Protestant Beliefs Not in the Bible

[sabrinaofmn]

Continued:

I’m using generalizations, of course, that these are Protestant beliefs. Not all Protestants hold all of these beliefs, but most do. I am not trying to attack Protestants, but this is the fundamental issue leading me into the Catholic Church. The issue is this: Tradition is what separates Catholics and Protestants. Most Protestants are Bible Only, and Catholics are Bible + Tradition. The point that I am making is that Protestants believe many things based on tradition because many of their beliefs are not explicitly stated in scripture. If a Protestant can be convinced that his beliefs are not really consistent with Bible only, then that raises the question of whose tradition to follow if a believer is going to hold beliefs in addition to the Bible. The Catholic Tradition is the only contender for true, apostolic, Tradition. I contend that Protestants hold many traditions of men even though they say that they are Bible only.

 

[bengal_fan]

sabrinaofmn:

Continued:

I’m using generalizations, of course, that these are Protestant beliefs. Not all Protestants hold all of these beliefs, but most do. I am not trying to attack Protestants, but this is the fundamental issue leading me into the Catholic Church. The issue is this: Tradition is what separates Catholics and Protestants. Most Protestants are Bible Only, and Catholics are Bible + Tradition. The point that I am making is that Protestants believe many things based on tradition because many of their beliefs are not explicitly stated in scripture. If a Protestant can be convinced that his beliefs are not really consistent with Bible only, then that raises the question of whose tradition to follow if a believer is going to hold beliefs in addition to the Bible. The Catholic Tradition is the only contender for true, apostolic, Tradition. I contend that Protestants hold many traditions of men even though they say that they are Bible only.

my point is that almost all of the doctrines you mentioned can and are found in scripture. not necessarily by the exact phrasing used today but that is just giving a name to something that is drawn from scripture. my point is that your argument is not a very good one to try to use with protestants. try using the scriptures to prove catholic doctrines instead of using tradition and/or scripture to disprove protestant doctrines. apologetics is defense not offense.

 

[oat_soda]

not necessarily by the exact phrasing used today but that is just giving a name to something that is drawn from scripture

protestants whole arguement rests on sola scriptura. how could something so intergral to the protestant faith be non-existant in the bible?

I CHALLENGE ANY PROTESTANT TO FIND ONE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SUPPORTS SOLA SCRIPTURA.

 

[srkbdk]

Shibboleth:

Yes we do

Shibboleth:

Two things it is good that as a Protestant you believe in some of these things however that is one of the core problems is the Protestant church down the road from you may not. Number 2 is you may want to look a little closer at the teaching on the Real Presense prior to saying that the Lutheren church believes the same as the Holy Catholic Church.

Blessings to you

 

[Shibboleth]

srkbdk:

Shibboleth:

Two things it is good that as a Protestant you believe in some of these things however that is one of the core problems is the Protestant church down the road from you may not. Number 2 is you may want to look a little closer at the teaching on the Real Presense prior to saying that the Lutheren church believes the same as the Holy Catholic Church.

Blessings to you

I agree but it was a blanket statement that I was referring to…

Yes there is a difference in how we view the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. I did not claim otherwise. I do know of the differences between consubstantiation and transubstantiation.

By the way, nice to hear from you it has been some time since we last crossed paths.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Actually, there is already a list by Steve Ray: Why do Protestants Invent Doctrines?

Scott

 

[Melchior]

sabrinaofmn:

I am making a list of Protestant beliefs not in the Bible. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. My husband and I are converting because of a rejection of sola scriptura, and I am interested to hear what Protestant doctrines aren’t in the Bible. Here is my list for starters:

· Sanctity of life – life begins at conception
· Monogamy – John Milton and Martin Luther both taught it was okay to be polygamous
· The closure of public revelation
· The Trinity
· The canon of scripture – the word Bible doesn’t even appear in the Bible
· Tithing 10%
· The office of the Pastor
· Jesus pre-existence
· Sola scriptura
·· All sin is equal
· Just war
· Age of accountability
· Slain in the spirit

All but the last two can be either expilicitly or implicitly found in scripture without much trouble. The last two are in fact unbiblical.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

oat soda:

protestants whole arguement rests on sola scriptura. how could something so intergral to the protestant faith be non-existant in the bible?

I CHALLENGE ANY PROTESTANT TO FIND ONE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SUPPORTS SOLA SCRIPTURA.

You have a false dillemna with your challenge. If I were to say that I believe that the Gospels, letters of the Apostles, the Pentateuch, the Prophets and the rest of the Holy Writings of Israel and the church, directly attributed to the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles (or their companions) are the final authority by which the church must test all other teachings I am and making the claim for the historic doctrine of Sola Scriptura. It is an assumption based on what is contained in these various writings and does not require a direct verse in one of these books to say so.

