gospel preach the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross in atonement for the sins of man, he was raised from the dead on the third day. He ascended into heaven. Jesus Christ is Lord.

Acts 4:12

[12] And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

As for “fully acknowledge that man is saved by grace through faith and not of works”–
**The Catholic Church teaches that it is by Grace alone that we are saved. It also, harmoniously teaches that, by that grace, we have a faith that is ‘dead without works’. It’s a living faith, that is ‘dead’ without love. It is God’s grace, given to us in faith, that enables us to do His work. It’s not ours. It’s His…and He supernaturally empowers the faithful to do the works He has set before us to do. We cooperate with that grace, to fulfill the deeds He has planned for us. We strive to be in harmony with His Will–which is only possible by God’s grace.

“First of all, the term “works” in St. Paul’s writings, when contrasted to the word “faith,” always refers to the works of the Mosaic Law, not to good works in general. Keep in mind that the main heresy that St. Paul addressed in his epistles was the teaching of the Judaizers, who taught that in order to be saved, one had to not only accept Jesus as Messiah, but also submit to the entire Mosaic Law. St. Paul argued against this heresy in many of his epistles, including Galatians, where he says justification is not by “the works of the Law.” Here he only says “works” and not specifically “the works of the Law.” Could the Apostle be referring to any good works in general? If he were, then why would he have told the Romans, “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger” (Romans 2:7-8).”

You’re forcing a false dichotomy that speaks contrary to the entire context of the place of works, in Scripture. It is the same reason that Martin Luther called the book of James an epistle of straw. He didn’t like the fact that James called a faith, without works, dead. "St. Paul, the other New Testament authors, and the Lord Jesus himself all taught that salvation is indeed by faith, but not by faith alone. In fact, the only place in the Bible where the phrase “faith alone” is used is James 2:24: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.” So, how do we reconcile this apparent problem? The key is in St. James’ saying “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). So you see, faith and works are not distinct realities, but rather are two sides of the same coin. True faith in Christ always includes works. Therefore works are necessary for salvation because faith is necessary for salvation.

I’ll save your last ‘condition’ for another post.**…

 

[byzgirl]

[The Catholic Church must] acknowledge the priesthood of the believer, before we can come together

**“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.” --1 Peter 2:9

With these words, the Apostle Peter describes all Christians as a “priesthood” – and indeed, that is exactly what Christians are, as the Catholic Church teaches (for the full official teaching on this see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, especially paragraphs 1533-1600).
**

**B]When one is Baptised in the Catholic Church, one is also “christened” with oil, and so anointed as a Priest, a Prophet, and a King. Why? Because, in Baptism, we become adopted sons and daughters of God (Romans 8:14-17); and, in this, we share in the very same Sonship which Christ Himself enjoys with the Father. Becoming members of His Body, we must act as Christ to the world. We are anointed as a King because we share in His royalty (His Messiahship); we are anointed as a Prophet because we are to speak His words and carry His Gospel to all; and we are anointed a Priest because we are to share in Christ’s own High Priesthood. In this, we are to intercede for the world.

And this is exactly the definition of a priest: “Someone who is an intermediary and who offers a sacrifice on behalf of another.” And, as priests, all Christians do this for the world. As Christians (redeemed by the Blood of Christ), we offer Christ’s Sacrifice for the sake of the world. As Christians, we are able to pray:

“Eternal Father, I offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.” (see 1 Tim 2:1-6; 1 John 2:1-2).

And, in the Catholic understanding, this prayer is especially appropriate and powerful just after we have received Jesus in Holy Communion (the Eucharist). More on that later.

So, as Christians we are priests; and, as priests, we are intercessors between Christ and the world (Christ being the one Mediator between us and the Father – 1 Tim 2:5). And this is what the Catholic Church refers to as the “common priesthood of the laity.”

However, aside from this common priesthood – a priesthood which ministers directly to the world, there is also a priesthood which ministers to the Church itself.

Romans 15:15-16 --“But I have written to you rather boldly in some respects to remind you, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the PRIESTLY service of the Gospel of God, so that the offering up of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

This is the ministerial priesthood of the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church – a priesthood which does not minister directly to the world, but which ministers to those within the Church itself, which builds up the Church and aids the “little ones” through a ministry of unity, leadership, teaching authority, and the Sacraments. A ministry which succeeds to that of the Apostles themselves.

Acts 14:23 --“They (Paul and Barnabas) appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in Whom they put their faith.”

