Protecting your H.S., College children from scientific gibberish

[seakelp]

I literally laughed out loud when I read this. It would be fine to learn it there, except it would have to be some sort of miracle, because most people aren’t actually teaching it. If parents are capable, they should not trust HS science teachers to teach these things to their own children, but teach it themselves.

I find this a little offensive, and very insensitive. My mother is a high school science teacher, and a very capable one. She and her colleagues do an extraordinary job introducing students to the natural word.

Your comments clearly belie a hostile attitude towards science educators and science in general. You keep asserting that science is not taught in science classrooms, and yet, I cannot see a single piece of evidence from your posts suggesting that it is so.

In my experience, your comments are quite contrary to the truth of what goes on in science classrooms.

No, I’m worried that their science classrooms will be full of mistaken philosophy instead of real science. And that if children are not properly trained, they won’t know the difference. That was the point I was making.

–Jen

No one thinks you’re wrong in principal. It’s like saying, “I don’t think our math teachers should be teaching our students about morality!”

You’re only stating something that is stupendously obvious. The issue is that you see a problem where there is none.

 

[revert_jen]

I find this a little offensive, and very insensitive. My mother is a high school science teacher, and a very capable one. She and her colleagues do an extraordinary job introducing students to the natural word.

I’m sorry to have offended you, and probably your mother isn’t doing what some of my own science teachers have done. Not having met her, there isn’t any way for me to know.

I wasn’t trying to claim, in any case, that they weren’t teaching science, but that they weren’t teaching only science.

But the fact that you haven’t seen the problem doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, just like the fact that I have seen the problem doesn’t mean that it’s widespread.

However, if there is a widespread problem, the whole point is that the teachers who are teaching ideology along with the science would be the last people to even see the problem, much less would they be the ones to fix it.

–Jen

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I’ll provide an example which clearly shows mixing pure philosophy and biased anti-God conclusions into a science textbook.

…]
Discovering Life by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st ed., D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; (2nd ed… D.C. Heath and Co., 1994), p. 161; emphases in original.)"

And the average student will think what? That all that isn’t a fact? It’s in a textbook.

I think that shows that it has happened. In trying to get from “it has happened” to “it continues to happen in many places” are there other examples of this?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I think that shows that it has happened. In trying to get from “it has happened” to “it continues to happen in many places” are there other examples of this?

magisreasonfaith.org/free_dvd.html

Have you looked at that yet? Fr. Spitzer is a former President of Gonzaga University, he knows what he is talking about, that is the whole purpose of his site. And I have the witness of my own nephew. It is a fact that the Catholic bishops have found to be universally true. But certainly it is not the case in every class. But it is wide spread. That is why the Bishops encourage college bound students becomse active members of Newman Centers in their College or University where available.

And certainly some students are well enough trained and strong enough in their faith that it doesn’t cause a serious problem for them. For them it is a mere nusance but for many it becomes a threat to their faith. Linus2nd

 

[Razanir]

Mr. Dawkins is not agnostic. Just visit his web site.

Yes, he is.

So, without all the mental garbage in their heads, their kids can go into the world without the confusion that reigns right now in the world.

The way you are wording everything, it sounds like you are claiming people are learning to have premarital sex or use contraception or support gay marriage in their science classes. This is most certainly not the case. Most of that stuff comes from the mainstream media. Contraceptives, on the other hand, are taught about and somewhat promoted in health class, but mine at least (in a secular public school) also taught and promoted abstinence.

Do you have an actual copy of it? I’ve read many textbooks throughout high school and what I’ve had of college. Never have I seen emphases such as those. Or any books that promote atheism like that. All the textbooks I’ve seen seemed fairly neutral.

An extension of this comment:

I would dare to say every textbook I’ve seen has used emphasis to point out new vocabulary words. ONLY to point out new vocabulary words. Also, the only remark I’ve seen in any book that was even remotely (blatantly) anti-Catholic was in my Theory of Interest book last semester. It pointed out that the early church was against any form of interest, calling it usury.

 

[grannymh]

Original Sin is not genetic, it is a Spiritual Disorder.

My apology. This is a correction.
Original Sin is a contracted state. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice; yet, our human nature has not been totally corrupted.
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 404-405

As I think about it…

Students should first learn what is proper to science in the material/physical domain and what is not proper.

Also, one needs to teach students the difference between a particular conclusion in a scientific paper and an universal interpretation which cannot be proven with objective certitude.

It would be most helpful if students and adults learned the difference between improbable and impossible in regard to science.

Finally, knowing what is used, materials and methods, in the Scientific (Inductive) Method is essential.

