Protestant Argument of the Eucharist

[ThomasMore1535]

Kitty Chan:

I am really spiritually bothered by God children arguing about details. Because then we are focusing on details and not Him.

Yes, we are focusing on Him, because there is something called Absolute Truth. Jesus did not teach many doctrines on the Eucharist, only one doctrine. Only one can be right. He is “The Way, the Truth and the Life.” You are creating a false dichotemy between details and Him. We are focusing on Him when we talk about what the Eucharist actually means. It’s much better if you (as you have been) actually respond to the arguments rather than complain about “arguing about the details.” That’s something that the liberals do, and we, as God’s children, should not imitate them in that manner.

 

[Doreen]

beachieca:

Anyway, I’d be very interested to see what a non-denominational Christian would have to say I’m only trying to figure it all out.
Thank you and God Bless

I can tell you that I have questioned this teaching of the church as well, and now, as a “non-demoninational Christian,” I will tell you what I have to say about the Eucharist.

If you consider ALL the teachings of Christ, and the inspired Word of God in the Epistles, as well as consider the Old Testament teachings…you will be able to clearly understand that the LORD God gave “manna” as a gift to the Isrealites in the desert. This word “manna” actually means “which-a-ma callit” or “Whatever” – The Israelites called it “bread from Heaven” but it was unique in that it fully satisfied their appetites (for a time). In other words,
The LORD PROVIDED FOR THEM WHATEVER IT WAS THEY NEEDED. He gave them full satisfaction in the bread from heaven.

Search the Scriptures to learn more about how the manna in the desert is a picture of how Christ is the bread from heaven for those of us in the desert, escaping the bondage of slavery…
See: Exodus 16:31, Deuteronomy 8:16, John 6:49 and Rev. 2:17

In the same way, Christ says, “I am the BREAD of Life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.” John 6:35 Prior to this, Jesus said in John 6:32-33 “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

When the disciples question this “hard teaching” Jesus says to them: John 6:63 “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”

In John 7:37-39 Jesus stands at the Feast and says: “If a man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.” (39) By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

Now, here’s a point you might consider: Some argue about whether some of the things Jesus says are figurative or not. Some argue that protestants miss the point because they think Jesus speaks of the bread and wine as symbols of his flesh and blood and not as literally his flesh and blood.

Here is how I (a non-denominational Christian) understand this:
Jesus often spoke figuratively (Hello! He spoke in parables MOST of the time!) Why does some of what he says seem like it is in code: Well, he says in John 8:47 “He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

I didn’t understand/hear a lot of the Bible when I was a practicing Catholic…why not? I found that I did not understand because I did not ask the Lord Jesus to fill me with His Spirit…for the Word of God is “Spiritually discerned”…until I was able to say, “Lord, Jesus…fall on me, change me, for I never want to be the same again!” And until I truly submitted to Him as Lord, Savior and King, I simply was not HIS! So I was in fact … lost. Baptized as a babe or not, I was lost and dead in my sin.

A few years ago, I was praying and reading the Bible, when I came across this question about communion, and as I was reading the Gospels’ depictions of the Lord’s Supper, I realized a few things…but what stuck me most is the way it is told in Luke.
Jesus gives them all the “heads up” that this is a special meal they will share, since he will be taken soon and crucified. Then he says in verse 19…And he took the bread, gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

Two things hit me as I prayed to understand the teaching here:
ONE: The bread should bring praise (give thanks) --imagine if every time we ate or drank ANYTHING, we stopped and praised God. Is this not a powerful teaching? I believe Jesus wants to be remembered by us each time we eat and drink. Is this not why we fast? So that our minds will be given direction. If we continually satisfy ourselves with food and drink, we will not feel the need for Christ. So, the message I got was that I must STOP and give thanks with every food and every drink.

SECOND: The bread had to be broken. Jesus was showing us that His body has to be broken for it to be given up for us.

And THIRD the idea that the “cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” means that we live under the new covenant. We no longer have to follow the rules of the Old Testament (that is, the acts of offering animal sacrifices, etc.)

We are under grace…and Jesus’ blood has covered us.