It is an assumption based on history. The ancient Jews relied on the OT writings they had alone when they returned from exile. Not because the writings explicitly said to do so, but because it was what made obvious sense.

If one buys a motorcycle that comes with a manual the manual does not need to say in it that this manual is the best thing to reac for proper maintenance of this particular motorcycle. It is a logical assumption. That does not nea, you cannot consult a motorcycle maintenance forum on the internet. But I bet you would check any advise you got against the actual manual.

Mel

 

[Shibboleth]

oat soda:

protestants whole arguement rests on sola scriptura. how could something so intergral to the protestant faith be non-existant in the bible?

I CHALLENGE ANY PROTESTANT TO FIND ONE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SUPPORTS SOLA SCRIPTURA.

I have stated many times the verses that apply to Sola Scriptura. Like all things between us we differ on what the verses make reference to…

Keep in mind that Sola Scriptura does not mean – look it is here in the Bible!!!

Sola Scriptura means that we cannot write things that contradict or are at par with scripture. We cannot write infallible works – ipso facto add to scripture. Scripture is profitable for teaching, so are traditions – but traditions are not infallible. If at anytime tradition conflicts with scripture it is wrong.

I can write things and those things can certainly be correct but they can also be wrong. So Lutherans and other denominations have Catechisms and Confessions but we are allowed to disagree with those written documents. I could state that the Catechism is wrong. I cannot state that the scripture is wrong, only that you have interpreted the scripture incorrectly.

Protestants do sometimes use the word Bible incorrectly as a synonym for the scriptures. The Bible simply holds a collection of the scriptures. The writings of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, The Letters, etc. – all of these were scriptures before they were in a Bible.

We certainly thank those people who compiled them in one place.

 

[oat_soda]

That does not nea, you cannot consult a motorcycle maintenance forum on the internet. But I bet you would check any advise you got against the actual manual

???

I CHALLENGE ANY PROTESTANT TO FIND ONE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SUPPORTS SOLA SCRIPTURA.

 

[Malachi4U]

Just a note, either the person who started this thread just used some bad writting skills to make the points or perhaps it was a joke?

I have never heard any Catholic teach 10% tithing as current Gods law. I have heard many protestant preachers do it though. I cannot find any referance in Catholic books that demand 10% tithing either. (I have not looked for it either). Now Catholic clergy and Jesus do teach “ALMSGIVING” that I am aware of. Its a minor point but tithing is a work of the law (just another contridiction in faulty protestant theology) and almsgiving is a good deed that flourishes out of Faith. (deeds = works for Catholics).

Tithing proves we are saved by works.

Almsgiving proves we are saved by Faith known by its deeds. This is what Jesus taught.

 

[oat_soda]

I could state that the Catechism is wrong. I cannot state that the scripture is wrong, only that you have interpreted the scripture incorrectly.

your or my opinon is not important. what is important is the truth.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

I cannot state that the scripture is wrong, only that you have interpreted the scripture incorrectly.

Right. And you would have zero authority to say so.

Worst case Sola Scriptura–self-contradictory.

Historic best case Sola Scriptura–completely non-binding on anyone. i.e. useless.

Scott

 

[Melchior]

Malachi4U:

Just a note, either the person who started this thread just used some bad writting skills to make the points or perhaps it was a joke?

I have never heard any Catholic teach 10% tithing as current Gods law. I have heard many protestant preachers do it though. I cannot find any referance in Catholic books that demand 10% tithing either. (I have not looked for it either). Now Catholic clergy and Jesus do teach “ALMSGIVING” that I am aware of. Its a minor point but tithing is a work of the law (just another contridiction in faulty protestant theology) and almsgiving is a good deed that flourishes out of Faith. (deeds = works for Catholics).

Tithing proves we are saved by works.

Almsgiving proves we are saved by Faith known by its deeds. This is what Jesus taught.

Not to hijack this thread but do you think tithing is a bad idea? Did Jesus abolish tithing? Even if it is optional (I am not arguing either way) wouldn’t 10% be a minimum someone would want to give if they really love their church and consider themselves a part of her? Why wouldn’t someone want to tithe? Granted it should be done with a grateful heart. But I am honestly embarrassed when people in my denomination argue against giving a certain amount to God.

Mel

 

[Shibboleth]

???

I CHALLENGE ANY PROTESTANT TO FIND ONE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SUPPORTS SOLA SCRIPTURA.