 

[edwest2]

magisreasonfaith.org/free_dvd.html

Have you looked at that yet? Fr. Spitzer is a former President of Gonzaga University, he knows what he is talking about, that is the whole purpose of his site. And I have the witness of my own nephew. It is a fact that the Catholic bishops have found to be universally true. But certainly it is not the case in every class. But it is wide spread. That is why the Bishops encourage college bound students becomse active members of Newman Centers in their College or University where available.

And certainly some students are well enough trained and strong enough in their faith that it doesn’t cause a serious problem for them. For them it is a mere nusance but for many it becomes a threat to their faith. Linus2nd

Thank you, Linusthe2nd. It is clear that there would not be a need to act if the problem was not widespread.

Best,
Ed

 

[Razanir]

Thank you, Linusthe2nd. It is clear that there would not be a need to act if the problem was not widespread.

This, however, is a logical fallacy. You’re saying if A implies B and we know B, A must be true. That’s like saying “If it is raining, my lawn is wet. My lawn is wet, therefore it is raining.” In reality, though, C, D and E might also imply B. Your lawn might be wet because of a sprinkler, or a hose, or some guy dumping a water bottle onto it. If your lawn is wet, it could be because of any one of those things.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This, however, is a logical fallacy. You’re saying if A implies B and we know B, A must be true. That’s like saying “If it is raining, my lawn is wet. My lawn is wet, therefore it is raining.” In reality, though, C, D and E might also imply B. Your lawn might be wet because of a sprinkler, or a hose, or some guy dumping a water bottle onto it. If your lawn is wet, it could be because of any one of those things.

We aren’t studying logic here, we are confronting a fact of life as it touches the faith of our children. Why do you think the Bishops of the U.S. have supported the establishment of Newman Centers on secular campuses accross the U.S.? Linus2nd

 

[seakelp]

We aren’t studying logic here, we are confronting a fact of life as it touches the faith of our children. Why do you think the Bishops of the U.S. have supported the establishment of Newman Centers on secular campuses accross the U.S.? Linus2nd

For any number of reasons, of course. I fail to see how encouragement of Catholic fellowship translates into an indictment of scientific education at American universities.

 

[edwest2]

For any number of reasons, of course. I fail to see how encouragement of Catholic fellowship translates into an indictment of scientific education at American universities.

We’re not discussing Catholic fellowship, hanging out and having coffee and donuts. There is evidence that more than just science is being taught. That is the point of the OP. And he has made his case.

And I ask that everyone stop with the “indictment” and related emotional conclusions. The OP is not saying teaching science is bad but adding personal beliefs and philosophical conclusions that are not derived from the data certainly is bad.

Peace,
Ed

 

[seakelp]

We’re not discussing Catholic fellowship, hanging out and having coffee and donuts. There is evidence that more than just science is being taught. That is the point of the OP. And he has made his case.

And I ask that everyone stop with the “indictment” and related emotional conclusions. The OP is not saying teaching science is bad but adding personal beliefs and philosophical conclusions that are not derived from the data certainly is bad.

Peace,
Ed

If you think the case is closed, why continue to post in this thread? Some of us don’t believe that the OP has proven his point, and we’re having fun discussing it.

In any case, I didn’t mean anything negative by “indictment.” The Linusthe2d was implying that one of the reasons Newman Centers were created is to ensure that Catholic students aren’t drawn away from the faith by science. I think he was actually affirming your post, which said, “If we weren’t looking for a solution, then there wouldn’t be a problem.”

My post was stating that there are literally thousands of other reasons that Newman Centers are established, and have been encouraged.

 

[grannymh]

It is no secret that many young students ( and the innocent in the general public ) are loosing their faith because of indoctrination by intellectual " superiors " at High School, College, or University. Your child’s faith is being destroyed by the Pied Pipers of a pseudo science by which they try to convince your child God does not exist and all religion is worse than foolishness.

If you doubt my word just start reading almost any thread in the Philosophy forum and you will see the kind of nonsense that is leading your child and perhaps yourself astray.

How do you protect your child, how do you protect yourself against this aggresive lie ?

I would suggest you take a look at the Magis Center of Reason and Faith and see some of the resources that can help. magisreasonfaith.org/free_dvd.html

While it is true that this pseudo scinece/philosophy is pure nonsense, it cannot be ignored because the practioners are extremely clever. They deserve to be hooted out of town. And in a sane, rational society they would be. But today we no longer live in a sane, rational society. So prepare yourself. It is not necessary that you argue with these people because they are the most expert Sophists that ever existed. But it is necessary to understand the foolishness upon which they stand. That way you and your children can just ignore them and quitely lead a life of reason and faith.

