Protestant Beliefs Not in the Bible

[Chris_W]

Shibboleth:

Luckily we are not left to ourselves. We were left with the Holy Spirit to help guide us. My faith is not in the Bible to lead me towards truth but in Jesus, his Gospel, and the Holy Spirit. My fallen nature will definitely lead me astray at times but if my faith is true and strong then I am O.K.

Not sure I know what you mean. Are you disputing my conclusion that Sola Scirptura cannot lead to absolute truth (which ultimately mean it is not scriptural), or are you saying absolute truth is not necessary? I am guessing the latter, so that is what I will address.

If the Holy Spirit is a reliable method for individuals to determine for themselves what they should believe, then all men of good will would agree. Fact is, all men of good will do not agree. Therefore, this cannot be a reliable method. I do not mean to belittle the awesome power of the Holy Spirit, but man is sinful and very adept at rationalizing, and this prevents the Holy Spirit from being able to pursuade all our hearts to believe the same truths.

Therefore it is entirely possible that men of good will may be seriously mis-led into heresies that can indeed affect salvation. Unless, of course, God did provide a means for His poeple to determine with certainty what is truth and what is not. If God did, then man has been enabled live according to the Word of God, which says God wants us to worship in spririt and in truth.

I will give an example that is perhaps more illistrative of the errors man can reach relying on personal interpretation. Remember the Christian man who murdered an abortion doctor? He completely justified his actions using the Bible. In fact, he posed a rather pursuasive argument that it was his obligation to murder the evil doctor. I am convinced that man truely believed this, and he prayed for guidance by the Holy Spirit for some time before committing the crime.

I don’t know how God will judge that man. What I do know is that he relied on himself and respected peers to arrive at what he considered truth. He reached a wrong conclusion because he did not know of a method of determining with certainty what is truth and what is not truth.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Excellent Chris. Everyone is claims to be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They can’t all be right. This demonstrates the Sola Scriptura reduction of everything to mere existential ideology. It reduces man to a cheerleader crying, “We’ve got the Spirit! Yes we do! We got the Spirit! How about you?!”

Scott

 

[Shibboleth]

Chris W:

Not sure I know what you mean. Are you disputing my conclusion that Sola Scirptura cannot lead to absolute truth (which ultimately mean it is not scriptural), or are you saying absolute truth is not necessary? I am guessing the latter, so that is what I will address.

If the Holy Spirit is a reliable method for individuals to determine for themselves what they should believe, then all men of good will would agree. Fact is, all men of good will do not agree. Therefore, this cannot be a reliable method. I do not mean to belittle the awesome power of the Holy Spirit, but man is sinful and very adept at rationalizing, and this prevents the Holy Spirit from being able to pursuade all our hearts to believe the same truths.

Therefore it is entirely possible that men of good will may be seriously mis-led into heresies that can indeed affect salvation. Unless, of course, God did provide a means for His poeple to determine with certainty what is truth and what is not. If God did, then man has been enabled live according to the Word of God, which says God wants us to worship in spririt and in truth.

I will give an example that is perhaps more illistrative of the errors man can reach relying on personal interpretation. Remember the Christian man who murdered an abortion doctor? He completely justified his actions using the Bible. In fact, he posed a rather pursuasive argument that it was his obligation to murder the evil doctor. I am convinced that man truely believed this, and he prayed for guidance by the Holy Spirit for some time before committing the crime.

I don’t know how God will judge that man. What I do know is that he relied on himself and respected peers to arrive at what he considered truth. He reached a wrong conclusion because he did not know of a method of determining with certainty what is truth and what is not truth.

Yes, our constant want to sin will lead us away from the guidance of the Holy Spirit. People will do and say things wrong, even when they think that they are right.

Was I right to do what we did in the Crusades and other things? These were people thought that they were following the teachings of the Pope. They of course were not but they thought they were and could put up a very good argument about that fact. This is a problem. Who is guiding the people into “T’ truth that the Magisterium teaches? Or is it only important for the Magisterium to have “T” truth and all others are left to their own interpretation of what that “T” truth is?

And of Course they all are not right. Not a single one of them is right. We all are flawed imperfect creatures.

 

[Chris_W]

Shibboleth:

Yes, our constant want to sin will lead us away from the guidance of the Holy Spirit. People will do and say things wrong, even when they think that they are right.

Was I right to do what we did in the Crusades and other things? These were people thought that they were following the teachings of the Pope. They of course were not but they thought they were and could put up a very good argument about that fact. This is a problem. Who is guiding the people into “T’ truth that the Magisterium teaches? Or is it only important for the Magisterium to have “T” truth and all others are left to their own interpretation of what that “T” truth is?

And of Course they all are not right. Not a single one of them is right. We all are flawed imperfect creatures.

The example of the Crusades is evidence that the Pope is not impeccable. He may be wrong about how he leads his life, the administrative aspects of the church, etc. But he cannot be wrong when he speaks infallibly on faith and morals. The Church has had many turmultuous times, when the Church was wrong in the way they handled things. But the Church has never been wrong, nor has the Church ever overturned a matter in which it has been determined employing the gift of infallibility.

Am I correct in understanding that you believe absolute truth is not knowable?

