Protestant Argument of the Eucharist

[Tonyagrace]

Kitty

I have an idea and please prayerfully consider before you say no.
Please go to your closest Roman Catholic Church,
find the red lit candle,
there is the Tabernacle; where the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is contained. The Blessed Sacrament.
Have a seat or kneel
there are usually chairs or a kneeler close by…just get comfy.
And** just pray ** in His Holy Presence.
Okay so maybe you don’t believe yet…
**just pray ** and
ask God to give you His wisdom and understanding…
tell God, you don’t get it.
Tell God you are mulling it over and over and you keep getting stuck on certain pieces of the puzzle.
Ask God for His Holy Wisdom and Understanding…
not us a bunch of mortals…we can’t explain it to you…it is not something thier, my or your intelligence can grasp…
you need to go to HIM!
Blessings and Love!

 

[Doreen]

Kay Cee:

So how can one be sure He *is *continuing such a theme here? And, if Jesus were continuing the theme, wouldn’t there be some indication of that–like continuing the theme?

Where is it implied that it’s “parable-like speech”? I see no such implication.
QUOTE]

KayCee,
Have you read the book of Revelations? Would you say the things written therein are symbolic or literal? My point: there’s a lot of figurative speech, parables, in the Word of God.

I prayed that the Holy Spirit would give me discernment and not allow me to be confused while I laid out as succinctly as it came to me the passages in Post 60.

I believe anyone who truly has submitted to Christ as King, has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and when fully consecrated (poured out to Christ/set apart as His) has little trouble hearing the voice of their Shepherd. It takes time to come to a point of being able to get our “selves” out of the way, but once we start hearing the sweet whispers of Jesus, we simply know the truth HAS set us free.

Truly, as I went along, I didn’t have any idea what the final equation might work out to be…but it sure seems to be a beautiful expression of the message. I won’t take credit for it because I trusted the Spirit to show me how to lay it all out.

Now you have every right to reject it, since it is merely my understanding and you have no way of knowing how the Spirit works in me. I’d not blame you at all for being skeptical. In fact, I’d expect you to be thus.

But here’s the thing. If you would take the time to read the entire Bible, prayerfully, after having asked the Lord to be YOUR LORD and KING, and having accepted the work Christ finished for us on the cross. And having humbly cried out for the Holy Spirit to fill you with all the promises laid out for “followers of Christ” and if you decided to Seek the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength… you, too, would come to realize that questioning YOUR ability (through the Spirit) to understand Scripture is like saying to the LORD,…well, everything you say here is really nice, but I don’t buy it. … I’ll have to go check it out with somebody else.

If you want to take something literally, look up all the promises of God…starting with “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31-32 (BTW He was speaking to the Jews “who had believed Him.”)

Now don’t get me wrong…I believe in checking Scripture with Scripture … especially I believe we must PRAY before every reading of the Word…because it truly is Spiritually Discerned.

See, I have done all this. I have poured out my heart before a Holy God, and I have asked Jesus to take my sin from me, and I have repented sincerely and turned away from everything that might keep me from the Lord, and I have read His Word and I have learned to KNOW my King, the One whom I serve.

Why the symbolism? I believe that if Jesus laid it all out for us, we’d not have to get on our knees and humbly ask for true guidance. We’d take it upon ourselves, buck up and make our way …no need for Spiritual discernment, no need for a relationship…no need for a helper…we’d just follow the rule book, and give ourselves all the glory for how great WE are. Our God is no fool. He made us, so He knows our ways.

What an empty faith that would be. In fact, where’s the need for “faith” if we have a set of simple rules to follow, hoops to jump through?

It’s a mystery…revealed to those who are willing to bow before Him in true repentance, accept His Son who has taken our sins upon Himself and lay all our burdens before Him and truly follow Him. (obey)

INTERMISSION…I’ll let you digest some of these thoughts before I continue…
D.

 

[Doreen]

Continued…in reply to KayCee

Would you force someone to be your friend? How deep would your friendship be? Could you trust that person with your life? Could you trust them at all? Jesus is our friend only if we’ll decide to CHOOSE Him over all this world has to offer and make Him first in priority in our lives. A tough thing to do in this world.

But I stray from my point.

