Protecting your H.S., College children from scientific gibberish

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Linusthe2nd said:
Please stay on topic. Start a new thread if you like but something else is being discussed here. Linus2nd
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Linusthe2nd said:
Please stay on topic. We are discussing how to save our Christian youth from threats to their faith while away at school. Start a new thread if you want. Linus2nd
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This actually is on topic or at least closely related. Aux1 and I are essentially discussing if there is even such a need as you feel there is.
 
aux1 said:
There is a problem regarding doctrine of the Original Sin. This is what Humani Generis says:

The problem is this: the Church teaches that all people are tainted with original sin, because all people are descended from Adam & Eve, who were the first humans. However, population genetics tells us that there were never only 2 humans (or proto-humans) – the minimum population size is in the thousands.

So, say that Adam lived among 1000 other (proto-)humans. It follows, that you could find people living after Adam whose lineage does not trace back to Adam, only to his contemporaries. But if so, then these people would not be tainted with original sin, as it is (supposedly) a hereditiary disorder. On the other hand, there is no distinguishable group of not-fallen humans: all humans are imperfect. So the doctrine of the original sin, as traditionally understood, collapses.

Note though, that the encyclical doesn’t say that it’s impossible to reconcile polygenism and original sin – only that it is not apparent how these could be reconciled. There is some fascinating theological work being done in the area. One of the more radical approaches is that original sin is not a genetic disease, but rather an idea of disobeying God, which spread among the early humans once someone figured it out for the first time…
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In the Catholic Church, Original Sin was never a genetic disease. Also, Catholicism currently maintains that Original Sin was not an idea but a real action chosen by a real person. These facts help form the basis for a sound understanding of the Catholic Faith by students.
 
Razanir said:
The counterargument here is that evolution does not imply polygenism
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While polygenism can refer to place, this century’s common usuage of polygenism in reference to current theories of human origin is implied by the evolution theory.
 
grannymh said:
In the Catholic Church, Original Sin was never a genetic disease. Also, Catholicism currently maintains that Original Sin was not an idea but a real action chosen by a real person. These facts help form the basis for a sound understanding of the Catholic Faith by students.
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We are discussing ways to keep our youth from being corrupted by anti-Christian pseudo science/philosophy in secular institutions. This is the reason the Magis Center of Reason and Faith exists. It and other endeavors teach parents and the college bound young how to withstand the pseudo intellectual indoctrination to which they will be exposed. So let’s stick to the topic. I am truely amazed that any Catholic would question the need, perhaps those who have questioned the need ( see above examples ) are not Catholic. How do we know? We have only their word for it. Linus2nd
 
Razanir said:
This actually is on topic or at least closely related. Aux1 and I are essentially discussing if there is even such a need as you feel there is.
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Are you really Catholic or Christian? How could you doubt it ? That is why the Magis Center of Reason and Faith exists. Don’t you think Fr. Spitzer knows what he is talking about? Check out the site. Perhaps you two are immune but experience tells the Church that there is a real problem. Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Are you really Catholic or Christian? How could you doubt it ? That is why the Magis Center of Reason and Faith exists. Don’t you think Fr. Spitzer knows what he is talking about? Check out the site. Perhaps you two are immune but experience tells the Church that there is a real problem. Linus2nd
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I’m slightly offended by this. Yes, I am Catholic! :mad: I was merely pointing out that I do not think the problem is nearly as prevalent as you seem to think.
 
Many campuses have egregious student censorship programs as well as indoctrination programs for incoming freshmen.
I recommend this book by Greg Lukianoff: Unlearning Liberty–Campus Censorship and the End of American Debate.

The only thing that is more startling than the brazenness of some of these free speech restrictions and indoctrination programs is the equanimity with which many students meekly accept them.

Mr. Lukianoff is an atheist and an ardent liberal. Yet he and his organization have often found themselves defending the free speech rights of Christians on campus, along with trying to protect them from unwelcome indoctrination.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
It is a wide spread phenonena and is pretty universal in secular colleges and universities. It can come up in almost any speciality, especially if you have an instructor or professor who has an ax to grind. I don’t know how often it extends to stating flat out that " God doesn’t exist. " Mostly it consists of ridiculing faith and the belief in God or the morality taught by Christianity. But I have heard of graduate students being put on the spot because of their religious and moral beliefs. Yes, it is a serious problem which the Catholic Church is well aware of and is trying to combat.

In secular high schools the problem if felt just by ignoring the contributions of Faith to the history of civilization and of course attempting to indoctrinate students into moral views contrary to their faith. In our high schools today :" toleration " is the password. Toleration for anything but moral and spiritual truth. Linus2nd
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I don’t know, Linus. I’ve studied at three different universities (okay, one was Catholic) and have never come across lecturers, tutors or the administration ridiculing the faith or either implicitly or explicitly undermining Christianity. Certainly, there are groups on campus (political parties, student unions, etc.) who do this. Moreover, you’re often presented (at least in Liberal Arts and Philosophy degrees) with reading material and ideas that seem to argue against the faith, however, I’ve often found the better teachers try to strike a balance and give arguments from both sides.