Were all these Christians “priests” (1 Peter 2:9) ? Yes, they were. However, not all were “a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the PRIESTLY service of the Gospel of God.” (Romans 15:15-16). This was the role of the ministerial priesthood, of which Scripture commands us to:

“Respect those who are laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you, and show esteem for them with special love on account of their work.” (1 Thess 5:12)

And…

“Obey those who have the rule over you, and submit yourselves; for they watch for your souls, as they that must give an account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17)

Amen.**

See the entire article. Click here: bringyou.to/apologetics/a31.htm

 

[byzgirl]

**Are you suggesting the anathemas are not condemnations by the Council of Trent, which Vatican II confirms? **

No. Anathemas are not condemnations.

And this, (from the CARM web site–which happens to be a Protestant web site…ironically, this web site is also anti-Catholic and doesn’t accept Catholics as Christians and actually do condemn us to hell (as the unsaved). So, if you can’t take our word for it, you can read what they say here:

"**a Catholic anathema is not a pronouncement of damnation (separation from Christ) **but a declaration that an individual is excluded from the fellowship of the Roman Catholic church which includes denial of Communion and the Catholic sacraments.

So, when official Roman Catholic documents pronounce anathema it means that the person is not in right standing with their church, is not to take the sacraments, and might be under discipline. It is an excommunication and at the very least a very strong condemnation of the person’s actions and/or beliefs as being against the Catholic Church."

 

[DD2007]

Then I guess there will never be reconcilliation of the denominations. If the RCC isn’t willing to repent of it’s errors then the rest of Christianity will always remain separate.

That’s why there was separation during the reformation. Rome wasn’t willing to reform. They decided to stay in error and persecute those who believed the bible, so people are now free to worship in spirit and truth without the persecutions from Rome. I think the reformation was necessary to bring the world back to the bible where they can learn about Christ.

 

[byzgirl]

Then I guess there will never be reconcilliation of the denominations. If the RCC isn’t willing to repent of it’s errors then the rest of Christianity will always remain separate.

That’s why there was separation during the reformation. Rome wasn’t willing to reform. They decided to stay in error and persecute those who believed the bible, so people are now free to worship in spirit and truth without the persecutions from Rome. I think the reformation was necessary to bring the world back to the bible where they can learn about Christ.

So, in other words, you have no response to the answers I gave to you? You come back and offer this??? You do not recognize your own, personal need for reconcilation. For you cannot separate Christ and the Church. ‘the rest of Christianity’ is the remnant and the splintered members of the Body who have wandered off, and need to be brought back into the embrace of His Church (where you belong).

You’ve jumped over a great majority of history, to claim that ‘everyone before the Reformation’ (all those saints, early church fathers and doctors of the Church…martyrs…you know…the first 1500 years of Church history)…was in error and completely clueless. Until one man…Martin Luther (who wanted to throw out books of the Bible that are currently part of your canon! (you know, the book that you want to claim as your own…and the same one that the Church supposedly ‘persecuted’ (that’s funny…I wonder how they could’ve persecuted bible readers in the first centuries…when Bibles weren’t availabe…and the canon undecided. But that’s your sad theory…and I guess your stickin’ to it.

It sure does fly in the face of the early church and the beliefs that were unanimously shared by it’s earliest members! It’s comical how Protestants want to ‘be like the early church’–yet avoid the reality of what the Church actually believed…and claim a catastophic ‘apostasy’ soon after its conception. And God then waited, 1500 years, for Martin Luther to come and rectify His Church.

We could speak of all the various ‘apostasy’ theories out there…but that’d be fruitless. You’ve already got your mind made up.

You’re beginning to do the ‘typical’ thing that Protestants tend to do (when they don’t have a response to answers given)…dishing out as many objections (unrelated, even)…just to wear down the person trying to answer. Your lack of sincerity is showing.

 

[DD2007]

So, in other words, you have no response to the answers I gave to you? You come back and offer this??? You do not recognize your own, personal need for reconcilation. For you cannot separate Christ and the Church. ‘the rest of Christianity’ is the remnant and the splintered members of the Body who have wandered off, and need to be brought back into the embrace of His Church (where you belong).