The people take him literally. That’s why they walk away in disgust. But if, as you say, Jesus meant it figuratively and that’s the theme here, why doesn’t He say so? Why doesn’t He say, "You don’t understand. I really meant *this . . . " *and then go on to explain?

Think about this…The LORD was extremely detailed and direct in His instructions to Moses regarding the creating of the Ark of the Covenant. Down to the very detail, He laid out every thing they had to do to create it, move it, enter it…nothing was left to chance. But in the New Testament, everything changes.

OKAY—PERFECT EXAMPLE JUST CAME TO ME AFTER I just now VERBALLY SAID, “LORD, I DON’T WANT TO MISLEAD HERE. I know you can help me with this. Show me where I can prove that you want to speak to each of us directly. I don’t want to steer anyone wrong. Help me with this.”

I flipped a few pages and found this jump at me:

John 16:25 Jesus says, “THOUGH I HAVE BEEN SPEAKING FIGURATIVELY, A time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.”
Wow…then check this out, the disciples say in verse 29
“Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech…”

QUOTE]If the Bible is as clear and easy to interpret as Protestants claim it is (so that each individual Christian can easily interpret its clear meaning), how on earth would each individual Christian come up with the figurative explanation you gave above (post #60)? Did you actually come up with that all on your own or did you read it somewhere?

LOL. I don’t have any idea. That’s what is so wonderful about the Spirit. He teaches us in ways that WE individually can understand. Isn’t He brilliant?

[Why is the literal interpretation so hard for you to accept?

There is a lot of the Bible that I do take literally. But in this case, as someone pointed out looking at John 4, Jesus is being figurative. And later in John, as the Spirit brought to my attention above…both HE AND THE DISCIPLES say that he HAS BEEN speaking figuratively!

I’m sorry. I know this would shake your faith in the RCC, if you had to throw this literal belief out. And I will continue to search and discuss this, but I feel that every time I cry out in prayer about this topic, the Lord sweetly and gently points me to His Word that says otherwise.

And here’s what I found tonight as well as I cried out for truth:

Colossians 2:8 “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”

Mark 7:8 “You let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” …verse 9 “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe the traditions of men.”

This is Paul talking now…so it’s safe to take him literally.
D.
[/quote]

 

[Wisdom]

[/quote]

Why do protestant forget that the Word made flesh is the primary useage in the Bible for the reference for the usage of Word. The word scripture is primarily used for the reference to the Bible that is to not rule out its reference as scripture but just to point out there are multiple definitions of the word and only only one of them happen to reference scripture and its still not the primary meaning.

 

[Doreen]

mercygate:

Be careful, Doreen. You’re starting to sound mighty Catholic. :yup:

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I have to summarize that equation because as I review it now, it seems more complicated than it should.

But a few points to add first:
Read John 4:34
“My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”

It’s clear…and nobody shall doubt, that Christ is using figurative speech in chapter 4…especially if you read on about how he talks about the harvest which eludes to Rev. 14: 14-20. (Which, also, by the way, is written using figurative language.)

Please note again as I said in another post: in John 15:25
Jesus says, “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language.”

Are we STILL going to continue to debate this?

Read John 6: 26-58 Here’s my paraphrase…if you don’t trust my summary, you’d better check it out in your own Bible …

the bread from heaven is Christ and it brings life to the world…and if you come to Christ, believe in Him, you’ll never hunger or thirst because Christ has come from heaven to do the Father’s will which is to lose none that he has been given but raise them up…
Then he further explains how we can “come” to Christ: by being drawn first by God, and we must first listen to the Father and learn from him…and he concludes by saying that the bread is his flesh which will be given up for the world. And if we eat it and drink his blood we’ll remain in him and he’ll remain in us.

And he elaborates by saying that those who feed on him will live because of him just as he lives because of the Father.

LIGHT BULB JUST WENT OFF! (DOES CHRIST LITERALLY PARTAKE OF THE FATHER’s FLESH???)

Let’s see…this fits with earlier words from Christ…come, believe, remain in me. The part where he says the bread is my flesh, is just so they can make the connection: body = bread which = life… The emphasis is not on the eat and drink part…since he turns to “feed” which can be understood as to daily seek him for our sustenance.

