Protestant Bible Superior

[USMC_Convert]

If the Protestant Bible is superior to the Catholic Bible because the Jews use the same books they do (Old Testament) then how can Protestants deny Purgatory when the Jews also believe in praying for the dead from before Christ’s time even up to today…

 

[JonNC]

If the Protestant Bible is superior to the Catholic Bible because the Jews use the same books they do (Old Testament) then how can Protestants deny Purgatory when the Jews also believe in praying for the dead from before Christ’s time even up to today…

Depends on the protestant, which really isn’t a group. It is a term used to generally and loosely identify communions that are of the western Church but not in communion with the western see in Rome.

As for prayers for the dead, Lutherans and Anglicans do not prohibit prayer for the dead, and to varying degrees, practice it.
Here is a link from a Lutheran perspective.

One does not have to accept the idea of an intermediate state/place to believe, 1) that we can pray for the dead, and 2) that purgation takes place.

I’ll let those who don’t pray for the dead explain why.

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

Depends on the protestant, which really isn’t a group. It is a term used to generally and loosely identify communions that are of the western Church but not in communion with the western see in Rome.

As for prayers for the dead, Lutherans and Anglicans do not prohibit prayer for the dead, and to varying degrees, practice it.
Here is a link from a Lutheran perspective.

One does not have to accept the idea of an intermediate state/place to believe, 1) that we can pray for the dead, and 2) that purgation takes place.

I’ll let those who don’t pray for the dead explain why.

Jon

But Jon, if purgation after death can take place at all, doesn’t that mean that the Catholic doctrine is correct and that those [Protestants] who deny this are in error?

 

[po18guy]

I’ll grant that Protestant bibles are easier to carry, being both lighter and thinner. But, like lite beer, they somehow fail to satisfy. Now, Martin Luther’s personal psychology can be very well known by looking into his writings and those with whom he interacted. Not seeking to hammer Martin Luther per se, but it cannot be avoided, since his personally developed doctrines are held by virtually all non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians.

I cannot fathom why someone would go to those who reject Christ and agree to be held bound by their canon of scripture. That is simply beyond me. Doing this while knowing that most of quotes in the NT come from the Greek Septuagint rather than the Masoretic text is mystifying, if not surreal.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’ll grant that Protestant bibles are easier to carry, being both lighter and thinner. But, like lite beer, they somehow fail to satisfy.

My thought too.

Even though faith is a mystery, they rather want to leave too many of it unanswered when the answers are already given/revealed.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Well, I’m no Protestant but my Protestant cousin has a major problem with praying for the dead. When I asked him why, all he could do was quote Hebrews 9:27, which he says means there is only one judgement. When I quoted Apocalypse 20:11-15, he was a bit stumped. But I suppose other Protestants have much more developed reasons.

 

[cominghome1966]

If the Protestant Bible is superior to the Catholic Bible because the Jews use the same books they do (Old Testament) then how can Protestants deny Purgatory when the Jews also believe in praying for the dead from before Christ’s time even up to today…

That is an interesting parallel.

I am unsure as to how many Protestants know that the Jews believe in praying for the dead from before Christ’s time.

 

[po18guy]

Well, I’m no Protestant but my Protestant cousin has a major problem with praying for the dead. When I asked him why, all he could do was quote Hebrews 9:27, which he says means there is only one judgement. When I quoted Apocalypse 20:11-15, he was a bit stumped. But I suppose other Protestants have much more developed reasons.

Ah, there’s the problem. The Church across the street from his has a different opinion. Who’s right? Reasons they may have, but not good ones. Remind him of Luke 20:34-40 (as well as Matthew 22 and Mark 12)

And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him.” And some of the scribes answered, “Teacher, you have spoken well.” For they no longer dared to ask him any question.

In the transfiguration (Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), both Moses and Elijah appeared to Peter, James and John, conversing with our Lord - alive. Imagine the shock of the three Apostles as they saw these legendary men who had been ‘dead’ for 900-1,500 years! Is it any wonder Peter stammered out nonsense? They were stunned.

So, is your cousin thinking as men do and not as God does?

Yes.

I would give him two important books. A Catholic bible and Where We Got the Bible by Rev. Henry Graham.

 

[adamhovey1988]

If the Protestant Bible is superior to the Catholic Bible because the Jews use the same books they do (Old Testament) then how can Protestants deny Purgatory when the Jews also believe in praying for the dead from before Christ’s time even up to today…

I understand what you’re saying and to some extent I agree but just to point out a few things and that is that if I recall correctly Ethiopian Jews do use the deuterocanonical books. I don’t know how much the reformers knew about Ethiopian Jews, owever.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Ah, there’s the problem. The Church across the street from his has a different opinion. Who’s right? Reasons they may have, but not good ones. Remind him of Luke 20:34-40 (as well as Matthew 22 and Mark 12)
In the transfiguration (Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), both Moses and Elijah appeared to Peter, James and John, conversing with our Lord - alive. Imagine the shock of the three Apostles as they saw these legendary men who had been ‘dead’ for 900-1,500 years! Is it any wonder Peter stammered out nonsense? They were stunned.

So, is your cousin thinking as men do and not as God does?

Yes.

I would give him two important books. A Catholic bible and Where We Got the Bible by Rev. Henry Graham.