The best way to defend the faith in university is to know it, and to know arguments arguments used by those who challenge it, such as Hume, Marx, Nietzsche, and so on. Oh, and live it too - that can’t be beat!

Jonathan
 
grannymh said:
Yes. Polygenism (population genetics) as applied to human origin.

With respect to this sticky at the top of this forum Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads

Usually investigation in any natural science research has been completed fairly and without bias. Otherwise, the top journals would not publish it. What will help non-scientific students is a basic understanding of the Scientific (inductive) Method, i.e., what it can and cannot do. For example, given that evidence regarding human origin can validly include assumptions and estimates, an universal cannot be proved with objective certainty. A personal interpretation of a research conclusion can say that “something” is most likely improbable, but it cannot say that “something” is impossible. Check out the Black Swan in Australia.🙂
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Actually, political correctness dominates high school and college science.

Instead of providing a firm foundation for scientific inquiry, students are bombarded with things like anthropogenic global warming in which allegations of man-made causations are discussed with virtually no reference to naturally occurring phenomena … both in the historic and contemporary time frames.

In addition, students are not being taught statistical analysis, which allows them to look at data and determine if the data are being correctly gathered. Instead we find repeatedly that when field data do not correspond with the theory, then the data is altered to conform to the politically correct assumptions … because as a non-scientist stated: “the science is settled”.

In fact, science is NEVER settled … you constantly have to look at real-world data.

I encourage people who are interested to visit www.junkscience.com which discusses many of the ways in which alleged science is being distorted.

There is also alfin2100.blogspot.com/ … and along the edge … scroll down … are dozens more scientific Web sites. Check them out.

Nuclear science is discussed in a number of blogs … in this one, the author has taken a job and discontinued his contemporaneous postings, HOWEVER … on the edge are a number of current blog postings by others which you can click on: … and link to other reliable information sources.

djysrv.blogspot.com/

And in this one, the author debunks the hysteria surrounding the tsunami damage to the Japanese nuclear power plants:

hiroshimasyndrome.com/fukushima-accident-updates.html

Somewhere around 30,000 people were killed by the earthquake and tsunami, but none were killed by radiation. But after two years, the hysteria being fanned by the media and the ignorance of the public officials has caused most of the tsunami and earthquake debris to remain uncollected and a third of Japan’s electric production has been shut down causing huge amounts of damage to the livelihoods of the Japanese people.

It requires math to understand nuclear science, and nothing terrifies people more than math.
 
My doctoral advisor once tried swaying me from the faith during a trip to a conference. Fortunately I was able to reasonably defend myself and he has not bothered me about it since.

The threat is definitely there and our children need to be knowledgeable of the faith before they step into the halls of high school.
 
Please also check out "Education Reporter" which discusses political correctness in education.

www.eagleforum.org

In addition, there is “Accuracy in Academia” which combats political correctness in education.

academia.org/
 
Linusthe2nd said:
It is a wide spread phenonena and is pretty universal in secular colleges and universities. It can come up in almost any speciality, especially if you have an instructor or professor who has an ax to grind. I don’t know how often it extends to stating flat out that " God doesn’t exist. " Mostly it consists of ridiculing faith and the belief in God or the morality taught by Christianity. But I have heard of graduate students being put on the spot because of their religious and moral beliefs.
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Well that’s interesting. I’ve had professors that would challenge a student’s stance on something all the time (though I never recall it being a religious stance that was challenged). It wasn’t to show that the student was wrong or had an indefensible idea, rather it was to encourage the students to be able to defend their stance. (Even good ideas or correct answers were some not accepted unless a student could justify or corroborate them). Something that was probably of high importance to those that were going on to attempt to get a PhD where they would be expected to be able to defend their work.

I’m wondering if my experience were different since my college concentrated on engineering majors (computer science, mechanical engineering, computer engineering, mecatronic engineering, …). Most of my class mates were from the continent of Asia or India when I got my master’s degree. Westerners were the minority for degrees above Bachelor’s. I may ask my associates that went to schools in other states what their experience was, just for curiosity’s sake.

In high school (I went to high school in a heavily Southern Baptist area) the teachers openly identified as Christian. But there were problems in the social studies classes. Some students would protest to learning about non-Christian religions (even though it was contextually relevant to the history classes) as they interpreted as an attack on their faith and an attempt to convert them.
 
