Protestant Anti-Sacramentalism

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Just an observation, though I suppose a point could be made of that. If all Christians are priests, then what “sacraments” do all Christians have the ability to administer?
The sacraments of love, mercy, kindness, hope and compassion…those sacraments that truly make a difference in peoples lives…that truly impact them where they live…that makes life holy by Christ living through us sharing Incarnation with Him.
 
This is true; it is the priesthood of all believers. But right now we are talking about the clerical priesthood, or the presbytery.

By the way, the word “priest” is a contraction of the word “presbyter”.
Actually, that’s not true of the word Peter uses to describe all believers. He uses Hierateuma, the word used to describe Levitical/Aaronic Priests.
So, how do you reconcile that to John 20:23, Matt. 16, and James 5:14-15? It clearly states that the first bishops, and also the presbytery, were the norm in sacramental confession. The early Church Fathers also held this view, although it had not been established whether it was general or auricular confession.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to in James. It says nothing about confessing to a bishop, but to each other. The only time bishops are mentioned are in 14-15 regarding anointing. Confession is explicitly mentioned as “to one another.” I won’t contest that Jesus gave his Apostles the authority to forgive and withold it.
 
Just an observation, though I suppose a point could be made of that. If all Christians are priests, then what “sacraments” do all Christians have the ability to administer?
The “priesthood of all believers” is not the same as the ministerial priesthood.

The sacraments that all can administer are baptism (because of its necessity for salvation, although the priest is the *ordinary *minister of this sacrament) and marriage (because the bride and groom confer the sacrament upon each other via their consent).
 
The sacraments of love, mercy, kindness, hope and compassion…those sacraments that truly make a difference in peoples lives…that truly impact them where they live…that makes life holy by Christ living through us sharing Incarnation with Him.
These are not sacraments. They are virtues.
 
Actually, that’s not true of the word Peter uses to describe all believers. He uses Hierateuma, the word used to describe Levitical/Aaronic Priests.
Yes, this is true. We are not debating the Priesthood of All Believers here though, just the clerical presbytery and episcopate as they relate to Sacraments and a sacramental worldview and worship.

No Protestant has specifically answered my questions one at a time in the OP, though.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to in James. It says nothing about confessing to a bishop, but to each other.
I may have accidentally put the wrong reference. I meant to put the Scripture where it talks about the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, and the Presbytery and forgiveness of sins.
The only time bishops are mentioned are in 14-15 regarding anointing. Confession is explicitly mentioned as “to one another.” I won’t contest that Jesus gave his Apostles the authority to forgive and withold it.
And, via Apostolic Succession, the bishops also inherit this authority, since they were set in place by the Apostles as successors.

For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God “had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8).

Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, “‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

Christ told the apostles to follow his example: “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).

Truly, a priest doesn’t forgive sins, he pronounces forgiveness given by Christ.
 
I don’t know why you feel you have to demand Catholics to speak up. The assertion made that Protestants are worshiping a different Christ is so ludicrous that it barely merits any response at all. Of course Protestants and Catholics follow the same Christ. The understanding of the bare-bones basics of Christ’s life and work are common to all Christians, regardless of differences of interpretation of the finer details.
👍

Thanks,
Jon
 
Yes, this is true. We are not debating the Priesthood of All Believers here though, just the clerical presbytery and episcopate as they relate to Sacraments and a sacramental worldview and worship.

No Protestant has specifically answered my questions one at a time in the OP, though.
Since I don’t really fall into the category you’re describing (a Protestant who rejects all sacaraments), I’m afraid I can’t answer the questions. 🙂
I may have accidentally put the wrong reference. I meant to put the Scripture where it talks about the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, and the Presbytery and forgiveness of sins.
That passage does discuss those things, but in regard to confession, it specifically says to confess to one another.
And, via Apostolic Succession, the bishops also inherit this authority, since they were set in place by the Apostles as successors.
For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God “had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8).
Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.
God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, “‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)
Christ told the apostles to follow his example: “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).
Truly, a priest doesn’t forgive sins, he pronounces forgiveness given by Christ.
I’m still wrestling with the rest of this.
 