Thanks for the great insights and the book recommendations. I’ll be sure to get them for him as a late Christmas present.

 

[JonNC]

Well, I’m no Protestant but my Protestant cousin has a major problem with praying for the dead. When I asked him why, all he could do was quote Hebrews 9:27, which he says means there is only one judgement. When I quoted Apocalypse 20:11-15, he was a bit stumped. But I suppose other Protestants have much more developed reasons.

That’s why starting a thread with , “protestations believe, think, have, do, etc” is problematic in the first place.

 

[JonNC]

But Jon, if purgation after death can take place at all, doesn’t that mean that the Catholic doctrine is correct and that those [Protestants] who deny this are in error?

Well,purgation must take place, a cleansing necessary to enter His presence. That’s scriptural.
So, if one is not required to accept the idea of an intermediate state/place, I could say, yes, the Catholic doctrine, in a basic sense, is correct.

Joseph Ratzinger / Pope Benedict

Purgatory “is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where man is forced to undergo punishment in a more or less arbitrary fashion.”​

Purgatory “is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.”​

“The transforming “moment” of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time.”​

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=po18guy;14373508]I’ll grant that Protestant bibles are easier to carry, being both lighter and thinner. But, like lite beer, they somehow fail to satisfy. Now, Martin Luther’s personal psychology can be very well known by looking into his writings and those with whom he interacted. Not seeking to hammer Martin Luther per se, but it cannot be avoided, since his personally developed doctrines are held by virtually all non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians.

I’m kind of expecting to see Orthodox posters, and evangelical and Baptist posters respond to this with
BTW, Luther’s Bible was actually one book larger than the 73 book western Bible.

I cannot fathom why someone would go to those who reject Christ and agree to be held bound by their canon of scripture. That is simply beyond me. Doing this while knowing that most of quotes in the NT come from the Greek Septuagint rather than the Masoretic text is mystifying, if not surreal.

Well, goodness, wht should Christians accept any of the OT at all with this thinking? After all, the entire OT is Jewish.
OTOH, the Catholic Church doesn’t accept the entire Septuagint, either.

This understates the view of the DC books. The Christmas eve lesson read in our parish was from Baruch. There are Lutheran parishes that include them in the lectionary. Luther’s translation is still used in Europe. Effectively, the orthodox view was not a rejection, but an understanding of the disputes regarding them throughout much of Church history.

Jon

 

[SolaScriptura]

If the Protestant Bible is superior to the Catholic Bible because the Jews use the same books they do (Old Testament) then how can Protestants deny Purgatory when the Jews also believe in praying for the dead from before Christ’s time even up to today…

Is your point if you used the same bible as some group you should believe everything they believe?

 

[USMC_Convert]

Is your point if you used the same bible as some group you should believe everything they believe?

No my point is hat if you are going to use the justification that “hey it’s what the Jews use and it was theirs before it was ours so they know better” then you need to accept all their beliefs especially those beliefs because theirs was the religion of God first. So they must know better.

If you do not use that justification then why change the Bible what all Christians used for well over a thousand years before the likes of Luther, Calvin, King Henry, etc…

 

[exnihilo]

How they can is by not being bound to any authority. If there is no authority but only private interpretation then you simply follow the evidence and tradition that either makes the most sense to you or that you want to follow.

Did all Jews pray for the dead? If any did not then someone who wanted to deny praying for the dead could point to those who did no as having the proper practice. Even if it was universal or near universal to pray for the dead one could always say that everyone were wrong in praying for the dead. A Protestant could simply say Christ came to correct this bad practice.

Personally I think the evidence of Jewish prayers for the dead like so much other evidence makes a strong case for the Catholic Church’s teaching. Personally I think if you use the Catholic Faith as the template by which you interpret Holy Scripture then you can make the most sense of it and have the least problems. But others either reject this or don’t even bother to try it.

 

[SolaScriptura]

No my point is hat if you are going to use the justification that “hey it’s what the Jews use and it was theirs before it was ours so they know better” then you need to accept all their beliefs especially those beliefs because theirs was the religion of God first. So they must know better.

Sorry man, but that makes no sense. The Apostles trusted the OT Canon that was used by Jews before them, did that mean they should have accepted all their beliefs?

If you do not use that justification then why change the Bible what all Christians used for well over a thousand years before the likes of Luther, Calvin, King Henry, etc…

If you know anything about the formulations of the canon you would know how untrue that statement is.

 

[JonNC]

No my point is hat if you are going to use the justification that “hey it’s what the Jews use and it was theirs before it was ours so they know better” then you need to accept all their beliefs especially those beliefs because theirs was the religion of God first. So they must know better.

If you do not use that justification then why change the Bible what all Christians used for well over a thousand years before the likes of Luther, Calvin, King Henry, etc…

Or maybe we can use John of Damascus’ canon list.
bible-researcher.com/johnofdamascus.html

 

[po18guy]

I’m kind of expecting to see Orthodox posters, and evangelical and Baptist posters respond to this with BTW, Luther’s Bible was actually one book larger than the 73 book western Bible. Jon

It could have had 200 books and would have had the same authority: zero.

 

[JonNC]

It could have had 200 books and would have had the same authority: zero.

So, the Bible has no authority?

Jon