In His Mighty Grip!
D. Gibbs

 

[mercygate]

Kitty Chan:

So a alcoholic can never take the wine only host. Does that not limit them and keep them out of communion with God? Sure no one may look at them bad but if it was me human nature would tell me Im more worthless because I cant be closer to God.

Jesus is fully present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the smallest particle or drop of either species. “More” or receiving under both kinds does not give you “more Jesus.” Many people receive under only one species. The parish where I attend Mass daily distributes only the host to the congregation – although it is canonically required that the priest consecrate both bread and wine and receive both. There is also an exemption where a special non-alcoholic “wine” called “mustum” may be used if a priest has an alcohol problem. This requires a dispensation from the bishop.

Passover meal is for jewish observances is it not keeping all the food groups separate?

I’m sorry; I do not understand this question.

So your telling me that it has to be actual wine and grape juice is not acceptable? how do we know we are using the correct wine do we have the same vintage Christ used?

That is correct: wine only. Yes: we do have “the same vintage Christ used” – the wine must be like kosher wine – of that alcoholic content and with no admixture of anything other than the fermented grape.

Jesus told parables, using examples of things, people around Him to explain the Kingdom of God. Sure He used the wine & bread, He said eat and remember me, not heres the receipe to use so you can eat, drink and remember.

Catholics relate the real presence to several scriptural texts, particularly John 6 and the last supper. 'Nother thread.

So some churches Ive been to do communion, Lords Supper whatever you wanna call it the first sunday of the month. I do not think theres a reason Im aware of just wondering if that would be looked down on?

Actually, Catholics would not have any opinion at all about the frequency with which non-Catholics celebrate the Lord’s Supper. Since we do not believe those churches have what Christ intended when he instituted the Sacrament, we would not presume to tell them how often they should do it.

Confession is a whole other world to me sometimes its more hourly on bad days but generally its nightly with prayers. But Catholics go to the booth and talk to priests, so do you confess only then or through the week in prayers as well??

Yup. Some people examine their consciences twice daily. Most people do it with a time of set prayer each day.

Im not sure that there is a arguement or that there is a percieved arguement, trying to understand thats all. Bottom line is Why Im wondering is; I am really spiritually bothered by God children arguing about details.** Because then we are focusing on details and not Him**.

We don’t think of these things as details. We strive with all the love in our hearts to do what he has commanded us to do. Haven’t you ever heard the old adage: God is in the details?

 

[Doreen]

To continue…
Just a few more thoughts on the subject of the Eucharist and of the difference between literal and figurative understandings of the body and blood (bread and wine)…

I love the picture someone painted once. It was of Jesus on the cross His head bowed down, and blood dripping from the crown of thorns on His head. Where must we stand if we are to be covered by His blood? Imagine it. Do you stand at the feet of Jesus?

The number one thing that gives me assurance that my current faith is what brings freedom in Christ is the fact that I do now know that I hear the Shepherds voice, and that I know Him and He knows me. My prayers are answered, and He directly answers the cry of my heart each time I seek Him in His Word. Not only that, but I do not fall to temptation as I did when I was trusting my acts of “sacrifice” in the Catholic church. I feel it is a terrible shame that the Catholic church does not understand and teach the Grace of God.

One recent post made this SO very clear when he said he could not wait a year to make an annual act of confession! He was saying, he believes (because the church teaches) that he will die in his sin if he doesn’t get to the priest in time to confess his recent sin! How sad!

The TRUTH says that when you put your religious duties in front of the finished work of the Cross…you sacrifice Christ all over again! How shameful!

I’m not saying you should continue in sin (READ ROMANS 7) but that once under Grace, and once you have the Holy Spirit in you, because you confessed and repented to God, you will not fall again and again. You are a new creation…and because of your devotion to your Lord, you won’t grieve Him by returning to sin, and you’ll be given the power of the Spirit to keep you from sinning, and if you should fall, you simply must turn and truly repent and He will forgive you. (READ Romans for Paul’s inspired explanation of Grace.)

I pray, dear Catholic friends, that you would know Him, too…and that you would be freed of the guilt and shame of the cycle of sin. The Christian life is meant to be a joyful one. If you have not joy, you have not Christ. Seek the truth and the truth will set you free.