These are not sacraments. They are virtues.
I have no problem with those who engage in outward signs as sacraments…they point to a Reality but they are not the Reality…until the “sacraments” become “incarnated” into our lives to where we become the literal Body of Christ, bearing His divintiy, sharing His very Soul to this world, they are “empty forms and ceremonies” that do not lessen the suffering and separateness we have with one another.

Protestants along with Catholic/Orthodox have within their theologies deep and rich wells to draw from…but we spend so much time 'my way is right" …“I follow Christ better than you…”…“I belong to the “right” group…” the person outside our Meeting House doors stay hungry, alone, thirsty and without the Hope we claim to have in our ceremonies…I doubt seriously the needy and hurting in our world are asmoved by a communion wafer and sip of wine as they would a loaf of bread and a jug of milk.

I am not from a liturgical tradition so my imagery is grounded in the flesh and blood bodies of this world…not the ethereal other worldliness of sacraments that are confected at the hands of others on my behalf for some future gain in a heavenly realm…I want a faith rooted and grounded here in this world…the world that God entered in incarnation and lives among us still.
 
I had a good First Day…the whole image of sacrament and incarnation was touched upon…so forgive me if I get carried away…it’s a Quaker thing.🙂
 
Who cares what Protestants think? These are the people who have rejected Christ’s full message and selected a few things that suit them to believe. They have rejected his holy Church as well.
How dare you say such things. The original dissenters from the “Reformation” were heretics, but these people are mostly sincere and don’t know that they have only half of Christian teaching, and are ships without rudders, as they do not have the Magisterium.
The Christ Protestants believe in is not the same Christ that Catholics believe in. Apparently their Christ did, said and meant completely different things. And that would make him anti-christ (one of many).
This is utterly absurd. The Catholic Church does not teach this.
You can’t go on concerning yourself with beliefs of others. Muslims say that Christ was not God, nor died on the cross, and of course not resurrected at all. So what.
All you can do is share your faith for those who search…
You shouldn’t compare Protestants to Muslims. Big difference.
 
I don’t know why you feel you have to demand Catholics to speak up. The assertion made that Protestants are worshiping a different Christ is so ludicrous that it barely merits any response at all. Of course Protestants and Catholics follow the same Christ. The understanding of the bare-bones basics of Christ’s life and work are common to all Christians, regardless of differences of interpretation of the finer details.
I don’t think this is a ludicrous idea. We all know there was one Christ, but we both have different handle on him. For 1500 years we all believed more or less the same things about him, until some decided to split the body of Christ, and believe something else.

Do all monotheistic religions believe in the same God? You might think we do, but it is wrong actually.

The God that emerges in each case has quite different character and person. What one God does is quite out of character for the other.

But in particular, some protestants claim that Catholics are worshiping idols, worshiping a cookie God, that Pope is the anit-Christ etc. So, apparently they do not believe in the same God.

Our Christ said that we should eat his body and drink his blood, protestant Christ said he only meant it symbolically and only eat bread and drink wine occasionally in memory of him.

Our Christ founded the Church on Peter the Rock and that gates of hell shall not prevail against it, their Christ said we are all high priests and that we can start a church in our basement when ever we feel like.

Are we talking about the same Christ here? I don’t think so.

If you want to see what some Protestants think of Catholicism look here

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholicism_is_of_the_devil.htm

Lots of reference. So yeah. I don’t think we believe in the same Christ.
 
I don’t know why you feel you have to demand Catholics to speak up. The assertion made that Protestants are worshiping a different Christ is so ludicrous that it barely merits any response at all. Of course Protestants and Catholics follow the same Christ. The understanding of the bare-bones basics of Christ’s life and work are common to all Christians, regardless of differences of interpretation of the finer details.
It wasn’t a “demand”, you read too much into some of my posts Friend.
 
If you want to see what some Protestants think of Catholicism look here

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholicism_is_of_the_devil.htm
Mario,
First, CAF does not like the posting of links to websites like that one. I know you are new here, but a word to the wise…

Secondly, since you’ve been to that site, I assume you’ve also seen what that guy says about Lutherans. In case you didn’t, his hatred is not limited to Catholics.