He ends with “I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

Now recall “feeds on” can be equated to consuming, in the literal sense, however Christ points out in verse 56 that eating is equated to remaining in. “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

And this fits with the teaching of abiding in Christ that we might have life.

Simple Equation:
Bread = Christ Our Savior who gave up His body and blood for us.
God’s Will = Finished Work of Christ
Bread + God’s Will = Eternal Life

And as I prayed tonight: “Lord, don’t let this be a total waste of time. Help me to be able to convey your truth in this. Show me that you truly are with me on this; in fact, speak through me, Lord.” He led me to this:

1 John 2:26
“I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real and not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”

Praise Him who continually answers the cry of my heart!
D.

 

[Wisdom]

I’m sorry. I know this would shake your faith in the RCC, if you had to throw this literal belief out. And I will continue to search and discuss this, but I feel that every time I cry out in prayer about this topic, the Lord sweetly and gently points me to His Word that says otherwise.

And here’s what I found tonight as well as I cried out for truth:

Colossians 2:8 “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”

Mark 7:8 “You let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” …verse 9 “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe the traditions of men.”

This is Paul talking now…so it’s safe to take him literally.
D.

How do you know it the Lord who guides your interpretation of scipture? I am sure Joseph Smith thought the same thing. An angel of light appears the same as the angel of darkness, the human mind can mistakenly divine inspiration for something else, hey Mohammed thought he was divienly inspired this alone does not equate any proff of truth this is the philospohy of Islam and Mormon not traditional christianity.

You know sola fide or being saved by faith alone is a tradition of man - mainly Luther try proving otherwise, I am sure you will have a weak case. And of course interpreting the eucharist as not the body and blood of chist is also a tradition of man - mainly Calvin and Zwinglii, you cannot prove by the church fathers such a teaching. So to avoid the obviosu teaching of the apostolic tradition you invent an avenue - sola scriptura to prove your tradition of men - sola fide and a eucharist that is not the true body and blood of Christ. Now who here is following the tradition of man?

 

[Doreen]

Wisdom,
If YOU knew the LORD, like I know the LORD, you’d not have doubt, just as I have NO doubt of whom it is that I SERVE.

He is as real to me as the breath in my body.

I will remind you that the original poster has asked for the Protestant Argument of the Eucharist, which is what I have supplied here.

And I am realizing as I do study the Scriptures and discuss with folks on here that the Good Lord can enter in where He wishes. Because I have shared a discourse with folks on this site who believe as you do, and they, too, I can tell, KNOW the LORD.

When you’re in the flock, you start to recognize your brothers and sisters in Christ by their voice as well…since it is similar to the Shepherd’s.

God bless you as you continue in the fight.
D.

 

[Tonks40]

Doreen -

I’m not a biblical scholar by any means. But I do understand that with Christ becoming Man, he fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament. I’m sure you would not argue with that.

He fulfilled it in many ways. He is Emmanuel - the One with us here on Earth. He is the new manna from Heaven…manna which was of physical matter - and that He becomes that same physical matter in the Eucharist (Christ referrences this quite nicely in John 6:48-49). He never stopped to explain that HIs Flesh and His Blood were spiritual food in John 6. If he did, please show me where.

Consider this:

John 6:54-58] Eats: the verb used in these verses is not the classical Greek verb used of human eating, but that of animal eating: “munch,” “gnaw.” This may be part of John’s emphasis on the reality of the flesh and blood of Jesus (cf John 6:55), but the same verb eventually became the ordinary verb in Greek meaning “eat.”

If eating was only mean to be spiritual, then why the more extreme use of the Greek word “gnaw” by the author?

 

[Wisdom]

Doreen:

Wisdom,
If YOU knew the LORD, like I know the LORD, you’d not have doubt, just as I have NO doubt of whom it is that I SERVE.

He is as real to me as the breath in my body.

I will remind you that the original poster has asked for the Protestant Argument of the Eucharist, which is what I have supplied here.

And I am realizing as I do study the Scriptures and discuss with folks on here that the Good Lord can enter in where He wishes. Because I have shared a discourse with folks on this site who believe as you do, and they, too, I can tell, KNOW the LORD.

When you’re in the flock, you start to recognize your brothers and sisters in Christ by their voice as well…since it is similar to the Shepherd’s.