 

[mercygate]

Doreen:

To continue…
Just a few more thoughts on the subject of the Eucharist and of the difference between literal and figurative understandings of the body and blood (bread and wine)…

I love the picture someone painted once. It was of Jesus on the cross His head bowed down, and blood dripping from the crown of thorns on His head. Where must we stand if we are to be covered by His blood? Imagine it. Do you stand at the feet of Jesus?

The number one thing that gives me assurance that my current faith is what brings freedom in Christ is the fact that I do now know that I hear the Shepherds voice, and that I know Him and He knows me. My prayers are answered, and He directly answers the cry of my heart each time I seek Him in His Word. Not only that, but I do not fall to temptation as I did when I was trusting my acts of “sacrifice” in the Catholic church. I feel it is a terrible shame that the Catholic church does not understand and teach the Grace of God.

One recent post made this SO very clear when he said he could not wait a year to make an annual act of confession! He was saying, he believes (because the church teaches) that he will die in his sin if he doesn’t get to the priest in time to confess his recent sin! How sad!

The TRUTH says that when you put your religious duties in front of the finished work of the Cross…you sacrifice Christ all over again! How shameful!

I’m not saying you should continue in sin (READ ROMANS 7) but that once under Grace, and once you have the Holy Spirit in you, because you confessed and repented to God, you will not fall again and again. You are a new creation…and because of your devotion to your Lord, you won’t grieve Him by returning to sin, and you’ll be given the power of the Spirit to keep you from sinning, and if you should fall, you simply must turn and truly repent and He will forgive you. (READ Romans for Paul’s inspired explanation of Grace.)

I pray, dear Catholic friends, that you would know Him, too…and that you would be freed of the guilt and shame of the cycle of sin. The Christian life is meant to be a joyful one. If you have not joy, you have not Christ. Seek the truth and the truth will set you free.

Doreen, I want to thank you for your heartfelt effort here. But if half of what you believe the Catholic Church teaches were as you seem to think it is, then we wouldn’t be Catholic either.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

ThomasMore1535:

Yes, we are focusing on Him, because there is something called Absolute Truth. Jesus did not teach many doctrines on the Eucharist, only one doctrine. Only one can be right. He is “The Way, the Truth and the Life.” You are creating a false dichotemy between details and Him. We are focusing on Him when we talk about what the Eucharist actually means. It’s much better if you (as you have been) actually respond to the arguments rather than complain about “arguing about the details.” That’s something that the liberals do, and we, as God’s children, should not imitate them in that manner.

I did not state that there was more than one truth, I stated that its not exactly clear as to what everyone is saying the truth is from the posts so far, it seems that to quote my self *“From what I read on the first post I think the first post assumes protestants think something and Im not sure that they do.” * So Im merely trying to figure out what exactly is the arguement.

Then I mentioned why it does concern me in the first place. Im not complaining that people are arguing about details, Im seriously concerned that details keep us arguing and therefore we are concerned about details and not properly focused on God. This is something that keeps us from truly loving and understanding each other the way we should.

And Im going to forgive you for calling me a liberal

 

[Doreen]

mercygate:

Doreen, I want to thank you for your heartfelt effort here. But if half of what you believe the Catholic Church teaches were as you seem to think it is, then we wouldn’t be Catholic either.

I grew up in the Catholic Church, and this is the teaching I got from it…

that I must perform religious duties in order to make it to heaven

that I must confess to the priest when I sin

that I must pray rote prayers for the forgiveness of my sins

that I must be good in order to obtain salvation

that I must light a candle (after payment) to pray for my dead friends, that they might be given a chance at heaven

…just to list a few things…

What exactly DOES the Catholic Church teach? Is it other than the above?

Where is the gift of Grace in the Catholic Church?

And why do so many of my dear Catholic friends and family continue to live sinful lives if there truly is power to overcome sin in the Catholic faith? My brothers and sisters and friends who faithfully perform the acts of religious duty professed by the faith continue to drink and get drunk, they continue to abuse their bodies in vain efforts to be accepted by others, they continue to live in the world of materialism and sin. So, I ask you…what good is that kind of faith?