Linus2nd

I believe that those who are concerned about students should check the link in post 1. magisreasonfaith.org/free_dvd.html

The Magis Center of Reason and Faith has an excellent reputation. There are many ways to help students. Links magisreasonfaith.org/about_spitzer.html
magisreasonfaith.org/ask_spitzer.html

 

[Razanir]

Do you have an actual copy of it? I’ve read many textbooks throughout high school and what I’ve had of college. Never have I seen emphases such as those. Or any books that promote atheism like that. All the textbooks I’ve seen seemed fairly neutral.

I still want to know. What do you think of evolution, the Big Bang, and while I’m at it, the Round Earth Model? The first two go against a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 (which you seem to support) and the last one was tested with the scientific method

I would dare to say every textbook I’ve seen has used emphasis to point out new vocabulary words. ONLY to point out new vocabulary words. Also, the only remark I’ve seen in any book that was even remotely (blatantly) anti-Catholic was in my Theory of Interest book last semester. It pointed out that the early church was against any form of interest, calling it usury.

Ed, I still want to know your responses to these comments.

We aren’t studying logic here, we are confronting a fact of life as it touches the faith of our children. Why do you think the Bishops of the U.S. have supported the establishment of Newman Centers on secular campuses accross the U.S.? Linus2nd

I’m not saying we are studying logic. I’m just pointing out that you can’t claim there is a problem because of one effect that could have any number of causes. As seakelp pointed out, the rise in the number of Newman Centers could also be because they want to promote fellowship. It does not necessarily mean it is to counteract this problem you think is so prevalent.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Ed, I still want to know your responses to these comments.

I’m not saying we are studying logic. I’m just pointing out that you can’t claim there is a problem because of one effect that could have any number of causes. As seakelp pointed out, the rise in the number of Newman Centers could also be because they want to promote fellowship. It does not necessarily mean it is to counteract this problem you think is so prevalent.

cardinalnewmansociety.org/HomePage/Aboutus.aspx More than fellowship.

You might also investigate the Cardianl Newman Society whose mission is to address the decline in authentic Catholic education in Catholic Colleges and Universities.

" …( Pope John Paul ll and Pope Benedict XVl ) had been Catholic educators, and both were inspired by the work of our patron, Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman. Blessed Newman was a lifelong advocate for education that teaches students to reason and discover truth. He came to realize that a genuine commitment to truth, including the Truth that is revealed by God, requires a strong Catholic foundation and adherence to the teachings of the Church.

Since the 1960s, Catholics have witnessed a creeping secularism in Catholic education that has often corrupted teachings and behaviors – both inside and outside the classroom – and replaced authentic Catholic identity with bland conformity to a declining culture. It is with this concern, but also with great hope in the Church’s vision for Catholic schools and colleges, that The Cardinal Newman Society was established in 1993 to promote and defend faithful Catholic education. "

Newman Centers in secular institutions are supported by the U.S. Bishops to accomplish the following:

Published on USCatholic.org (uscatholic.org)

Home > Empowered by the Spirit: The U.S. bishops on campus ministry

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Empowered by the Spirit: The U.S. bishops on campus ministry
By J.D. Long-García| Print | Share
Article Life
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a pastoral letter on campus ministry, pledging their support for the ongoing effort to enrich the faith in colleges and universities in 1985.
“Empowered by the Spirit: Campus Ministry Faces the Future” recognized campus ministry as “vitally important for the future of the church and society.”

While the bishops issued the pastoral 27 years ago, it remains an influential document for campus outreach efforts across the country. The Catholic Campus Ministry Association, which counts more than 60 percent of college and university centers, uses the pastoral as a centering document.

The bishops called for college faith communities be faithful to the teachings of the church while adapting “the message of the Gospel to meet the needs of the academic community.” “Empowered by the Spirit” outlines six aspects that reflect the mission of the church on campus:

1. Forming the faith community
2. Appropriating the faith
3. Forming the Christian conscience
4. Educating for justice
5. Facilitating personal development
6. Developing leaders for the future

“These aspects give common language to campus ministers, even if they carry out these aspects in very different styles,” says Dominican Father Nathan Castle, pastor and director of the Catholic Community at Stanford. “They’re really written in such a way that they’re above any kind of liberal or conservative divide.”

Campus ministry should encourage theological study and an understanding of the religious nature of human beings, according to the pastoral. In this way, students can grow spiritually, morally and intellectually. Properly prepared and baptized students can be signs and instruments “of the kingdom.”

Father Castles sees this as characteristic of the Vatican II church. Catholics are called to service by the Holy Spirit in their mission, not just by a priest or sister. “It is a sign of hope that a growing number of lay people serve as leaders in the faith community on campus,” the bishops wrote back in 1985.