You’ve jumped over a great majority of history, to claim that ‘everyone before the Reformation’ (all those saints, early church fathers and doctors of the Church…martyrs…you know…the first 1500 years of Church history)…was in error and completely clueless. Until one man…Martin Luther (who wanted to throw out books of the Bible that are currently part of your canon! (you know, the book that you want to claim as your own…and the same one that the Church supposedly ‘persecuted’ (that’s funny…I wonder how they could’ve persecuted bible readers in the first centuries…when Bibles weren’t availabe…and the canon undecided. But that’s your sad theory…and I guess your stickin’ to it.

It sure does fly in the face of the early church and the beliefs that were unanimously shared by it’s earliest members! It’s comical how Protestants want to ‘be like the early church’–yet avoid the reality of what the Church actually believed…and claim a catastophic ‘apostasy’ soon after its conception. And God then waited, 1500 years, for Martin Luther to come and rectify His Church.

We could speak of all the various ‘apostasy’ theories out there…but that’d be fruitless. You’ve already got your mind made up.

You’re beginning to do the ‘typical’ thing that Protestants tend to do (when they don’t have a response to answers given)…dishing out as many objections (unrelated, even)…just to wear down the person trying to answer. Your lack of sincerity is showing.

Look, I’m just trying not to get way off topic. Sorry, sometimes threads can go astray.

You were wondering why people would want to evangelize Italy and I told you the statistics.

32% of Italians go to Church. 27% have read a bible passage in the last year, and only a lowly 14% can answer basic questions about the bible such as are the 4 gospels in the bible. Only 14% answered the correct yes!

So that’s why missionaries are in route. I’m not here to argue against the Catholic faith. I just answered the question you asked and gave you a link you later said you’d not read.

Here is the source link for the article where I got the statistics if you would like to look at it: upi.com/Top_News/2008/10/14/Survey_Italians_ignorant_of_Bible/UPI-63131224026050

So, that’s really all I have to say on the topic. That’s actually all I know on the topic of missions to Italy.

 

[Seeking12]

**“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.” --1 Peter 2:9

With these words, the Apostle Peter describes all Christians as a “priesthood” – and indeed, that is exactly what Christians are, as the Catholic Church teaches (for the full official teaching on this see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, especially paragraphs 1533-1600).
**

**B]When one is Baptised in the Catholic Church, one is also “christened” with oil, and so anointed as a Priest, a Prophet, and a King. Why? Because, in Baptism, we become adopted sons and daughters of God (Romans 8:14-17); and, in this, we share in the very same Sonship which Christ Himself enjoys with the Father. Becoming members of His Body, we must act as Christ to the world. We are anointed as a King because we share in His royalty (His Messiahship); we are anointed as a Prophet because we are to speak His words and carry His Gospel to all; and we are anointed a Priest because we are to share in Christ’s own High Priesthood. In this, we are to intercede for the world.

And this is exactly the definition of a priest: “Someone who is an intermediary and who offers a sacrifice on behalf of another.” And, as priests, all Christians do this for the world. As Christians (redeemed by the Blood of Christ), we offer Christ’s Sacrifice for the sake of the world. As Christians, we are able to pray:

“Eternal Father, I offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.” (see 1 Tim 2:1-6; 1 John 2:1-2).

And, in the Catholic understanding, this prayer is especially appropriate and powerful just after we have received Jesus in Holy Communion (the Eucharist). More on that later.

So, as Christians we are priests; and, as priests, we are intercessors between Christ and the world (Christ being the one Mediator between us and the Father – 1 Tim 2:5). And this is what the Catholic Church refers to as the “common priesthood of the laity.”

However, aside from this common priesthood – a priesthood which ministers directly to the world, there is also a priesthood which ministers to the Church itself.

Romans 15:15-16 --“But I have written to you rather boldly in some respects to remind you, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the PRIESTLY service of the Gospel of God, so that the offering up of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

This is the ministerial priesthood of the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church – a priesthood which does not minister directly to the world, but which ministers to those within the Church itself, which builds up the Church and aids the “little ones” through a ministry of unity, leadership, teaching authority, and the Sacraments. A ministry which succeeds to that of the Apostles themselves.

Acts 14:23 --“They (Paul and Barnabas) appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in Whom they put their faith.”