The beautiful gifts and promises given to believers and followers of Christ are all but ignored by 99 percent of the Catholics that I know. Do you see the fruits of the Spirit in your Catholic community? LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, GOODNESS, GENTLENESS, SELF-CONTROL… I wish I did, but I see my brothers and sisters drinking and smoking, partying like there is no tomorrow, swearing, using the Lord’s name in vain, and even accepting sexually immoral practices as if they are “normal.” And they justify this by saying, “we all sin” … and they race to confession to ask for absolution…then do it all over the next day!
Where’s true repentance? Where’s the transformation that was displayed in Jacob/Israel, Saul/Paul?

I wish I could see the fruit in the lives of more Catholics, but I don’t, and for that reason, I question the faith.

Examine the fruit of the church…is there victory? Joy? (My recollection is we didn’t even take off our coats, we were so anxious to beat it out of there in time for kick-off!)

How many of your Catholic friends really desire to WORSHIP?

These are questions the church should be asking itself!

I hope that you have found joy in your walk, and peace for your soul. I pray you have victory. But I grieve to think of the many who do not, and they don’t even know that they’re missing out!
So sad.

In His Love,
D.Gibbs

 

[ThomasMore1535]

Kitty Chan:

Then I mentioned why it does concern me in the first place. Im not complaining that people are arguing about details, Im seriously concerned that details keep us arguing and therefore we are concerned about details and not properly focused on God. This is something that keeps us from truly loving and understanding each other the way we should.

And Im going to forgive you for calling me a liberal

You seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you say that you’re not concerned about people arguing about the details, but on the other hand, you then immediately go on to say that the details are keeping us arguing and that this prevents us from loving and understanding each other. I would think that going into the details would enable us to understand each other to the fullest possible extent, since we would then know exactly what we think. This is focusing on God.

So, again, I would say that your arguments sound very liberal. You seem upset that we’re going into the details because they’re “divisive.”

 

[Kitty_Chan]

mercygate:

Ok re the Mustum wine is that for the priest or the congragation? Is it a separate cup for certain people or does everyone use it? That would seem like a good solution. But then you say that grape juice isnt any good so it has to be kosher wine so how could the munstrum be alright? Im sorry its confusing.

The bit about the jews separating the food wasnt a question just a comment that I understand that they are the only ones that have to separate food prepare it specially etc. Im surprised that Catholics use kosher wine.

So if people examine their consciences twice daily. Most people do it with a time of set prayer each day. Then whats the need for confession in the booth with the priest, to make it official or something??

Once again when you comment about my details comment, I to strive with all the love in our hearts to do what he has commanded us to do. Im saying when it gets to bickering about things then no ones looking at God. Does that make any sense yet?

to continue in a bit . . .

 

[Kay_Cee]

Doreen:

I grew up in the Catholic Church, and this is the teaching I got from it…

that I must perform religious duties in order to make it to heaven

that I must confess to the priest when I sin

that I must pray rote prayers for the forgiveness of my sins

that I must be good in order to obtain salvation

that I must light a candle (after payment) to pray for my dead friends, that they might be given a chance at heaven

…just to list a few things…

What exactly DOES the Catholic Church teach? Is it other than the above?

In a word, yes!

First of all, what do you mean by “religious duties”? If you mean attending Mass, we are obligated to keep holy the Sabbath. That’s God’s rule.

We confess our sins to Christ, through the priest. A priest, by himself, has no power whatsoever to forgive sins. Only God can do that, but He chooses to do it through the priest. Jesus said, “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:23)

You are not required to pray rote prayers like the rosary at all.

Of course you must be good in order to be saved, unless you think evil people go to heaven.

I don’t know where in the world you got the idea that lighting a candle gives a deceased person a chance at heaven. That is absurd.

If these are things you were taught, you were either taught wrong or you misunderstood. I get the feeling that you may have been taught certain things as a child but misunderstood them and have carried this misunderstanding into adulthood. Please find out what the Church actually teaches!

 

[Doreen]

I am sorry, first of all, that I come across as attacking the faith. That is not my intent. I really just want to understand what I was taught…

First of all, what do you mean by “religious duties”? If you mean attending Mass, we are obligated to keep holy the Sabbath. That’s God’s rule.

