Protestansts, If God judges the quality of our imperfect faith for justificaion, then why cant this be true of works?

[Odell]

If you believe you can please God in the area of “sanctification” knowing your works are imperfect. Then why cant he accept both our faith and works for justification?

If our works are not good enough what makes you think our faith is?

So first you must answer what makes your faith “saving faith” qualify when its imperfect for your own justification?

And if God can view your faith as imperfect as it is; as pleasing for justification why cant he view our works the same way?

 

[meltzerboy]

If you believe you can please God in the area of “sanctification” knowing your works are imperfect. Then why cant he accept both our faith and works for justification?

If our works are not good enough what makes you think our faith is?

So first you must answer what makes your faith “saving faith” qualify when its imperfect for your own justification?

And if God can view your faith as imperfect as it is; as pleasing for justification why cant he view our works the same way?

I’ll yield to knowledgeable Protestants on the Forum; but I believe the idea that all or most Protestant denominations are sola fide may be incorrect. From what I’ve read here, Lutherans, for example, believe in both faith and works for sufficient justification. I don’t know, however, if this goes so far as to say, as in Catholicism, that faith without works is meaningless and that the two are intertwined. It’s a good question though, and I’m interested in hearing the responses.

 

[Odell]

Cool I would love to have your (name removed by moderator)ut

I may add to this

We know that no work of man could ever withstand the tribunal of God, if we mean by Gods perfect standards of righteousness. **But what most Protestants fail to see is that the same principle would have to be true of faith **

If God were to judge us by his perfect standards, our faith would never be acceptable to him. It is only when God looks at us through the eyes of grace that God can accept our faith. Oops I gave the answer away But cant our works be seen through the eyes of Gods grace as well?

You and I know that Paul addresses those Jews that wanted to obligate God by works. But that’s not to say that all Jews sought to obligated God. We know that God was pleased with many in the Old Testament. We know that Paul has no problem with the Law as a guide. Ill leave that for further discussion.

Anyway I don’t think any Protestant can logically answer this question, so it could get interesting. Hang around

 

[JonNC]

If you believe you can please God in the area of “sanctification” knowing your works are imperfect. Then why cant he accept both our faith and works for justification?

If our works are not good enough what makes you think our faith is?

So first you must answer what makes your faith “saving faith” qualify when its imperfect for your own justification?

And if God can view your faith as imperfect as it is; as pleasing for justification why cant he view our works the same way?

Limited time, so briefly;
Lutherans believe we are justified by grace alone through faith. That justification is, therefore, monergistic. The Holy SPirit works faith in us, and we ***receive ***faith, and therefore, justification.
Sanctification, OTOH, requires an obedience to God. We do good works, with the help of the Spirit, in response to grace and our justification. Even in these good works, however, is the evidence of our sinful nature. While good works are necessary, and a part of our saving faith (faith working through love), they do not merit us salvation. To an extent, Sanctification is synergistic.

Jon

 

[WCH]

Anyway I don’t think any Protestant can logically answer this question, so it could get interesting. Hang around****You fail to recognize, it’s not a logical problem but a theological one.

Therefore, it demands a scriptural answer, and not a logical one.

 

[Odell]

Give me scripture of why God can not view or works the same as he view or (name removed by moderator)erfect faith.

Jon in nc you didi not answer the question. I will reply more to your post sometime Tuesday.

 

[WCH]

Give me scripture of why God can not view or works the same as he view or (name removed by moderator)erfect faith.

That’s not really what you put forth in the OP now, is it?

 

[Odell]

That’s not really what you put forth in the OP now, is it?

If I showed verses that prove God CAN view our works as righteousness would you than atempt to answer my question? As of right now you still have failed to answer why God can not view our imperfect works threw the eyes of grace but can view our imperfect faith threw the lense of grace.

 

[guanophore]

You fail to recognize, it’s not a logical problem but a theological one.

Therefore, it demands a scriptural answer, and not a logical one.

You have created a false dichotomy.

Catholics do not separate theology from logic, WCH. Scripture is perfectly logical, having been inspired by the eternal Logos Himself.

As St. Anselm noted, our spiritual journey is one of faith seeking understanding.

You have stated in another thread that one reason you left the Catholic faith is “works righteousness”. Now you are on a thread about works and righteousness. Perhaps you can help us understand what your objections are to the Apsotolic faith?

 

[WCH]

You have created a false dichotomy.

Catholics do not separate theology from logic, WCH. Scripture is perfectly logical, having been inspired by the eternal Logos Himself.

As St. Anselm noted, our spiritual journey is one of faith seeking understanding.

You have stated in another thread that one reason you left the Catholic faith is “works righteousness”. Now you are on a thread about works and righteousness. Perhaps you can help us understand what your objections are to the Apsotolic faith?

The cause of all heresy in church history has been because men ignore the scripture in favor of logic.

 

[WCH]

If I showed verses that prove God CAN view our works as righteousness would you than atempt to answer my question?

Men are justified by grace, and not by works. There’s your answer, as I understand your question.

 

[guanophore]

That’s not really what you put forth in the OP now, is it?

I think you need to re-read the thread title, WCH.

 

[WCH]

I think you need to re-read the thread title, WCH.

See post 11

 

[guanophore]

Men are justified by grace, and not by works. There’s your answer, as I understand your question.