Fine but like I stated I am sure that you will disagree with the meaning of the verse – at least you should.

The Latin expression “sola scriptura” refers to the authority of the Holy Scriptures to serve as the sole norm for all that is taught and confessed in the church. In numerous passages the Scriptures claim this authority for themselves as the inspired Word of God. For example, St. Paul writes in 2 Tim. 3:16, “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (RSV). Likewise, the apostle Peter declares that “no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Pet. 1:20-21; RSV). It should be remembered that acceptance of the Bible as the sole authority for teaching comes not from rational arguments or human traditions, but is a conviction produced by the Holy Spirit in the human heart. In other words, it is a matter of faith worked by the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures themselves (see 1 Thess. 2:13)!

There is, of course, no contradiction between 2 Pet. 1:20 and what Peter says later in 3:15-16. That the Scriptures may be difficult for human beings to understand in certain places does not take away from their divine authority. In fact, St. Peter’s words underline the necessity and importance of praying for the Holy Spirit’s guidance to properly interpret Scripture as we “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18; emphasis added).

For Lutherans, faith in Christ comes first as a miraculous work of God’s Spirit through the means of grace. Our view of the Bible then results from our faith in the Gospel.

It follows from this that for Lutherans, acceptance of Scripture’s authority is a matter of faith, not of “proof” at the level of sheer intellect. Accordingly, Lutherans do not attempt to “demonstrate” the inerrancy of Scripture on the basis of historical or rational evidence or arguments. Instead, Lutherans focus on proclaiming the Gospel and trust that faith in the Bible will follow from faith in Christ.

For Lutherans the Gospel is always of primary concern and is viewed as the central message of the Scriptures, while fundamentalists tend to view the Gospel simply as one of several “fundamental” truths (of equal value) contained in the Bible.

 

[sabrinaofmn]

Scott Waddell:

Actually, there is already a list by Steve Ray: Why do Protestants Invent Doctrines?

Scott

Thank you, Scott, this is exactly what I was looking for!!!

 

[tru_dvotion]

you are right in that not exactly

but it is somewhat similar. also, she experienced God in a different way than most anyone (if not anyone) before her. by our standards today, we might not have considered her experiences valid. i am not trying to justify the fake practices of many (protestants and catholics alike) but i am trying to say that although the term “slain in the spirit” isn’t in the bible, it doesn’t mean that the effects are invalid. maybe we needed a new term to describe what was happening (much like we needed a term like trinity to define what actually exists in heaven between the three persons of the one God).

You are comparing apples and oranges. And I am being very kind here. What the saints and mystics experienced and experience has nothing to do with the slain in the spirit practice and/or experience at charismatic services. Not the same in practice, or in theology, or in experience. The charismatics have it all backward and like with everything else they do, they explain it with passages from Scripture, and experiences from Catholic Tradition that may appear similar to the naive, but in fact are in contradiction and a total opposite to what they teach and do. You could not have come up with a poorer example to justify the practice of slain in the spirit than St Teresa of Avila. You can compare it all you want, it does NOT fit. Read her books, you will realize the same thing.

 

[oat_soda]

Fine but like I stated I am sure that you will disagree with the meaning of the verse – at least you should.

i asked for one scripture that supports sola scriptura so i’ll start with the first one you cited.

15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

this is not even implicit support of sola scriptura. if it was, it would have to say: “scripture will instruct thee to salvation… all scripture is inspired by God and is sufficent and the sole rule of authority”.

 

[Chris_W]

As a Catholic, I certainly would not dispute that the Bible is inspired by God and inerrent. Nor would I dispute that the Bible is good and profitable. But Protestants take it one step further and say the Bible is the ONLY authority. That belief is not scriptural.

What’s more, it simply cannot be scriptural because Sola Scriptura is not a belief that can be demonstrated to work. If it worked surely someone would be able to describe how Sola Scriptura leads a person to certainty of belief. I therefore conclude the belief is false, and since it is false it cannot be scriptural.

God must have given us the ability to know with certainty what is truth, because the Gospel of John tells us that “the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such to worship Him. God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.” (John 4, 23-24).

Sola Scriptura cannot lead a person to certainty of belief (absolute truth) because any belief that is derived from that method is reduced to mere human opinion, since it provides no authority with which a personal interpretation can be verified.

 

[Melchior]

???

I CHALLENGE ANY PROTESTANT TO FIND ONE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SUPPORTS SOLA SCRIPTURA.

Sorry. That should have read: “That does not mean you cannot consult a motorcycle maintenance forum on the internet. But I bet you would check any advise you got against the actual manual.”