By duties, I do not mean keeping in the Sabbath Holy. I mean the various “traditions” of the church, like infant baptism, having a “first” communion ceremony, going to the priest for confession, genuflecting, making the sign of the cross, praying the rosary, lighting candles, and the like…

I don’t believe these are all bad things, but what I don’t understand is how it is they have gone from “symbolic” acts of faith, to rites of passage into heaven. Even going to Mass can be seen as a “duty” and to me that’s idolatry, because many think because they attended Mass, they are in good w/God … regardless of where their heart is at. And that’s the error that I seek to dissolve from my own teaching.

Along with that, I see many Catholics racing to confession only to walk out and cuss a blue streak about how hot it is out. What’s up with that? Where’s the repentance? The turning away from sin?

These are the questions I have. And as for the candles…I agree. Seems absurd, but I do recall having been grieving for a friend, a nun told me if I put a dollar in the collection box, I could light a candle and pray for my friend. (Since I wasn’t sure he was in heaven.) Now, I understand that we are not to pray for the dead. So to me that’s bad theology. Help me understand exactly what those candles are meant for…because, probably you are right…I had some wrong teaching as a child and I want to get it right. So teach me.

We confess our sins to Christ, through the priest. A priest, by himself, has no power whatsoever to forgive sins. Only God can do that, but He chooses to do it through the priest. Jesus said, “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:23)

Can you give me the Scripture that shows where Jesus said the Priest should be the one to hear confessions. And is it okay that I just confess to the Lord directly?

You are not required to pray rote prayers like the rosary at all.

Another bad teaching from my youth. Why did the priest tell me to go say 4 Our Fathers and 6 Hail Mary’s after confession?

Of course you must be good in order to be saved, unless you think evil people go to heaven.

The trouble I found is I could never be good enough…not without help from the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe any of us is good enough (we all sin and fall short)…but with the gift of the Spirit, we are able to resist temptation and we become a new creation – and therefore we become overcomers. I never felt I could “overcome” by simply going to Mass and Confession. It was a spiral of sinning and repenting that led to depression for me.

I don’t know where in the world you got the idea that lighting a candle gives a deceased person a chance at heaven. That is absurd.

Explained above.

If these are things you were taught, you were either taught wrong or you misunderstood. I get the feeling that you may have been taught certain things as a child but misunderstood them and have carried this misunderstanding into adulthood. Please find out what the Church actually teaches!

That’s why I am exploring this website. I really want to find out what the Church actually teaches! Thanks for helping me out in this quest for understanding.

Gods Richest Blessings
D.

 

[mercygate]

Doreen:

I am sorry, first of all, that I come across as attacking the faith. That is not my intent. I really just want to understand what I was taught…

By duties, I do not mean keeping in the Sabbath Holy. I mean the various “traditions” of the church, like infant baptism, having a “first” communion ceremony, going to the priest for confession, genuflecting, making the sign of the cross, praying the rosary, lighting candles, and the like…

I don’t believe these are all bad things, but what I don’t understand is how it is they have gone from “symbolic” acts of faith, to rites of passage into heaven. Even going to Mass can be seen as a “duty” and to me that’s idolatry, because many think because they attended Mass, they are in good w/God … regardless of where their heart is at. And that’s the error that I seek to dissolve from my own teaching.

Along with that, I see many Catholics racing to confession only to walk out and cuss a blue streak about how hot it is out. What’s up with that? Where’s the repentance? The turning away from sin?

These are the questions I have. And as for the candles…I agree. Seems absurd, but I do recall having been grieving for a friend, a nun told me if I put a dollar in the collection box, I could light a candle and pray for my friend. (Since I wasn’t sure he was in heaven.) Now, I understand that we are not to pray for the dead. So to me that’s bad theology. Help me understand exactly what those candles are meant for…because, probably you are right…I had some wrong teaching as a child and I want to get it right. So teach me.

Can you give me the Scripture that shows where Jesus said the Priest should be the one to hear confessions. And is it okay that I just confess to the Lord directly?

Another bad teaching from my youth. Why did the priest tell me to go say 4 Our Fathers and 6 Hail Mary’s after confession?