Indeed, but the same grace that saves us is the grace that produces those works of righteousness, so while they are not the basis of our salvation, neither are they separated from it. We are saved by grace, through faith. It is the quality of that faith that is paramount. Saving faith is faith that works. That is why we don’t say “faith alone”, because saving faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by the works of righteousness that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[WCH]

Indeed, but the same grace that saves us is the grace that produces those works of righteousness, so while they are not the basis of our salvation, neither are they separated from it. We are saved by grace, through faith. It is the quality of that faith that is paramount. Saving faith is faith that works. That is why we don’t say “faith alone”, because saving faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by the works of righteousness that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

That’s a very Protestant position.

 

[guanophore]

That’s a very Protestant position.

No, WCH, it is one of the Apostolic positions that not all the Protestants have jettisoned.

There is really no such thing as a “Protestant” position, since they range from one end of the map to the other. The only thing that all Protesants agree upon is that the Catholics are wrong.

I know some Protestants that believe once you pray the sinners prayer, you are eternally saved, and nothing you can do in this life will prevent you from going to heaven.

I know other Protestants that believe a person must bear the fruit that befits repentance (demonstrate they are born again by their actions). I think you are one of those.

There are some that think we have no part or obligation in our salvation - that God saves whoever He wants.

 

[WCH]

No, WCH, it is one of the Apostolic positions that not all the Protestants have jettisoned.

There is really no such thing as a “Protestant” position, since they range from one end of the map to the other. The only thing that all Protesants agree upon is that the Catholics are wrong.

I know some Protestants that believe once you pray the sinners prayer, you are eternally saved, and nothing you can do in this life will prevent you from going to heaven.

I know other Protestants that believe a person must bear the fruit that befits repentance (demonstrate they are born again by their actions). I think you are one of those.

There are some that think we have no part or obligation in our salvation - that God saves whoever He wants.

Non-sequiturs and red herrings.

 

[Odell]

Limited time, so briefly;
Lutherans believe we are justified by grace alone through faith. That justification is, therefore, monergistic. The Holy SPirit works faith in us, and we ***receive ***faith, and therefore, justification.

Catholics believe we are saved by grace alone as well. Faith, good works, holiness, and love are all gifts of Gods grace. Man cannot claim any legal right to any of Gods blessings or salvation

Sanctification, OTOH, requires an obedience to God. We do good works, with the help of the Spirit, in response to grace and our justification.

Faith requires obedience to God. And good works don’t necesarly flow from faith. And by your works you will be judged.

Even in these good works, however, is the evidence of our sinful nature. While good works are necessary, and a part of our saving faith (faith working through love), they do not merit us salvation. To an extent, Sanctification is synergistic.

Jon

Not in the sense of strict merit due to obligation but gracious merit yes provided by His bevelence.

Romans 2: 5-10 “of the rigteous judgment of God, who will give to each man according to his works. On the one hand, to those who persist in good works, seeking glory,honor and incorruption, [He will give] eternal life…”

Also you are qualifing faith and you can’t do that without falling into faith and works.

I started out that we can’t claim any right of God blessings from faith or works. So how is it that God can accept our faith as imperfect as it is but not our works.

This is the whole point to this thread and it has not been answered yet.

 

[Odell]

Men are justified by grace, and not by works. There’s your answer, as I understand your question.

Verses that teach pleasing God.
Heb 11: 5 “he was commended as one who pleased God.”
Prov 16:7, Rom 12:1-2, 2cor 5:9-10, many amny more.

But how can our works please God? Because God can view our works when we don’t seek toto obligate him. With the eyes of grace, the same ways he views our faith. (Point of this thread)

Heb 11:4 says of Abel that God preferred his sacrafice over cains and that OThe Lord (looked with grace) on Abel and his offering, but on cains he did not look with grace. God is pleased with Abel.

The issue is the specific way God perceives Abel.

Through his grace God can “look upon” our works as both pleasing to him and worthy of blessings, since this particular system does not demand absolute perfection nor put God in a position of obligation.

Noah found “grace in the eyes of God” (Gen 6:8-9) under the strict merits of the law moses would not be able to please God.

So why can’t God view our works as he views our faith? If God can accept faith by his grace and mercy, then he can also accept works in the same way.

 

[JonNC]

=Odell;7927770]Catholics believe we are saved by grace alone as well. Faith, good works, holiness, and love are all gifts of Gods grace. Man cannot claim any legal right to any of Gods blessings or salvation

Agreed.

Faith requires obedience to God. And good works don’t necesarly flow from faith. And by your works you will be judged.

They do necessarily from a saving faith, an active faith. We are justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone. If good works do not flow from faith, then, as Luther said, there is something amiss in faith.

Not in the sense of strict merit due to obligation but gracious merit yes provided by His bevelence.

Romans 2: 5-10 “of the rigteous judgment of God, who will give to each man according to his works. On the one hand, to those who persist in good works, seeking glory,honor and incorruption, [He will give] eternal life…”

Yes, this is clearly growth in grace.

Also you are qualifing faith and you can’t do that without falling into faith and works.

Of course I can qualify faith. Scripture does, and Lutherans always have. We are not talking about an intellectual assent here, but a real faith, a faith that works through love.

I started out that we can’t claim any right of God blessings from faith or works. So how is it that God can accept our faith as imperfect as it is but not our works.

This is a different question. He, of course, accepts the works of the justified, and they are imperfect. But in many ways, they are not for Him. They are for our fellowman (love your neighbor as yourself, and care for the least of My children).

This is the whole point to this thread and it has not been answered yet

So, maybe I don’t understand the question. Are you asking why we say that one is justified by grace through faith, and not by works, considering that both our faith and our works are imperfect?

Jon