This simply cannot be so. God is identified as The Truth. If we cannot claim to know the Truth, absolute unchanging truth, then we cannot claim to know God. If we cannot know Him, we cannot love or serve Him either. That would be a truely depressing position to hold.

I fear we have departed from the topic of this thread. Sorry to the author.

 

[Shibboleth]

Chris W:

The example of the Crusades is evidence that the Pope is not impeccable. He may be wrong about how he leads his life, the administrative aspects of the church, etc. But he cannot be wrong when he speaks infallibly on faith and morals. The Church has had many turmultuous times, when the Church was wrong in the way they handled things. But the Church has never been wrong, nor has the Church ever overturned a matter in which it has been determined employing the gift of infallibility.

Am I correct in understanding that you believe absolute truth is not knowable?

This simply cannot be so. God is identified as The Truth. If we cannot claim to know the Truth, absolute unchanging truth, then we cannot claim to know God. If we cannot know Him, we cannot love or serve Him either. That would be a truely depressing position to hold.

I fear we have departed from the topic of this thread. Sorry to the author.

Someone can know that Jesus is the Truth the Way and the Light but that does not mean that they need to know all that there is about Jesus to love and follow him. A mentally challenged person cannot know God? Certainly they cannot understand the Magisterium, very few people can or else we would not have Apologetics.

So the only person that can know God is the Pope?

I can know a door but that does not mean that I know of all the things that compose the door. I can even have misconceptions about the door but that does not mean that I fail to understand its existence – nor does it mean that it will not open for me when I turn the knob.

 

[oat_soda]

So the only person that can know God is the Pope?

“In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him” vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm

We can’t know God because he is infinte and a mystery but we can know his Word. The Catholic Church has been intrusted to faithfully hand down the fullness of the Word for all generations. The pope as head of the body of Christ shares in the authority of Christ. As Christ is the head of the church, Peter’s successors are also heads. A body without a head isn’t a body. A invisible church isn’t a body either.

“The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hierarchical society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She is one, yet formed of two components, human and divine. That is her mystery, which only faith can accept.”

the bottom line is we can’t prove anything to anyone, only present how the Catholic Church is the most resonable. Why do you accept Martin Luther’s interpretation of scripture? If you believe the pope is fallible in faith and morals, then surely Martin Luther is too.

 

[Chris_W]

Shibboleth:

Someone can know that Jesus is the Truth the Way and the Light but that does not mean that they need to know all that there is about Jesus to love and follow him. A mentally challenged person cannot know God? Certainly they cannot understand the Magisterium, very few people can or else we would not have Apologetics.

Good point. I do not intend to say that we must know everything of God in order to love and serve Him. However, what we do learn of Him needs to be correct or else we will end up with a false sense of God. We will not know the real God, so to speak.

For example, if a person concludes God is unmerciful and we are doomed to destruction because we cannot possible uphold every aspect of His word, then that person would have a false sense of who God is, right? The good news for that person, is that he has the ability to know with certainty the Truth about God, because there exists an authoritative interpreter of scripture, who can ensure the correct understanding about God.

Sure, some will be content to know God in an ambiguos uncertain way. But does this approach fulfill what God expects of us? Surely not. God wants us to worship in spirit and in truth…not spirit and some truths (with some untruths mixed in).

I guess what it comes down to for me is this: If God did provide a way to know absolute truth, I want to know it. I assume most Christians feel the same way…its just that many are unaware of the means God gave us to have faith with certainty because they have been taught Sola Scriptura.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Just a note, either the person who started this thread just used some bad writting skills to make the points or perhaps it was a joke?

I have never heard any Catholic teach 10% tithing as current Gods law. I have heard many protestant preachers do it though. I cannot find any referance in Catholic books that demand 10% tithing either. (I have not looked for it either).

No, there is NO such “law”. However, in my own church they tried it very hard to institute it a few years ago. As a result there is a small minority who tithes, but the majority simply cannot. I know people, who would not be able to eat with the cost of living and the income they have. Nevertheless, the idea is still kicking around and it has not been defeated. That is why I included it in my original list. Not to mention, that if we all responded to each and every money drive and “worthy” project in our parish we might as well be tithing.

 

[srkbdk]

ShibbolethLets stay with the line you guys were working on the fact that there is indeed one Spirit yet so many different interperetations of what God’s word says. And lets make it simple lets put aborition on the line. Here is the question is aborition againist the will of GOD?

As a Catholic I know this to be true from the Church (not due to the men in the Church but the Spirit that leads the Church), as a Lutheran you can not know all you can do is feel that it may be wrong. How can I say that it is easy go to your church this Sunday and ask the question and you will find many different ideas on this subject, because it is left to each person alone to decide (not really the spirit). God knew that we would get side ways and gave us a gift that of his spirit, he prevents changes to faith and morals in the Church. Lets take an honest look at the Lutheran Church, How many changes to faith and morals have their been? Lets start with the addition of the word alone after the word faith in the Bible, first it was not there, then it was, and now in most of them it is gone again. The Scriptures under the protection of the Catholic Church have not changed and Never will. Another question do you have a woman pastor? Nothing against women but our Lord chose men for this role, and here is a test the Catholic Church will never ever ordaine a woman priest, why it is not in accord with the will of Christ. The Catholic Church will always stand with the Lord and not change in the winds of public pressure, not because of the men and women in the Church but because of the promise of Christ Himself.

Have a great day.