Razanir said:
  1. It’s kinda illegal to teach religion at public schools. That whole separation of church and state thing
  2. Real science is not bad. It only becomes evil when it oversteps its bounds, like trying to prove a negative. It’s actually horrible logic for them to try to disprove God. You can’t prove a negative
  3. I’ve never gotten that sort of feeling from my teachers or professors. I actually got a St. Ignatius medal from my English professor at a public university
  4. You do realize many scientific discoveries/advances/theories were made not just by theists but by Catholics. The Big Bang, genetics, penicillin, the heliocentric model of the universe…
  5. Catholic doctrine is Creationism (God created everything) NOT Young-Earth Creationism (Genesis 1 is completely literal and it only took a week). Theistic evolution is entirely compatible with Catholic doctrine
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  1. Who said anything about teaching religion in public schools?
  2. I don’t think so. But since evolution is a banned topic, I won’t elaborate further.
Peace,
Ed
 
aux1 said:
There is a problem regarding doctrine of the Original Sin. This is what Humani Generis says:

The problem is this: the Church teaches that all people are tainted with original sin, because all people are descended from Adam & Eve, who were the first humans. However, population genetics tells us that there were never only 2 humans (or proto-humans) – the minimum population size is in the thousands.

So, say that Adam lived among 1000 other (proto-)humans. It follows, that you could find people living after Adam whose lineage does not trace back to Adam, only to his contemporaries. But if so, then these people would not be tainted with original sin, as it is (supposedly) a hereditiary disorder. On the other hand, there is no distinguishable group of not-fallen humans: all humans are imperfect. So the doctrine of the original sin, as traditionally understood, collapses.

Note though, that the encyclical doesn’t say that it’s impossible to reconcile polygenism and original sin – only that it is not apparent how these could be reconciled. There is some fascinating theological work being done in the area. One of the more radical approaches is that original sin is not a genetic disease, but rather an idea of disobeying God, which spread among the early humans once someone figured it out for the first time…
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Original Sin is not genetic, it is a Spiritual Disorder.

The last paragraph is a perfect example of how Catholics can get confused when science is forced into religious thought as if it - not Divine revelation - is the answer. The OP’s point is proven.

Peace,
Ed
 
For those who don’t believe there’s a problem, I recommend:

stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

And I have quotes from Biology textbooks where the writers draw purely personal, anti-religious, philosophical conclusions about the data.

Sure, young people who come from families and schools where they respected authority continue to believe that they can respect everything they hear from their instructors (no, I don’t mean math class), and so when even one instructor decides to put his anti-religious and/or ‘America is evil’ spin on things, they become confused.

A relative of mine who is in college now, brought home one of her textbooks which I looked through. When I questioned part of it, her emotional reply was, “Why would they lie to me?”

Thank you, Linusthe2nd - your words and observations are greatly needed today for the sake of our children and relatives.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
For those who don’t believe there’s a problem, I recommend:

stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

And I have quotes from Biology textbooks where the writers draw purely personal, anti-religious, philosophical conclusions about the data.

Sure, young people who come from families and schools where they respected authority continue to believe that they can respect everything they hear from their instructors (no, I don’t mean math class), and so when even one instructor decides to put his anti-religious and/or ‘America is evil’ spin on things, they become confused.

A relative of mine who is in college now, brought home one of her textbooks which I looked through. When I questioned part of it, her emotional reply was, “Why would they lie to me?”

Thank you, Linusthe2nd - your words and observations are greatly needed today for the sake of our children and relatives.

Peace,
Ed
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Thanks for th boost. I was getting a little discouraged at the response. But if it helps even a few that will be worth it. My nephew is challenged all the time at the school he attends and fires right back at his professors. But his faith is solid so I don’t worry about him. I worry about the ones who aren’t as solid as he is or who have no faith at all. Linus2nd
 
You’re welcome. I’ve learned that even helping one or two is very valuable. I had to stop thinking that if I don’t help a lot of people that something’s wrong. I encourage you to keep at it. The minds of the young who are otherwise well-schooled in their religion, can be blind-sided when a professor tells them something contrary to what they’ve been taught or goes so far as to ridicule religion as part of a science class. This can deform their thinking, and make them unsure about how to reconcile what they heard in college with the idea of respecting their instructors. In other words, like my relative, it’s clear that they get confused or they become deformed in their view of the world.

And college life is not high school. Too many look around and see inappropriate behavior and sometimes experience peer pressure to do the wrong thing. After all, they’re told, “You’re adults now and all that right-wrong stuff doesn’t matter. Let’s par-tay!!” And that includes being introduced to other students whose “scientific” thoughts are already deformed.

Best,
Ed
 
My wife and I hope to get them engaged with apologetics early, particularly secular apologetics. We need fear nothing from science, at least good science. There is nothing out there that refutes God. There can’t be, because God is the source of all truth.
 
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