Protestant Argument of the Eucharist

[mercygate]

Huguenot:

But what sacrifice could we offer to God ? Jesus has offered Himself for us, there is no sacrifice we could offer Him in return…
In my church we don’t consecrate the bread and the wine, we thank God for Christ’s sacrifice…
And we commemorate His death in “remembrance of him”, just as He ordered us to do, which means that we remember that He died for our sins …

The Eucharist is a “sacrifice of thanksgiving” – in the manner of the sacrifice of Melchizedek. We offer bread and wine, which Christ receives in his perpetual offering of himself to the Father.

The full scriptural integrity of sacrifice, particularly the Lord’s Sacrifice, entails much more than going through the motions of the Last Supper.

By the way, in Greek, the word ‘remembrance’ – anamnesis – means ‘making present.’

How did Huguenots derive their way of celebrating the Lord’s supper?

 

[Shiann]

Huguenot:

But what sacrifice could we offer to God ? Jesus has offered Himself for us, there is no sacrifice we could offer Him in return…
In my church we don’t consecrate the bread and the wine, we thank God for Christ’s sacrifice…
And we commemorate His death in “remembrance of him”, just as He ordered us to do, which means that we remember that He died for our sins …

I’m hoping mercygate (et. al) can offer some clarity on this as well…

I have always thougth of this sacrifice as also being all the everyday things that I carry around in my heart and mind (worries, sinful habits, etc) that my humanity cannot seem to let go of.

God came, and died to take those from me personally!

So along with the sacrifice of bread and wine that I and my parish collectively offer- I also offer my personal struggles, sins, worries, heartache, anger… all the junk that he came to save me from.

 

[mercygate]

Shiann:

I’m hoping mercygate (et. al) can offer some clarity on this as well…

I have always thougth of this sacrifice as also being all the everyday things that I carry around in my heart and mind (worries, sinful habits, etc) that my humanity cannot seem to let go of.

God came, and died to take those from me personally!

So along with the sacrifice of bread and wine that I and my parish collectively offer- I also offer my personal struggles, sins, worries, heartache, anger… all the junk that he came to save me from.

Right, Shiann. All the things you mention are part of our world of sin and death. Bringing them to the altar is our devotional response to the great Offering of Christ.

This thread has focused more on the sacramental theology than on the pastoral aspect of the Sacrament. It is the age-old question: how can this be “real,” under the assumption that something “spiritual” cannot also be real (although God is spirit – as John affirms – and God is certainly real).

 

[Dorothy]

Huguenot:

But what sacrifice could we offer to God ? Jesus has offered Himself for us, there is no sacrifice we could offer Him in return…
In my church we don’t consecrate the bread and the wine, we thank God for Christ’s sacrifice…
And we commemorate His death in “remembrance of him”, just as He ordered us to do, which means that we remember that He died for our sins …

The sacrifice I personally bring to the Lord is the striving of my thoughts, words, deeds (the work of my hands) to be in union with His Will. I give Him myself in return for His gift of Himself to me. (And I would be incapable of doing this without Him.)

Now, this is the way I personally express it, so I hope that my words are not a cause for nit-picking.

 

[mercygate]

Just to introduce some theology into the discussion of the Eucharistic sacrifice, let me quote from Cardinal Ratzinger’s book The Spirit of the Liturgy:

What is worship? . . . In all religions sacrifice is at the heart of worship. But this is a concept that has been buried under the debris of endless misunderstandings. The common view is that sacrifice has something to do with destruction. It means handing over to God a reality that is in some way precious to man. Now this handing over presupposes that it is withdrawn from use by man, and that can only happen through its destruction, its definitive removal from the hands of man. But this immediately raises the question: What pleasure is God supposed to take in destruction? Is anything really surrendered to God through destruction? One answer is that the destruction always conceals within itself the act of acknowledging God’s sovereignty over all things. But can such a mechanical act really serve God’s glory? Obviously not. True surrender to God looks very different. It consists – according to the Fathers, in fidelity to biblical thought – in the union of man and creation with God. Belonging to God has nothing to do with destruction or non-being: it is rather a way of being. It means emerging from the state of separation of apparent autonomy, of existing only for oneself and in oneself. It means losing oneself as the only possible way of finding oneself (cf. Mk 8:35; Mt 10:39). That is why St. Augustine could say that the true “sacrifice” is the civitas Dei, that is, love-transformed mankind, the divinization of creation and the surrender of all things to God: God all in all (cf. I Cor 15:28). That is the purpose of the world. That is the essence of sacrifice and worship. (pp. 27-28)

 

[Darrel]

Under the old covenant God ‘literally’ resided over the ark. Under this covenant God i.e. Christ gave us only one object based ritual to follow before he returned to the father. So when he says “do this in memory of me”, shall we just say “oh ok thats nothing but a symbol and ummmm maybe once a month we can sneak it in”? I think not.