God bless you as you continue in the fight.
D.

Well that is pretty condensending and presumptious that you know the Lord more intimately or in deeper way than I or any catholic simply because we differ on this interpretation. Just because you think its true does not make it true that is simply your interpretation of scripture it has no connection to the apostolic beliefs of the early church, the church fathers are a witness to this. We have allowed you to present your argument we are simply asking you to consider that your interpretation could be falliable. This you have no guarantee of. The church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Dorren’s interpretation of scripture is not the pillar and foundation of truth of which christiantiy has been based the last 20 centuries. Before you came along just who had all the right interpretation of scritpture and how old is that particualr denomination anyway?

 

[Kay_Cee]

Doreen:

Kay Cee:

So how can one be sure He *is *

continuing such a theme here? And, if Jesus were continuing the theme, wouldn’t there be some indication of that–like continuing the theme?

Where is it implied that it’s “parable-like speech”? I see no such implication.
QUOTE]

KayCee,
Have you read the book of Revelations? Would you say the things written therein are symbolic or literal? My point: there’s a lot of figurative speech, parables, in the Word of God.

Agreed that there are symbolic writings in scripture. That doesn’t automatically mean the Eucharist is symbolic. Would you say the Crucifixion is symbolic just because there is symbolism is scripture?

I prayed that the Holy Spirit would give me discernment and not allow me to be confused while I laid out as succinctly as it came to me the passages in Post 60.

This does not answer the question. I asked if you had read it somewhere.

I believe anyone who truly has submitted to Christ as King, has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and when fully consecrated (poured out to Christ/set apart as His) has little trouble hearing the voice of their Shepherd. It takes time to come to a point of being able to get our “selves” out of the way, but once we start hearing the sweet whispers of Jesus, we simply know the truth HAS set us free.

Truly, as I went along, I didn’t have any idea what the final equation might work out to be…but it sure seems to be a beautiful expression of the message. I won’t take credit for it because I trusted the Spirit to show me how to lay it all out.

Well, then, I’m wondering how the Holy Spirit can be so confusing. Because, frankly, I found your argument confusing.

Now you have every right to reject it, since it is merely my understanding and you have no way of knowing how the Spirit works in me. I’d not blame you at all for being skeptical. In fact, I’d expect you to be thus.

But here’s the thing. If you would take the time to read the entire Bible, prayerfully, after having asked the Lord to be YOUR LORD and KING, and having accepted the work Christ finished for us on the cross. And having humbly cried out for the Holy Spirit to fill you with all the promises laid out for “followers of Christ” and if you decided to Seek the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength… you, too, would come to realize that questioning YOUR ability (through the Spirit) to understand Scripture is like saying to the LORD,…well, everything you say here is really nice, but I don’t buy it. … I’ll have to go check it out with somebody else.

First of all, I find it insulting that you think I haven’t asked Jesus to be my Lord and King and that I haven’t accepted Christ’s work on the cross. Do you say this to everybody who has a different interpretation than you? Are you the only one the Holy Spirit is speaking to? How do you explain so many Protestants with contrary interpretations of scripture, yet all claiming the Holy Spirit is speaking to them?

If I check out what others have said on a particular subject, it is because I believe God does speak through His church. On the other hand, since you seem to think I shouldn’t “check it out with somebody else,” why should I check things out with you?

Continued in next post . . .

 

[Kay_Cee]

If you want to take something literally, look up all the promises of God…starting with “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31-32 (BTW He was speaking to the Jews “who had believed Him.”)

Now don’t get me wrong…I believe in checking Scripture with Scripture … especially I believe we must PRAY before every reading of the Word…because it truly is Spiritually Discerned.

See, I have done all this. I have poured out my heart before a Holy God, and I have asked Jesus to take my sin from me, and I have repented sincerely and turned away from everything that might keep me from the Lord, and I have read His Word and I have learned to KNOW my King, the One whom I serve.

That’s all fine and good, but what makes you think I haven’t done this as well? And how is doing this a guarantee that one’s interpretation of scripture is accurate?

Why the symbolism? I believe that if Jesus laid it all out for us, we’d not have to get on our knees and humbly ask for true guidance.

Upon what are you basing this belief? Where does scripture say that Jesus does not lay it all out for us so that we have to get on our knees and humbly ask for true guidance?

