Protestant Anti-Sacramentalism

[JonNC]

And here’s what this “anti-Catholic” link says about Protestants:
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/protestantism.htm

They don’t like us very much either.

What’s the point of posting something from the fringe like this?

I cringe everytime someone posts this guy’s link. He probably checks his hit-counter every hour to see how many people have read his poison.

Not mad at you, k, just at the thought of people visiting his site.
Jon

 

[Matariel]

I cringe everytime someone posts this guy’s link. He probably checks his hit-counter every hour to see how many people have read his poison.

Not mad at you, k, just at the thought of people visiting his site.
Jon

Yeah, I hate all the distortions and self-righteousness, just like those evil Westboro Baptist Cultists.

 

[emeraldcoast]

As long as they follow the basics of Christian belief, they’re Christian - no matter how warped their thinking gets. They need our prayers. They are not worshiping a different Christ; but they are separated from His body and are they adrift from His teachings. They put their faith in interpretations of men who are ignorant and / or outright dishonest. They’re damaged Christians.

This place always surprises me when such charity is thrown in the direction of us damaged Christians…

I feel like singing …
youtube.com/watch?v=R6xIdDYiA9A&feature=related
Don’t be shy…join in…

youtube.com/watch?v=aOQX-ywipz0&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=-ZcEUXWr300&feature=related

and, finally, the all time classic

youtube.com/watch?v=pvNYAtDzVkc&feature=related

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
May the peace of the Lord be with you all!

 

[ibkc]

This place always surprises me when such charity is thrown in the direction of us damaged Christians…

I’m delighted that you have a sense of humor, but unfortunately your reading comprehension is, uh, rusty, perhaps. Please go back and re-read. I was specifically talking about the kind of Christian who would post such a website as was referenced above. I was absolutely not referring to mainline Protestants. My intention was to defend Protestants against the charge that they are worshiping a different god.

 

[emeraldcoast]

I’m delighted that you have a sense of humor, but unfortunately your reading comprehension is, uh, rusty, perhaps. Please go back and re-read. I was specifically talking about the kind of Christian who would post such a website as was referenced above. I was absolutely not referring to mainline Protestants. My intention was to defend Protestants against the charge that they are worshiping a different god.

ibkc, have you been following the post on this forum concerning my church and how some speak of it on this forum? Call me sensitive to statements like yours

“As long as they follow the basics of Christian belief, they’re Christian - no matter how warped their thinking gets. They put their faith in interpretations of men who are ignorant and / or outright dishonest. They’re damaged Christians.”

Peace!

This little light of mine…I gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine

 

[ibkc]

ibkc, have you been following the post on this forum concerning my church and how some speak of it on this forum?

No, sorry.

Call me sensitive to statements like yours

We all have our sore spots and sensitivities, but really - I was not talking about Episcopalians (I used to be one), Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians or any mainstream Protestant. Just the fringe extremists who revel in hatred day in and day out.

 

[mario_grgic]

As long as they follow the basics of Christian belief, they’re Christian - no matter how warped their thinking gets. They need our prayers. They are not worshiping a different Christ; but they are separated from His body and are they adrift from His teachings. They put their faith in interpretations of men who are ignorant and / or outright dishonest. They’re damaged Christians.

At one point Catholic church was teaching that there is no salvation outside it. Has that changed? And if so, why belong to a church at all? Then just believe some subset of Christ’s teaching or even some sort of distorted personal interpretation of his teaching.

I don’t think these things are so loose. Perhaps any follower of Christ could linguistically be called Christian, but anyone who rejects a visible institution on this Earth founded by God himself is kidding themselves.

 

[emeraldcoast]

No, sorry.

We all have our sore spots and sensitivities, but really - I was not talking about Episcopalians (I used to be one), Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians or any mainstream Protestant. Just the fringe extremists who revel in hatred day in and day out.

God Bless, ibkc!

 

[Matariel]

At one point Catholic church was teaching that there is no salvation outside it…

Yes, but, as the Church has already stated, you can become mystically united to the Church without even knowing it, i.e., by virtue of Baptism, by virtue of Baptism of Desire, by invincible ignorance, etc… people are only judged by what they know.

A lot of Protestants are so ignorant of ecclesiastical history that they fail to see that the Catholic Church is God’s Church on Earth.

 

[myredeemerlives]

By saying you can be saved outside of the Church, you agree with us so called protestants that God’s grace isn’t distributed through the sacraments or the priest.

I believe that the Catholic church is now taking this stand (which I’m sure would have disgusted earlier Catholic churches) by saying there is salvation outside of the Church just to entice people to become Catholics. To try and reach into other denominations and get us all to convert.