The seperation between God and man ended at the cross, this is the real presence of God made available to all. To reduce this to nothing like the protestant world does is devoid of common sense. Like I said, it’s the one thing he told us to do after he returned to the Father. Maybe it should be taken seriously.

-D

 

[Doreen]

mercygate:

This may be a language problem. In a way we do have to offer **our **sacrifice each time we come to the Sacrament because we are locked in time and space. In order to follow the mandate of our Lord to “do this,” we must bring our bread and wine each time we follow his word. Christ is not limited by time and space, but in the Incarnation brings time and space into a physical relationship with eternity. So we bring our bread and our wine to the table, where it is consecrated and united with the one true Sacrifice of Christ.

I am exhausted…so I will be brief for once. (applause!)

Mickey–Thanks for the acceptance and love! I truly love each of you as well, and I am thankful for the internet, because it has brought me to you. So fun to be talking to NY, and Pensacola, and all ends of the earth! How amazing!

Here’s where I am at with all this. I don’t think any true believer would be comfortable slighting what Christ desires of us. So, I hope that each of you who are Catholic can love your Protestant neighbors, and vice versa!..and if you really believe the Eucharist is commanded by God to be partaken of as you do, then consider how you might win others over to Christ. For is that not the commission to all of us?

I don’t feel I have settled on an answer with all this, and I am not done searching it out…but one thing that has become very clear is that we are blessed when we lay ourselves before our Holy and Merciful God! And we cannot overcome sin without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit…and one thing I have found in my own experience is:

When I give up control of things and ask the Lord to change me, or deal with something, HE DOES! He is faithful! And the truth is we can have victory over sin, folks. Don’t accept these cycles of falling back into a sin nature…if Christ indwells you because of the partaking of the Eucharist…does His Spirit fizzle out with your digestion of it? I pray not!

We have victory in Christ, and He is seaching the world for hearts devoted to Him. And His desire is for us to SHOW HIM to OTHERS, and not keep Him hidden as a “mystery” within us! (BTW that word does not offend this “protestant” in the least!) His ways are higher than mine. He is full of mystery…but He wants me to know His ways and His precepts, and that is what I live for!

SO–okay…enough said. I will rest now. I love you all, and I pray you have the peace and joy and victory that is only in our Lord Jesus!

G’nite Friends!
D.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

mercygate:

Historic Protestantism has not been “inclusive” regarding the Lord’s Supper. Common belief on the nature of this central point of Christian practice was always considered crucial for admission to the Lord’s table. Only recently have the denominations softened and allowed inter-communion.

well I dont know all these histories so thats fine I will go with what you say for now

Perhaps the main problem in dialogue between Protestants and Catholics on this subject is that Protestants tend to oppose “spirit” and “flesh.” But since in Christ, the spirit and flesh are united, we insist that his spiritual presence is “real” in the Eucharist, and we partake of it by faith in his words: my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. .

like I said before
*Maybe it can be explained just HOW is the literal thinking of it as flesh is DIFFERENT from symbolicaly thinking of it as flesh.

Because in either case its not physically the actual flesh, so BOTH are envisioning. *

myself I think I dont have a problem with the flesh but if the question above could be answered then Id know.

It is a mystery. In my experience, “mystery” is a word that Protestants find revolting.

Ohh no Ive heard pastors say that catholics have a good idea with just letting God have mysteries. So maybe some find it revolting although I cant see why. Does God not move in mysterious ways Do we know everything ? so of course there is mysteries, some to find out in this life and some for the life after. I look forward to finding out those things then, it will be something beyond words.


Actually Ive finally got beyond those nagging questions and finally decided that those questions ,I just put in Gods Mysteries File. He will revel them somehow to me if He wants, other than that its all good. It is well within my soul.