The trouble I found is I could never be good enough…not without help from the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe any of us is good enough (we all sin and fall short)…but with the gift of the Spirit, we are able to resist temptation and we become a new creation – and therefore we become overcomers. I never felt I could “overcome” by simply going to Mass and Confession. It was a spiral of sinning and repenting that led to depression for me.

Explained above.

That’s why I am exploring this website. I really want to find out what the Church actually teaches! Thanks for helping me out in this quest for understanding.

Gods Richest Blessings
D.

Welcome! Welcome! Welcome! Doreen: how old were you when you left the Church? makes a big difference. From what you say, it sounds like you left with your faith developed at around a 12-to-15 year old level (and not very well developed at that).

What you describe about the thrill finding a personal relationship with Christ is in no way contradictory of any Catholic teaching.

For example, the fact that you hold such a naive and distorted view of sacramental Confession speaks volumes about the poor catechesis you received – and your generation is FULL of people who were neglected and misled by enthusiastic laymen (and even Religious) who took the bit of “the spirit of Vatican II” in their teeth and ran with it in directions Vatican II never (NEVER!) intended.

God love you! Do you own a copy of The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

 

[Kay_Cee]

Doreen:

By duties, I do not mean keeping in the Sabbath Holy. I mean the various “traditions” of the church, like infant baptism, having a “first” communion ceremony, going to the priest for confession, genuflecting, making the sign of the cross, praying the rosary, lighting candles, and the like…

I don’t believe these are all bad things, but what I don’t understand is how it is they have gone from “symbolic” acts of faith, to rites of passage into heaven. Even going to Mass can be seen as a “duty” and to me that’s idolatry, because many think because they attended Mass, they are in good w/God … regardless of where their heart is at. And that’s the error that I seek to dissolve from my own teaching.

Okay, first of all you realize these are not bad things. But where you go wrong here is believing we think they are rites of passage into heaven. It is not required to be baptized as an infant, to make the sign of the cross, pray the rosary, or light candles to get into heaven. Sunday Mass (or Saturday evening Mass) is required for Catholics as our obligation to keep holy the Sabbath. The fact that some may think “because they attended Mass, they are in good w/God … regardless of where their heart is at” doesn’t mean that is what the Church teaches. We are always supposed to be in a state of grace, that is, a good relationship with God. No one is supposed to receive Communion without being in a state of grace.

Along with that, I see many Catholics racing to confession only to walk out and cuss a blue streak about how hot it is out. What’s up with that? Where’s the repentance? The turning away from sin?

Frankly, I’d like to see “Catholics racing to confession.” It seems to me that not enough of us go. The fact that some fall into sin shortly afterward just goes to show how badly they need confession. At any rate, neither you nor I can read what’s really going on in their hearts.

I know from my own experience that frequent confession helps keep me from sinning. I’ve had some sins that I’ve battled for years, but through the grace God grants in the confessional, have finally been able to lick.

At any rate, confessing without being repentant is a sin.

These are the questions I have. And as for the candles…I agree. Seems absurd, but I do recall having been grieving for a friend, a nun told me if I put a dollar in the collection box, I could light a candle and pray for my friend. (Since I wasn’t sure he was in heaven.) Now, I understand that we are not to pray for the dead. So to me that’s bad theology. Help me understand exactly what those candles are meant for…because, probably you are right…I had some wrong teaching as a child and I want to get it right. So teach me.

Okay, here’s an example where you misunderstood. First of all, it’s not necessary to light a candle to pray for a friend. And where do you get the idea that we are not to pray for the dead?

Can you give me the Scripture that shows where Jesus said the Priest should be the one to hear confessions. And is it okay that I just confess to the Lord directly?

First of all, where does Scripture say that everything must be in Scripture?

As for your question, please begin a thread about it, since this one is supposed to be about the Eucharist.

Another bad teaching from my youth. Why did the priest tell me to go say 4 Our Fathers and 6 Hail Mary’s after confession?

That was your penance. I suppose your objection is to “rote prayers.” If rote prayers are wrong, why did Jesus give us one that you mentioned: the Our Father?

The trouble I found is I could never be good enough…not without help from the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe any of us is good enough (we all sin and fall short)…but with the gift of the Spirit, we are able to resist temptation and we become a new creation – and therefore we become overcomers. I never felt I could “overcome” by simply going to Mass and Confession. It was a spiral of sinning and repenting that led to depression for me.