Were all these Christians “priests” (1 Peter 2:9) ? Yes, they were. However, not all were “a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the PRIESTLY service of the Gospel of God.” (Romans 15:15-16). This was the role of the ministerial priesthood, of which Scripture commands us to:

“Respect those who are laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you, and show esteem for them with special love on account of their work.” (1 Thess 5:12)

And…

“Obey those who have the rule over you, and submit yourselves; for they watch for your souls, as they that must give an account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17)

Amen.**

See the entire article. Click here: bringyou.to/apologetics/a31.htm

You left out one important problem; there is no more earthly priesthood except that of the saints or believers and Christ is the “High Priest” sitting at the right hand of God always to make intercession for His elect. You will not find a Catholic priesthood in Scripture and furthermore; we have from Scripture one spiritual Father; there is not earthly spiritual Father. God will and does consider that as blasphemous. Using the old and rather weak argument, “don’t you call your dad “father””? He is an earthly father, but not the spiritual Father who is in heaven, which is what Jesus referred to.(Abba). Until people get and understand that they remain in unbelief.

 

[byzgirl]

You left out one important problem; there is no more earthly priesthood except that of the saints or believers and Christ is the “High Priest” sitting at the right hand of God always to make intercession for His elect. You will not find a Catholic priesthood in Scripture and furthermore; we have from Scripture one spiritual Father; there is not earthly spiritual Father. God will and does consider that as blasphemous. Using the old and rather weak argument, “don’t you call your dad “father””? He is an earthly father, but not the spiritual Father who is in heaven, which is what Jesus referred to.(Abba). Until people get and understand that they remain in unbelief.

Well, then…how do you explain the Scripture verses, offered, which show ‘earthly saints’ being referred to as “Father”? Can you not fathom (because of your prejudice toward the CATHOLIC priesthood) that, as beings created in God’s image, that we reflect His likeness?

We KNOW that calling our dads ‘father’ is a far different thing than calling God “Father”. But we are also meant, as earthly children, to obey our Father (just like we are to obey our heavenly Father). What if we were all to day to our dad’s…I don’t have to listen to you! You’re not my heavenly Father (and he’s the only one that has the authority to tell me what to do!!!).

No. God SHARES his Fatherhood with earthly fathers, in the same way that he shares his Fatherhood with his earthly, spiritual leaders (Fathers, Teachers). He GIVES earthly fathers and teachers a share in his authority (to teach, to be a role model, to admonish and guide). That’s not upsurping God…it’s God’s Will.

“At the Last Supper, Jesus gave His Church the gift of the ministerial priesthood. He gave His apostles the authority to act in His person with the authority given by the Father. Jesus had made this clear in Matthew 10:40 as noted above, and He reemphasized it in John 17 when, while praying to the Father, He said, “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me . . . As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world” (vv. 12,18). This Sacrament of Holy Orders makes present the graces necessary for our spiritual rebirth and sustenance in Christ. For it is at the hands of priests that we are baptized, confirmed, and receive the precious body and blood of Our Lord. The title “father” does not confer upon priests the same status proper to Our Heavenly Father alone, nor does it diminish God’s absolute and universal fatherhood. However, it is incorrect to interpret Matthew 23:9 in an exclusively literal sense. In 1 Corinthians 4:15, St. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, says, “For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” St. Paul calls himself “father” because he recognizes his cooperation with God in begetting the spiritual life of the community entrusted to his care. There are several other passages, such as Acts 7:2; Acts 22:1; Corinthians 4:15; Galatians 4:19; 1 John 2:12; and Philemon 10, which show that the title “father” was applied to others besides God and biological fathers in the New Testament.”

For on this level, interpreting Matthew 23:9 in an exclusively literal sense would undermine the Fourth Commandment. Most will recognize that in no way does this title take away from the ultimate power and authority God has over human life: “Thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb” (Ps. 139:13). Rather, we recognize that all fatherhood comes from God, as St. Paul teaches in Ephesians 3:14-15: “For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named. . . .”

"In this context, we can explain the fatherhood of a priest. Rather than bearing the authority of man and providing an example of pride as the scribes and Pharisees, a priest bears the authority of God in the New Covenant sealed in the blood of Christ. With such a commission, the priest is obligated to live in service to others.

Thus, whether we are speaking of biological fathers or spiritual fathers, we understand men in both circumstances to be participating in the one fatherhood of God. This is a gift from God, and must be lived in a godly manner. Only in this way can they raise their children to be children of light. "

I think, at the basis of most Protestant problems is the heresy of Gnosticism…separation of the saints in heaven from the saints on earth…separation of the spiritual and the earthly.

“Salvation is not only from sin, but for sonship – in Christ. We are not only forgiven by God’s grace, we are adopted and divinized, that is, we “become partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4). This is ultimately why God created us, to share in the life-giving love of the Trinity.” – Scott Hahn and Leon Suprenant