We’d take it upon ourselves, buck up and make our way …no need for Spiritual discernment, no need for a relationship…no need for a helper…we’d just follow the rule book, and give ourselves all the glory for how great WE are. Our God is no fool. He made us, so He knows our ways.

What an empty faith that would be. In fact, where’s the need for “faith” if we have a set of simple rules to follow, hoops to jump through?

It’s a mystery…revealed to those who are willing to bow before Him in true repentance, accept His Son who has taken our sins upon Himself and lay all our burdens before Him and truly follow Him. (obey)

INTERMISSION…I’ll let you digest some of these thoughts before I continue…
D.

What makes you think it doesn’t take faith to look at what appears to be bread and accept that it’s the Body of Christ?

Doreen, it looks to me like you are accusing me of not being a true Christian, and that, therefore, the literal interpretation I believe is wrong. That’s attacking me, not the argument. (I apologize in advance if that’s not what you’re doing, but it sure looks that way!) Please stick to the argument.

 

[Doreen]

Kay Cee,
I am sorry. I do NOT wish to attack anyone’s faith. My goal is to understand each other and to share what I have experienced, and to see how it lines up with other’s experience.

I probably wasn’t doing a great job of sharing things last night at 1-2 a.m. My apology. Really. It’s so hard to read a person’s “tone” on here…I hope you will know that I don’t mean to say that I think you have less a faith than I…and I have NO IDEA what kind of experience with the Spirit you have had. I don’t mean to imply otherwise.

I try to express that the assurance I have in my heart comes from repeated confirmation from what I consider the Holy Spirit. I don’t mean to say I know your heart or experience at all. I was just saying

you have no way of knowing how the Spirit works in me

I guess as I look at that now, and believing the Spirit works in all of us the same “way”…you are justified in being offended. I really am sorry. I have to take more time to evaluate how what I say on here might be received.

To answer your question, I never read from somewhere else the equation that I presented. I was examining the verses and laying out things as they were revealed and as I understood them.

Again, I did this late in the evening, and maybe I felt it was “crystal” clear as I typed it, but to others, it may be confusing. I guess that’s the issue at hand…how do we share what seems “crystal” to us because we feel it pressed into our hearts…when to others it’s confusing.

James 1:5-6 promises "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

This verse promises me that if I seek wisdom, I will have it given to me and I must believe it and not doubt. This is the TONE you are getting from my posts. That I refuse to doubt His Word when I call out to Him for answers.

The thing that I don’t understand, that troubles me about what the Catholic posts are saying is that we can’t pray and seek discernment without checking with man first. I agree that we should check what we receive with the Word, with others in fellowship with Christ through prayer, and pay attention to the “convictions” of the heart that are at work in us because of Him that is in us.

What makes you think it doesn’t take faith to look at what appears to be bread and accept that it’s the Body of Christ?

I never said that doesn’t take faith. I am saying that Jesus never went to Mass…I never see the apostles going to Mass…they go to the river to find a place to pray together (fellowship, pray, worship)…So I have trouble seeing these “sacrifices” as anything other than adding to the New Covenant in Christ.

I believe that God can still reach hearts even if they’ve been led to believe they must perform these “acts of penance/sacrifices”…and I know I have to find time to read more of the text folks have offered in this argument, so I can understand where this teaching is rooted. So I don’t claim to have all the answers. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em. This is a journey. I am enjoying the trip!

Your Friend in Christ,
D.

 

[mercygate]

Doreen:

The thing that I don’t understand, that troubles me about what the Catholic posts are saying is that we can’t pray and seek discernment without checking with man first.

That is not what Catholic posters are saying. We are saying that Jesus promised “to be with you always” in his body – what Paul calls “the Church.” We are saying that the visible Body of Christ is found in the succession of the Apostles. Catholics are saying that the apostolic charism of teaching resides in its fullest and most privileged way in communion with those to whom it has been entrusted by Christ himself – and yes: it has been entrusted to “men.” (See Jn 20:23, and Paul’s assertion in 2 Cor 5) Does this mean that the apostolic teaching is a “tradition of man that makes void the word of God?” No, it does not. Protestants do not seem to object to the fact that God entrusted the writing of scripture to “men,” I marvel that they find it so difficult to imagine that God has entrusted the apostolic teaching to men.