You are absolutely right that we can never be good enough without help from the Holy Spirit. That is one of the teachings of the Church! Of course you cannot “overcome” by simply going to Mass and Confession, but it’s a good start. Jesus calls upon us to have new hearts, to give ourselves to God completely. Mass and Confession are ways of helping us do this, but they are not the only ways.

That’s why I am exploring this website. I really want to find out what the Church actually teaches! Thanks for helping me out in this quest for understanding.

Gods Richest Blessings
D.

I certainly hope you do find out what the Church teaches! Please do get yourself a copy of the Catechism or read it online.

 

[SolaChristo]

ThomasMore1535:

You mean to tell, me that you do not believe that Jesus Christ actually went through a physical death for us? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Try saying that He didn’t go through an actual, physial death to His Mother Mary as she took His Holy Body down from the Cross, her eyes filled with tears and mourning from what her son went through.

Why is it that you believe that His Flesh, when Crucified and Resurrected, can bestown spiritual grace upon us, but that it cannot bestow spiritual grace upon us if we eat this same Resurrected Flesh and Blood? Your arguments make no sense, and you either do not know what you are talking about, or you are stalling because you know you are wrong and refuse to admit it. I will assume out of charity that it is the former…

Again I believe you misunderstood me. I said that I believed that Jesus physically died.

 

[Church_Militant]

mercygate:

Doreen, I want to thank you for your heartfelt effort here. But if half of what you believe the Catholic Church teaches were as you seem to think it is, then we wouldn’t be Catholic either.

Absolutely right! I was thinking the very same thing as I read her posts. I have to again agree with what bishop Fulton J. Sheen said many years ago:
**“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion, but there are many who hate what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion, Catholics would hate it too.” **
I suggest you get a copy of http://www.amm.org/chss/images/WORSHIP.JPG from The Catholic Home Study Service.
It will help clear up the errors that you have bought into and your misunderstandings. It’s available FREE.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[ThomasMore1535]

SolaChristo:

Again I believe you misunderstood me. I said that I believed that Jesus physically died.

Yes, I did misunderstand that part, and I apologize, insofar as I misunderstood when you said that you believed that Jesus died physically, but not spiritually.

Nevertheless, this still undermines your argument, because it’s quite clear that something PHYSICAL (His Death) is the source of grace for us. Why then do you say that the Catholic claim on the Eucharist is wrong, because it is physical? You are still contradicting yourself.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Beachia started this thread and has not been back perhaps they have forgot it The original post ended with this question;

Anyway, I’d be very interested to see what a non-denominational Christian would have to say I’m only trying to figure it all out.
Thank you and God Bless

I attempted a answer from that view and others have brought thoughts so now Im wondering if there is a conclusion on some of this.

Wine, I see that Catholics must have a wine that is similar to what Jesus would have drank including it to be kosher. (which is a jewish requirement of food preparation) and must be in a goblet.

Grape juice, non Catholics say its fine, although some do use wine. and served in small glasses on trays. or sippy cups if you prefer.

Dear Thomas this is an example of details Im on about. These I just mentioned are details. They are not the core of meaning. They cause arguments and nasty things to be said of each other.

What matters more is WHY would we drink Jesus blood and remember His death. Because no matter what we feel each other thinks (blood or no) **Non Believers ** think this is what either Catholic or Non Catholic is doing anyway and they toss in we are a sick bunch as well. Remember non believers dont make a line between names of churches they just watch us all. They complain but they are watching us for HOPE.

Now that said, I am still wondering about the original question. When I partake of Eucharist or the Lords Supper this is what I understand:

Christ taught in parables and examples I take it when He says this is my body then I see the bread break, but Im reminded of His body and how it was broken and maimed on the cross and He did not have to be there, but was there for me.
Same as with the blood, it was shed for me.

Now to partake “without recognizing or identifying the person eats and drinks judgement on himself” Therefore one needs to prayerfully examine their own heart and decide if they truly want to identify with and recognize who Christ is. If He is indeed their Saviour and did infact die on the cross for a wretch like them.

If one is lying about how they feel about such things then they will bring judgement on themself because of that lie, as God knows the heart.