 

[Makaveli]

When the issue of the Real Presence of the Eucharist arouses, one cannot reject it simply because its “silly” that God is present in the Bread. For example, most people do not believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist because they say, “How can God be present to us in a inatimate object?”. One has to take into consideration that what God blesses is not silly its his gift to us. For example, look at the sacrament of Baptism, we are baptized into God by water. Non believers would point out that that is such a practice is ridiculous. But we Christians know that it is not ridiculous because God works in musterious ways and has the power to bless what ever he wants, in this case the water. Likewise, God can also bless the bread which he calls the “Bread Of Life.” It is very clear in the Gospels, ( Mt26:26-28, Mk 14:22-24, Lk 22:19-20, Jn 6:47-66), you can also look at 1 Corinthians 11:23-30.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

makaveli

to be clear I never said silly, I just would like a answer to above. Its obvious by now the motivations, sacrifices, feelings are the same this is the remaining question.

Im not questioning a inatimate object.

 

[Makaveli]

Kitty Chan:

makaveli

to be clear I never said silly, I just would like a answer to above. Its obvious by now the motivations, sacrifices, feelings are the same this is the remaining question.

Im not questioning a inatimate object.

To be clear, I never meant it you personally, I was speaking in general. Most people view the Real Presence in the Eucharist as silly because it is an inanimate object that is supposedly the Body of Christ. As I mentioned before, I gave the example of water and baptism, that is parallel to this subject also. They are gifts from God, to deny that God can bless these objects is to say that one denies the power of the Holy Spirit. It clearly states in the Gospels that Jesus says, “This is my Body,” many of his followers could not accept this and even abandoned him. To look closely at this, I would recommend John Chapter 6:22-59.

 

[mercygate]

Kitty Chan:

well I dont know all these histories so thats fine I will go with what you say for now

like I said before
Maybe it can be explained just HOW is the literal thinking of it as flesh is DIFFERENT from symbolicaly thinking of it as flesh.

*Because in either case its not physically the actual flesh, so BOTH are envisioning. *

myself I think I dont have a problem with the flesh but if the question above could be answered then Id know.

Ohh no Ive heard pastors say that catholics have a good idea with just letting God have mysteries. So maybe some find it revolting although I cant see why. Does God not move in mysterious ways Do we know everything ? so of course there is mysteries, some to find out in this life and some for the life after. I look forward to finding out those things then, it will be something beyond words.


Actually Ive finally got beyond those nagging questions and finally decided that those questions ,I just put in Gods Mysteries File. He will revel them somehow to me if He wants, other than that its all good. It is well within my soul.

I have a pretty thick file on that, too. In fact, I have been praying over John 6 in a concentrated way for about a year. What I come up with is: To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Basically: You say it, Lord. I’m gonna go with it!

 

[Huguenot]

mercygate:

The Eucharist is a “sacrifice of thanksgiving” – in the manner of the sacrifice of Melchizedek. We offer bread and wine, which Christ receives in his perpetual offering of himself to the Father.

The full scriptural integrity of sacrifice, particularly the Lord’s Sacrifice, entails much more than going through the motions of the Last Supper.

By the way, in Greek, the word ‘remembrance’ – anamnesis – means ‘making present.’

How did Huguenots derive their way of celebrating the Lord’s supper?

For Calvin, believers are “spiritually united” with Christ when celebrating the Lord’s Supper, I’m not ever sure of what it means …
And many Reformed Protestants ( who are the “direct offspring” of the Huguenots ) believe the Lord’s Supper is a symbol, which means that in this respect they are much closer to Zwingli than to Calvin himself …

As for me, as I have already said, I’m Evangelical and for me it is a symbol…( we must all be “Zwinglian” in this respect, even those of us who have never heard of him … )

 

[Huguenot]

mercygate:

Right, Shiann. All the things you mention are part of our world of sin and death. Bringing them to the altar is our devotional response to the great Offering of Christ.

This thread has focused more on the sacramental theology than on the pastoral aspect of the Sacrament. It is the age-old question: how can this be “real,” under the assumption that something “spiritual” cannot also be real (although God is spirit – as John affirms – and God is certainly real).

I agree with the term “devotional response” : I’ve also committed my life to God, maybe there is a question of vocabulary, I wouldn’t say that I’m bringing Him a sacrifice ; because God has done everything to save me, I love Him and I want to live in a way that pleases Him, that’s what I mean by commitment …
So I will fight against my sinful nature, for example , to please Him …

 

[Huguenot]

Darrel:

Under the old covenant God ‘literally’ resided over the ark. Under this covenant God i.e. Christ gave us only one object based ritual to follow before he returned to the father. So when he says “do this in memory of me”, shall we just say “oh ok thats nothing but a symbol and ummmm maybe once a month we can sneak it in”? I think not.