Protestants often reject “tradition” outright when what Jesus condemned was tradition “that makes void the word of God.” Big difference.

Doreen:

I agree that we should check what we receive with the Word, with others in fellowship with Christ through prayer, and pay attention to the “convictions” of the heart that are at work in us because of Him that is in us.

Catholics believe that the privileged place of that fellowship is in his Church – the Church he promised to build upon the rock of Peter.

Doreen:

I am saying that Jesus never went to Mass…

The Last Supper is the institution of the Mass, continuing through the perfect Sacrifice on Calvary and through the Resurrection, Ascension and descent of the Holy Spirit. Jesus IS the Mass.

Doreen:

I never see the apostles going to Mass…they go to the river to find a place to pray together (fellowship, pray, worship)…So I have trouble seeing these “sacrifices” as anything other than adding to the New Covenant in Christ.

Did you see my earlier post with NT references to the breaking of bread? And did you follow up on the CA Library page? Where does “Do this in remembrance of me” fit into your system?

Doreen:

This is a journey. I am enjoying the trip!

And you ain’t seen NUTTIN’ yet!

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

The thing that I don’t understand, that troubles me about what the Catholic posts are saying is that we can’t pray and seek discernment without checking with man first.

Much has been written on the question of the relationship of the Scriptures and the Church. It is important to highlight the fact that the Canon of Scripture was established and determined by the Church and that this was not fully achieved until AD 397.

If the Church can define what is Scripture and what is not, then the Church must surely have the final, authoritative word on its interpretation. The books of the New Testament were canonized by the Church on the basis of the Church’s interpretation of their orthodoxy.

And the reason the Church can interpret the Scriptures correctly is because it has the commission from Christ to do so. This commission was given to Christ’s Apostles and their successors, the historic Episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. Only within the Body of Christ is the fullness of the Grace of the Holy Spirit. Only that Grace empowers a correct interpretation of the Scriptures.

Disjointed quotations from the Scriptures to “prove” this or that doctrine has led to a multitude of “theologies” and perspectives and denominations. “Letting the Bible speak” may be a nice phrase, but surely the Grace of the Holy Spirit is needed to inspire mere human understanding of the Scriptures!

If we are outside the Church that codified the Scriptures and whose Fathers interpreted them, how can we hope to arrive at the kind of understanding of the Scriptures that our Lord, not a denomination established by men, would have us have?

Let us cling, therefore, to the Church, the pillar and ground of the Truth!
(excerpt from an article by Dr Alexander Roman)

 

[Kay_Cee]

Doreen:

Kay Cee,
I am sorry. I do NOT wish to attack anyone’s faith. My goal is to understand each other and to share what I have experienced, and to see how it lines up with other’s experience.

I probably wasn’t doing a great job of sharing things last night at 1-2 a.m. My apology. Really. It’s so hard to read a person’s “tone” on here…I hope you will know that I don’t mean to say that I think you have less a faith than I…and I have NO IDEA what kind of experience with the Spirit you have had. I don’t mean to imply otherwise.

I try to express that the assurance I have in my heart comes from repeated confirmation from what I consider the Holy Spirit. I don’t mean to say I know your heart or experience at all. I was just saying

I guess as I look at that now, and believing the Spirit works in all of us the same “way”…you are justified in being offended. I really am sorry. I have to take more time to evaluate how what I say on here might be received.

Apology accepted. I was very much hoping you weren’t calling my Christianity into question, and I’m glad to see you weren’t.

To answer your question, I never read from somewhere else the equation that I presented. I was examining the verses and laying out things as they were revealed and as I understood them.

Again, I did this late in the evening, and maybe I felt it was “crystal” clear as I typed it, but to others, it may be confusing. I guess that’s the issue at hand…how do we share what seems “crystal” to us because we feel it pressed into our hearts…when to others it’s confusing.

James 1:5-6 promises "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

This verse promises me that if I seek wisdom, I will have it given to me and I must believe it and not doubt. This is the TONE you are getting from my posts. That I refuse to doubt His Word when I call out to Him for answers.

Here’s the problem I have with that. Of course we can ask God. But what is His method of answering us?