Finally,
I would contend that you and I share much more in our belief than we differ on. One area where we do differ, however, is that I disagree with you that we do not believe in the same Christ. Unless, of course, you believe in a different Christ than Catholics and Lutherans.

Jon

PS - if you want the link to his Lutheran-bashing, let me know and I’ll PM it to you. I’ll not put it in a post.
 
I don’t think this is a ludicrous idea. We all know there was one Christ, but we both have different handle on him. For 1500 years we all believed more or less the same things about him, until some decided to split the body of Christ, and believe something else.
Yes, I know all that.
Do all monotheistic religions believe in the same God? You might think we do, but it is wrong actually.
No, I do not think that. Far from it. Stick around on this board long enough and you will see that I can be obnoxiously outspoken about which groups are Christian and which are not. But when you use the term “Protestant” I assume you are referring to the big mainline denominations and their immediate offshoots. I see absolutely no reason to think these these groups are not worshiping the same Christ. That does not mean I endorse their theologies or that I think they aren’t in error. However, that is a very different thing thing than believing they’re worshiping a different god.
I don’t think we believe in the same Christ.
You know, in the case of these very extreme, fringe-y fundamentalist cases (like the one website you link to) your point is a little stronger, but I still wouldn’t go so far as to agree with you. As long as they follow the basics of Christian belief, they’re Christian - no matter how warped their thinking gets. They need our prayers. They are not worshiping a different Christ; but they are separated from His body and are they adrift from His teachings. They put their faith in interpretations of men who are ignorant and / or outright dishonest. They’re damaged Christians.
 
As long as they follow the basics of Christian belief, they’re Christian - no matter how warped their thinking gets. They are not worshiping a different Christ; but they are separated from His body and are they adrift from His teachings. They put their faith in interpretations of men who are ignorant and / or outright dishonest. They’re damaged Christians.
Thanks… I think. :hmmm: 🙂
They need our prayers.
Without a doubt, thanks. 🙂

Jon
 
Catholicism (Including Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism and Orthodoxy)
What’s that?

Catholicism can be Roman, Greek, Coptic, etc. Pope is in charge in all those Churches but Anglicanism is a separate religion and has nothing to do with Catholicism. Also Orthodox Churches are independent and don’t recognize the pope as their leader.
 
What’s that?

Catholicism can be Roman, Greek, Coptic, etc. Pope is in charge in all those Churches but Anglicanism is a separate religion and has nothing to do with Catholicism. Also Orthodox Churches are independent and don’t recognize the pope as their leader.
I consider all Churches with valid Apostolic Succession and that recognize the seven Sacraments as “Catholic”. This includes Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Jacobite Christianity, so-called Nestiorian Christianity, and Traditional Anglicanism.
 
I don’t think this is a ludicrous idea. We all know there was one Christ, but we both have different handle on him. For 1500 years we all believed more or less the same things about him, until some decided to split the body of Christ, and believe something else.

Do all monotheistic religions believe in the same God? You might think we do, but it is wrong actually.

The God that emerges in each case has quite different character and person. What one God does is quite out of character for the other.

But in particular, some protestants claim that Catholics are worshiping idols, worshiping a cookie God, that Pope is the anit-Christ etc. So, apparently they do not believe in the same God.

Our Christ said that we should eat his body and drink his blood, protestant Christ said he only meant it symbolically and only eat bread and drink wine occasionally in memory of him.

Our Christ founded the Church on Peter the Rock and that gates of hell shall not prevail against it, their Christ said we are all high priests and that we can start a church in our basement when ever we feel like.

Are we talking about the same Christ here? I don’t think so.

If you want to see what some Protestants think of Catholicism look here

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholicism_is_of_the_devil.htm

Lots of reference. So yeah. I don’t think we believe in the same Christ.
And here’s what this “anti-Catholic” link says about Protestants:
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/protestantism.htm

They don’t like us very much either.

What’s the point of posting something from the fringe like this?
 
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