“A contemporary Christian humanism will flourish, which will demonstrate to all the value of an adult faith that has integrated the best insights of the culture,” the bishops wrote in the closing lines of the pastoral. “The church on campus will be seen more clearly as a genuine servant community, dedicated to social justice, and therefore will be a more effective sign and instrument of the kingdom of peace and justice in the world.”

This article is a web-only sidebar that accompanies “New man on campus: A new approach to Catholic campus ministry. [1]”

.J.D. Long-García is the managing editor of the Catholic Sun, the newspaper of the Diocese of Phoenix, Arizona. See more posts by J.D. Long-García [2]

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Created: Monday, January 16 2012 5:00 AM .
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The Magis Center of Reason and Faith addresses a specific challenge which our youth encounter in many places but generally in the College or University setting both in classes and in social settings where they are confronted with " scientific " " theories " suggesting that the world can get along just fine without God.

All these entities address educational problems which can pose a danger to Catholic youth both in Catholic and Secular institutions. If it has not effected you personallly, congratulations but it has effected thousands upon thousands.

To view this problem with levity is most uncharitable and demonstrates a lack of maturity. Parents who have children returning from school, having lost their faith, will attest to the missery it causes in their heats. Linus2nd

 

[matt1985]

You can tell them to ask their professors if they believe in the alternative medicine movement. To me, the greatest hypocritical of secular people is that they attack religion, yet flock to alternative medicine gurus like Depak Choapra and Oprah Winfrey.

Other than that you can tell them that many scientists believe science is neutral on the existence of God, and scientists who use science to justify atheism are not being honest about the capabilities of science to begin with.

 

[Razanir]

Newman centers are not restricted to fellowship.

cardinalnewmansociety.org/HomePage/Aboutus.aspx

uscatholic.org/life/2012/01/empowered-spirit-us-bishops-campus-ministry

The Magis Center of Reason and Faith addresses a specific challenge which our youth encounter in many places but generally in the College or University setting both in classes and in social settings where they are confronted with " scientific " " theories " suggesting that the world can get along just fine without God.

All these entities address educational problems which can pose a danger to Catholic youth both in Catholic and Secular institutions. If it has not effected you personallly, congratulations but it has effected thousands upon thousands.

To view this problem with levity is most uncharitable and demonstrates a lack of maturity. Parents who have children returning from school, having lost their faith, will attest to the missery it causes in their heats. Linus2nd

1. Thanks for the wall of text… You do realize it’s against forum rules to copy and paste entire articles over, right?
2. affect is a verb, effect is a noun
3. You’re misunderstanding my argument. I’m not saying that all Newman Centers do is fellowship. I’m saying that fellowship is one reason bishops might be pushing them. It could also be if there actually is this widespread problem. It could also be if they want to promote evangelization. There are a number of possible reasons.
4. What do you think of all the scientific theories and advancements made by Catholics? Such as the Big Bang, genetics, pasteurization or even the heliocentric model of the universe.
5. What do you think of things that have been well tested and proved with the scientific method? Such as genetics or the Round Earth Model?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Ed, I still want to know your responses to these comments.

If you want to discuss anything but the topic of the thread, you may start your own thread. If you insist on doing otherwise I will ask the moderator to remove you from the thread.

Linus2nd

 

[Razanir]

If you want to discuss anything but the topic of the thread, you may start your own thread. If you insist on doing otherwise I will ask the moderator to remove you from the thread.

Linus2nd

It’s relevant to the discussion! I just want to know where he stands on some of these issues! It actually is important to know if he’s a theistic evolutionist who sees this problem as opposed to a Young-Earth Creationist or even a flat-Earther. If anyone deserves to be reported, it’s you for accusing me of not even being Christian just because I disagreed with your opinion and for quoting an entire article instead of providing a link

If you hadn’t noticed, one of those responses I’m waiting on is talking about a textbook. He posted an anti-theist excerpt from a textbook, I doubted that the emphases especially were from the book, and he has yet to respond. Please explain how that’s not on topic!

 

[edwest2]

It’s relevant to the discussion! I just want to know where he stands on some of these issues! It actually is important to know if he’s a theistic evolutionist who sees this problem as opposed to a Young-Earth Creationist or even a flat-Earther. If anyone deserves to be reported, it’s you for accusing me of not even being Christian just because I disagreed with your opinion and for quoting an entire article instead of providing a link

If you hadn’t noticed, one of those responses I’m waiting on is talking about a textbook. He posted an anti-theist excerpt from a textbook, I doubted that the emphases especially were from the book, and he has yet to respond. Please explain how that’s not on topic!

I have nothing to add. My being an ist has nothing to do with the discussion.

Ed