If I’m praying to God for enlightenment (about scripture or anything else), and I seem to hear some “voice” in my head telling me something, how can I be sure it’s God’s voice? How can I be sure it’s not my own subconscious? How can I be sure it’s not something even worse–like a demon–telling me something?

Now, I’m not saying you’re hearing demons. And I’m not saying that if you’re getting a “message” that it’s wrong. It’s just that I don’t think waiting to hear God’s voice is a good method. If it were, wouldn’t all Christians who employ this method be united in their theology? Since they obviously aren’t, this method doesn’t seem reliable. If it were, I should believe the LDS missionaries who came to my door and told me Joseph Smith saw an angel of the Lord who told him all current religions were abominations to God.

Now, Christ did not leave us orphans. What He left us was a Church, which St. Paul calls the pillar and foundation of truth. (1 Tim. 3:15). So, I’m going to look to that Church for the truth. I’m going to look at the early Christians who were taught by the apostles themselves.

The thing that I don’t understand, that troubles me about what the Catholic posts are saying is that we can’t pray and seek discernment without checking with man first. I agree that we should check what we receive with the Word, with others in fellowship with Christ through prayer, and pay attention to the “convictions” of the heart that are at work in us because of Him that is in us.

I never said that doesn’t take faith. I am saying that Jesus never went to Mass…I never see the apostles going to Mass…they go to the river to find a place to pray together (fellowship, pray, worship)…So I have trouble seeing these “sacrifices” as anything other than adding to the New Covenant in Christ.

I believe that God can still reach hearts even if they’ve been led to believe they must perform these “acts of penance/sacrifices”…and I know I have to find time to read more of the text folks have offered in this argument, so I can understand where this teaching is rooted. So I don’t claim to have all the answers. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em. This is a journey. I am enjoying the trip!

Your Friend in Christ,
D.

As has been pointed out by others, we don’t check with “the man.” We check with the Church–after all, Jesus promised it would not be overcome by the gates of Hell. A Church that has spent two thousands years studying Christianity is a lot more reliable than I am.

As for “Jesus never went to Mass” I would argue that He’s there at every Mass. Even if you don’t believe He’s physically present in the Eucharist there, you must believe He is present where two or three are gathered in His name.

 

[Mickey]

Kay Cee:

How can I be sure it’s not something even worse–like a demon–telling me something?

The war which the demons wage against us by means of thoughts is more sever than the war they wage by means of material things.
St. Maximos the Confessor

Demons are not visible bodies, but we become their bodies when our souls accept dark thoughts from them. For, having accepted these thoughts, we accept the demons themselves and make them bodily manifest.
St Anthony the Great

It happens sometimes that the demons suggest some thoughts to you and then urge you to pray against them, to oppose them, and then quickly withdraw to make you fall into delusion, imagining that you have already begun to conquer thoughts and to intimidate the demons.
"153 Texts on Prayer", St Nilus of Mt Sinai

Reverent carefulness is necessary here because this sea-that is, the heart, with its thoughts and desires, which one must cleanse by means of mindfulness-is great and vast, “and there are numberless reptiles there” (Ps. 103:25), that is, numerous vain, unjust and impure thoughts generated by evil spirits.
St Seraphim of Sarov - Spiritual Instructions

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Kay Cee:

Now, I’m not saying you’re hearing demons. And I’m not saying that if you’re getting a “message” that it’s wrong. It’s just that I don’t think waiting to hear God’s voice is a good method. If it were, wouldn’t all Christians who employ this method be united in their theology? Since they obviously aren’t, this method doesn’t seem reliable. If it were, I should believe the LDS missionaries who came to my door and told me Joseph Smith saw an angel of the Lord who told him all current religions were abominations to God.

Now, Christ did not leave us orphans. What He left us was a Church, which St. Paul calls the pillar and foundation of truth. (1 Tim. 3:15). So, I’m going to look to that Church for the truth. I’m going to look at the early Christians who were taught by the apostles themselves.

As has been pointed out by others, we don’t check with “the man.” We check with the Church–after all, Jesus promised it would not be overcome by the gates of Hell. A Church that has spent two thousands years studying Christianity is a lot more reliable than I am.