I don’t buy it. If you are going to say that God’s grace comes through the sacraments then at least be big enough to admit there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Because lets face it, you believe that the Eucharist is what cleanses you from sin… if you don’t take the Eucharist, how can you be cleansed from sin?

I guess us protestants are right after all… God’s grace is a free gift and you are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[ibkc]

By saying you can be saved outside of the Church, you agree with us so called protestants that God’s grace isn’t distributed through the sacraments or the priest.

No one is saying any such thing. The teaching is that through invincible ignorance, non-Catholics may be able to make it into Heaven, and that it is not our place to judge the state of any individual’s soul.A special case is the application of vincible and invincible ignorance to salvation. Failure to embrace the Christian faith (infidelity), total repudiation of the Christian faith (apostasy), and the post-baptismal obstinate denial or willful doubt of particular teachings of the Catholic faith (heresy) are objectively grave sins against the virtue of faith. Like any other grave sins, if they are committed with adequate knowledge and deliberate consent, they become mortal sins and will deprive one of salvation.

Also like any other grave sins, their imputability can be removed, diminished, unaffected, or increased by the varying types of ignorance. Invincible ignorance removes culpability for the sins against faith, merely vincible ignorance diminishes culpability (sometimes to the point of being venial), crass or supine ignorance will affect culpability for them little or not at all, and hard hearted, affected ignorance will increase culpability for them.

For those who have had their culpability for sins against faith removed or diminished to the point of veniality, they are not moral sins and thus will not of themselves deprive one of heaven. A person who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and his Church through no fault of his own (or, by extension, through his merely venial fault) can be saved-if he otherwise does what is required for salvation, according to the level of opportunity, enlightenment, and grace God gives him (CCC 847, 1260).

More at catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp

Because lets face it, you believe that the Eucharist is what cleanses you from sin… if you don’t take the Eucharist, how can you be cleansed from sin?

That isn’t how it works. Baptism cleanses us from original sin. The sacrament of reconciliation is the means by which we are forgiven for our mortal sins after baptism. The Eucharist is not a means of eradicating mortal sin - it’s more like spiritual food, a medicine (for lack of a better term) to heal the accretion of the day-to-day venial sins we all commit, and a kind of inoculation to help fend off temptation to mortal sin. It is much more than that, too.

 

[Matariel]

By saying you can be saved outside of the Church, you agree with us so called protestants that God’s grace isn’t distributed through the sacraments or the priest.

If you read what I said, I never said that. Technically there is no salvation outside the Church. But then again, all validly baptized (Sacrament) Christians are mystically part of the Catholic Church.

I believe that the Catholic church is now taking this stand (which I’m sure would have disgusted earlier Catholic churches)

There are no “earlier Catholic Churches” just the Roman Catholic Church. The Church has not changed it’s position, only clarified it.

by saying there is salvation outside of the Church just to entice people to become Catholics. To try and reach into other denominations and get us all to convert.

Actually, wouldn’t that just make them more comfortable where they are, not make them convert?

I don’t buy it. If you are going to say that God’s grace comes through the sacraments then at least be big enough to admit there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Like I said, literally, technically, there is no salvation outside the Church.

Because lets face it, you believe that the Eucharist is what cleanses you from sin… if you don’t take the Eucharist, how can you be cleansed from sin?

Actually, Original sin is expiated in Baptism ( As Paul says, “Baptism… now saves you.” ) and mortal and venial sin are absolved in sacramental confession ( Where Jesus says, "Whosoever sins you remit, they are remitted of them, and whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.)

I guess us protestants are right after all… God’s grace is a free gift and you are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

That sounds so Catholic!

 

[jay29]

Sacraments require priesthood.

The priesthood is your answer-- it’s not anti-sacramentalism, it’s anti-clericalism. That is the heart of the Reformation.

http://itleaders.com.au/images/bullseye.jpg

 

[mario_grgic]

I consider all Churches with valid Apostolic Succession and that recognize the seven Sacraments as “Catholic”. This includes Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Jacobite Christianity, so-called Nestiorian Christianity, and Traditional Anglicanism.

Well, that’s quite a distorted definition of Catholic. If you want to know what Catholic means, ask THE catholic church.

Simple definition would be all those who use and accept the catechism of the catholic church .

Any church that has women bishops and gay priests can not be Catholic. Any church that rejects Eucharist is not Catholic. Any church that is not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church (aka The Catholic Church) is not Catholic and this is the most narrow meaning of Catholic.

 

[Matariel]

Well, that’s quite a distorted definition of Catholic. If you want to know what Catholic means, ask THE catholic church.