What specifically is incorrect with what I understand, what is missing, or is this the heart of the matter?

 

[Little_Mary]

SolaChristo:

Forgive me because I dont follow your line of reasoning at all.
I believe God became flesh and lived amoung us., was crucified died(physically not Spiritually) and resurrected. I believe that the Lords Supper is a feeding of our spirit (or communion with our spirit man with the Spirit of Christ). I also dont believe that these views contradict each other.

Actually the bible says “…and the WORD became flesh…”

So for Him to say to eat his flesh, that must be what he meant. He is the Word. He speaks, and it is so. “Let there be light” Sound familiar? If He says it is then it is. ‘for my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed.’

 

[Little_Mary]

Doreen:

I grew up in the Catholic Church, and this is the teaching I got from it…

that I must perform religious duties in order to make it to heaven

that I must confess to the priest when I sin

that I must pray rote prayers for the forgiveness of my sins

that I must be good in order to obtain salvation

that I must light a candle (after payment) to pray for my dead friends, that they might be given a chance at heaven

…just to list a few things…

What exactly DOES the Catholic Church teach? Is it other than the above?

Where is the gift of Grace in the Catholic Church?

And why do so many of my dear Catholic friends and family continue to live sinful lives if there truly is power to overcome sin in the Catholic faith? My brothers and sisters and friends who faithfully perform the acts of religious duty professed by the faith continue to drink and get drunk, they continue to abuse their bodies in vain efforts to be accepted by others, they continue to live in the world of materialism and sin. So, I ask you…what good is that kind of faith?

The beautiful gifts and promises given to believers and followers of Christ are all but ignored by 99 percent of the Catholics that I know. Do you see the fruits of the Spirit in your Catholic community? LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, GOODNESS, GENTLENESS, SELF-CONTROL… I wish I did, but I see my brothers and sisters drinking and smoking, partying like there is no tomorrow, swearing, using the Lord’s name in vain, and even accepting sexually immoral practices as if they are “normal.” And they justify this by saying, “we all sin” … and they race to confession to ask for absolution…then do it all over the next day!
Where’s true repentance? Where’s the transformation that was displayed in Jacob/Israel, Saul/Paul?

I wish I could see the fruit in the lives of more Catholics, but I don’t, and for that reason, I question the faith.

Examine the fruit of the church…is there victory? Joy? (My recollection is we didn’t even take off our coats, we were so anxious to beat it out of there in time for kick-off!)

How many of your Catholic friends really desire to WORSHIP?

These are questions the church should be asking itself!

I hope that you have found joy in your walk, and peace for your soul. I pray you have victory. But I grieve to think of the many who do not, and they don’t even know that they’re missing out!
So sad.

In His Love,
D.Gibbs

Doreen, you left half educated. go back and fully educate yourself on the Catholic faith and stop bashing it based on limited knowledge.

 

[Doreen]

I posted this perhaps on the wrong thread, but here again is my take on the Eucharist…as seen from a non-Catholic/protestant perspective:

As I look at all the references to the bread…I can make this almost as simple as a complex algebraic formula.

John 4:34 Jesus says, “My food, is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”

Food = doing God’s will and FINISH the work (says Christ)

Jesus says: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” vs. 29

Hence: God’s Work = Belief in Christ

Verse 33 “For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

Hence: God’s Bread = Christ

35…“I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.”

Hence: The Bread of Life/Christ + our seeking him + our belief = total satisfaction (Somebody please tell this to the Rolling Stones so they can retire! )

40 “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Hence: God’s will = we look to the Son, believe and live

50 “But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

HERE IS (the bread) = I AM (the living bread)

This bread = flesh that will be given up
Eat this bread = Life

56 “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.”

Eat = remaining in me and I in him
Eat = Abiding

57 “Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

Jesus lives because of the Father = We live because of the Son

58 " …he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Feeds on = continual abiding

Which brings us back to an important preceding statement:

John 4:34 “My food, is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”

Food = Work

That is if we are “fed” by Christ, on Christ, we’ll be able to work as Christ to fulfill the will of God which is that we look to Christ, believe and live…and pass it on.



Do you want my hypothesis/formula for the blood now?