Doreen and Kay Cee

Doreen you are saying you pray and listen to God, now I could be wrong but I know there is more to it. Kay Cee is wondering about accountability and you are not expounding on that. Kay Cee has a great point about Josesph Smith, what would you do Doreen if Mr Smith came around with his ideas?

Myself I am originally skeptical, why because Jesus directly said to be. So Mr Smith ones going to check the scripture if they agree and pray, then since this is big then pastor, perhaps family, friends that are believers, then I wont even mention the glut of books, and teachings available to us here. This is where a church can call on other churches to discuss such a thing. Catholics go through a similar process but probably involves higher leaders and ends with the Pope.

The only thing Protestants are clear of is the neighbour Catholic church (although indirectly the two are still connected). Protestants are not free to decide what they want things to be. There is accountability, there has to be as there is one Lord Jesus for us to answer to. While some of the paths may differ, they must end up in the same place. And it isnt in Salt Lake. If a person runs that scenario through the checks and balances Christ set out it falls flat.

my 2 bits . . . if it helps great, otherwise please leave it alone

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Mickey

excellent

I find it amazing those that deny the presence of such, the best thing the devil did was convince us he has a funny pointy tail and a little ole pitchfork and poses for chilli sauce.

 

[Mickey]

Kitty Chan:

I find it amazing those that deny the presence of such, the best thing the devil did was convince us he has a funny pointy tail and a little ole pitchfork and poses for chilli sauce.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

 

[Doreen]

Only within the Body of Christ is the fullness of the Grace of the Holy Spirit. Only that Grace empowers a correct interpretation of the Scriptures.

Amen, Brother. I believe that the Body of Christ is all who follow Jesus(i.e. confess, repent, submit, believe, obey, worship) and that those who devote themselves to the Lord are “transformed by the renewing of their mind” that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth.

You’re saying I can’t have that. You’re telling me that only certain “man” …beginning with Peter, and the apostles… can have that.

I am telling you that you will have to explain to me how it is that the CRY OF MY HEART IS ANSWERED DIRECTLY EVERY TIME!!!

You’re telling me I have NO RIGHT to sit down, pray, and COMMUNE with the LORD on HIGH through HIS SON JESUS, and experience the fullness of the SPIRIT …which guides me into all truth.

So…just a few minutes ago…I was at the post office, debating whether to include in a belated Christmas package to a distant relative in another country, the book “Knowing Aslan” …(feeling like I might offend them…that it’s a direct expression of my faith and what I think might help them to believe in God, because they had shared that they do not, and will they reject me when they get this book which speaks of the picture of Christ portrayed by Aslan)…

Before sealing the package WITHOUT the book (because I was afraid to be bold and send it), I prayed:
"Lord. You know their hearts. You know what their needs are. You know if they will be able to receive this message. Please Lord, show me clearly whether I should send this to these hurting young people. …and before sealing the package … I read the first seven pages. On page 6, I read about C.S. Lewis’s childhood, which I had known about long ago in my early reading of his stuff, but on page 6, I was reminded that he lost his mother before age 10. The young women I was praying about LOST THEIR MOTHER BEFORE THE AGE 10! (The one who spent a month last summer with us had shared how angry and hurt she was that God let her mother die. She said it happened just before her 10th birthday.)

Okay…now I believe with God there are NO coincidences. So I believe this was a DIRECT answer to my prayer. If this only happened once in a blue moon, (this kind of immediate answer) I’d scoff and say, so what…this was a mere coincidence. But friends, these “coincidences” happen to me EVERY TIME I pray. Now go ahead and tell me that equates me with Joseph Smith. I’ll tell you to ask your Catholic friends about whether they have experienced this. And ask them if they can be sure it is the Spirit of Truth. (C’mon people, I know you’re out there! Speak up!)

This is my testimony. I seek the Lord, and He responds faithfully. SO I can’t doubt Him. It would be an insult to Him.

Again: I am a normal Joe/Jane who feels that Scripture is there for those whose HOPE is IN the Lord.

There’s nothing you can say to make me doubt that. I still have to read your citations and that may help me understand how the Mass is not adding to the Covenant…I’ll do so tonight.

I’ll attempt to reply to your other questions in another post. These always get so long. Sorry.

<><
“Just keep swimming…Just keep swimming…” :dancing:
D.