True, the Roman Church has the best claim of holding complete Catholicity, but… maybe that’s why I’m thinking of becoming a Roman Christian.

Simple definition would be all those who use and accept the catechism of the catholic church .

I do accept the catechism of the Roman Church (even though still technically an Anglican). I haven’t found anything I disagree with therein.

Any church that has women bishops and gay priests can not be Catholic.

I agree, notice I said Traditional Anglicans (Including Continuing Anglicans.)

Any church that rejects Eucharist is not Catholic.

The Eucharist is a staple of Traditional Anglican belief.

Any church that is not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church (aka The Catholic Church) is not Catholic and this is the most narrow meaning of Catholic.

Attachment to the Successor of St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ on Earth… I do believe that. I’m an Anglo-Papist.

 

[mario_grgic]

Attachment to the Successor of St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ on Earth… I do believe that. I’m an Anglo-Papist.

Well, my point when I said that a church can’t be Catholic unless it is in communion with Roman Catholic Church was that Nestorian Churches (which you list as example of Catholic churches) are in fact heretical (excluding Chaldaean Catholics who are in communion with Rome but retain Nestorian rites). Nestorianism was condemned as a heresy by the council in Ephesus in 431. Please see

newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm

Also, I would like to point out that being Catholic is not something a person or institution can claim by their own. You can feel catholic, but you are not catholic unless the catholic community recognizes you as such. This is very akin to citizenship. You may move to a country and feel like you belong, but until you are granted citizenship you are not a citizen.

 

[Peter_J]

By saying you can be saved outside of the Church, you agree with us so called protestants that God’s grace isn’t distributed through the sacraments or the priest.

I believe that non-Catholic Christians, even Protestants, have the sacrament of baptism; so I don’t see why this would be an issue.

In any case, I would say that God’s grace isn’t distributed exclusively through the sacraments or the priest.

I guess us protestants are right after all… God’s grace is a free gift and you are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

Have a problem with that, I do not.

 

[Namesake]

While I can’t speak for all Protestants, as a Friend we believe life itself is sacramental…the incarnation showed us that human life itself can become holy when infused with the Holy Spirit and God enteres our humanity.

In Christ He and He alone is the One who works within us…each act of kindness takes on sacramental meaning, every person wears the face of Christ as we become avenues of grace in our world.

Most Protestants do not “reject” sacramental understanding…but expand it significantly. No one can mediate grace to us but Christ…so no sacrificail priesthood is required…no one can act or perform a ritual on our behalf. The old sacrificial priesthood under the old covenant has been fulfilled in Christ. He split the veil between the holy of holies and opened the Way for each of us to enter into the Holy of Holies individually and corporately by making each of us priests and kings to approach Him without an immediary…God is now our Abba, Father, “Daddy”, the term underscores a new relationship of Parent and child as we partake of the divine nature and are adopted by Him as beloved children…children that do not require someone to act on their behalf that has been ritually prepared to do so…In Christ we have been “ritually cleansed” to apprach God with boldness of a beloved child to Loving Parent.

Each meal and act of kindness has sacramental meaning. Each kind word spoken in Love “confects” the sacrament of Life. Each time we move our hands to heal and help the Ritual Sign of our redemption is seen as we minister to one another as a Holy Nation, a Royal Priesthood of Believers.

No ritual or rite performed on our behalf can bring us into relationship with the Father…simply a sincere repentant heart and receiving His astounding grace and mercy as shown by Christ who imparts it to us without ritual or rite freely as we walk in newness of life as a New Creation…we live in escatological immediacy of a Present Christ who indwells us and lives among us…our Immanuel…God with Us.

That is impressive. I am from Quaker ancestors and I need to do some reading I reckon. Your reply was just great, especially the idea that there is a more sophisticated form of worship.

 

[Peter_J]

While I can’t speak for all Protestants, as a Friend we believe life itself is sacramental…the incarnation showed us that human life itself can become holy when infused with the Holy Spirit and God enteres our humanity.

In Christ He and He alone is the One who works within us…each act of kindness takes on sacramental meaning, every person wears the face of Christ as we become avenues of grace in our world.

I don’t think we Catholics disagree with that sacramental understanding. Rather we would add to it that besides seeing life as sacramental in general, we also see seven specifics sacraments given to us by Christ.

 

[Matariel]

I don’t think we Catholics disagree with that sacramental understanding. Rather we would add to it that besides seeing life as sacramental in general, we also see seven specifics sacraments given to us by Christ.

Right on. There are billions of Sacraments. A life of grace is a Sacrament. Mankind is a Sacrament.

But the Church focuses mainly on the Seven Sacraments.