The seperation between God and man ended at the cross, this is the real presence of God made available to all. To reduce this to nothing like the protestant world does is devoid of common sense. Like I said, it’s the one thing he told us to do after he returned to the Father. Maybe it should be taken seriously.

-D

But I also think the “real presence of God is made available to all” !!!..when we pray to God through Jesus we are in His real presence, whether we celebrate the Lord’s Supper or not …
We believe God is present in the world, we believe that when “two or three people meet in His name, He is with us” ; for us it is something very real too !!!
And God is present in each believer through the Holy Spirit …
The fact that for us the Lord’s Supper is a symbol doesn’t mean we deny God’s presence in the world !!!

 

[Dorothy]

Doreen:

I am exhausted…so I will be brief for once. (applause!)

Mickey–Thanks for the acceptance and love! I truly love each of you as well, and I am thankful for the internet, because it has brought me to you. So fun to be talking to NY, and Pensacola, and all ends of the earth! How amazing!

Here’s where I am at with all this. I don’t think any true believer would be comfortable slighting what Christ desires of us. So, I hope that each of you who are Catholic can love your Protestant neighbors, and vice versa!..and if you really believe the Eucharist is commanded by God to be partaken of as you do, then consider how you might win others over to Christ. For is that not the commission to all of us?

I don’t feel I have settled on an answer with all this, and I am not done searching it out…but one thing that has become very clear is that we are blessed when we lay ourselves before our Holy and Merciful God! And we cannot overcome sin without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit…and one thing I have found in my own experience is:

When I give up control of things and ask the Lord to change me, or deal with something, HE DOES! He is faithful! And the truth is we can have victory over sin, folks. Don’t accept these cycles of falling back into a sin nature…if Christ indwells you because of the partaking of the Eucharist…does His Spirit fizzle out with your digestion of it? I pray not!

We have victory in Christ, and He is seaching the world for hearts devoted to Him. And His desire is for us to SHOW HIM to OTHERS, and not keep Him hidden as a “mystery” within us! (BTW that word does not offend this “protestant” in the least!) His ways are higher than mine. He is full of mystery…but He wants me to know His ways and His precepts, and that is what I live for!

SO–okay…enough said. I will rest now. I love you all, and I pray you have the peace and joy and victory that is only in our Lord Jesus!

G’nite Friends!
D.

Thank you Doreen, for a pleasant and lively discussion of the Eucharist!

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Kitty_Chan]

mercygate:

I have a pretty thick file on that, too. In fact, I have been praying over John 6 in a concentrated way for about a year. What I come up with is: To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Basically: You say it, Lord. I’m gonna go with it!

and ya wanna know something funny when chrisitians say “God said it so I believe it” non believers in Christ say we have no minds and follow blindly.

Sigh if only they knew who was truly blind.

I still maintain catholics and non are not that far apart ahhh ya cant blame me for being ever hopeful

 

[tdandh26]

Kitty Chan:

and ya wanna know something funny when chrisitians say “God said it so I believe it” non believers in Christ say we have no minds and follow blindly.

Sigh if only they knew who was truly blind.

I still maintain catholics and non are not that far apart ahhh ya cant blame me for being ever hopeful

Father Mitch Pacwa has a wonderful talk on the Eucharist and the words which Christ used at the last supper. He tells what the Apostles understood Him to mean according to the understanding of the Jews at that time period. He also gives a nice tie into why certain practices of the Jews were observed, in the old testament and how those same understandings influenced Christianity.

 

[Dorothy]

Kitty Chan:

and ya wanna know something funny when chrisitians say “God said it so I believe it” non believers in Christ say we have no minds and follow blindly.

Sigh if only they knew who was truly blind.

I still maintain catholics and non are not that far apart ahhh ya cant blame me for being ever hopeful

No, we are not that far apart, and we need to concentrate on what unites us (Jesus Christ!), and still continue to have charitable dialogue about what divides us.

God bless,

Dorothy

 

[Makaveli]

Kitty Chan:

and ya wanna know something funny when chrisitians say “God said it so I believe it” non believers in Christ say we have no minds and follow blindly.

Sigh if only they knew who was truly blind.

I still maintain catholics and non are not that far apart ahhh ya cant blame me for being ever hopeful

Read John Chapter 6