Protestant Canon

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The celebrated Lutheran Theologian Paul Althaus continues his comments on Luther’s dealings with the NT canon:

“In 1522 Luther writes that he can find ‘no trace’ of evidence that the Revelation of John ‘was written by the Holy Spirit’, that is, inspired. He places it in a category with the Second Book of Esdras. In accordance with this, Luther also changed the traditional order of the New Testament books. He placed those just named with Jude at the end of his Bible. ‘They have from ancient times had a different reputation’ and do not belong to the ‘true and certain chief books of the New Testament……After 1530, he even omitted the sharpest phrases in the ‘Preface to James” (for example, “Luther therefore did not intend to that the congregation should continue to read these judgments. For himself and in speaking before his theological students he maintained his judgment of James even later. In this, however, he was for the most part more concerned with preventing his Roman opponents from continually using James as an argument against the Reformation gospel than he was about the letter as such. In 1530 he replaced the completely negative 1522 Preface to the Revelation of St. John, with another which interprets the book in terms of the history of the church and shows its continuing value for the church, But for the rest of his life, he continued to put different values on the books which he had put together at the end of his Bible than on the ‘main books’.” Althaus, Theology, pg. 84-5

Luther thought that it was within his purview to change just about everything he didn’t agree with. Why not meddle with the traditional order of the NT books? Placing the ones that he didn’t care for at the back of the NT would reinforce to his readers that they were not ‘equivalent’ to those that he preferred and called the ‘main books’. Here again we see Luther displaying a lack of respect for well accepted Scripture, but (again) showing that he didn’t really have a very good idea what was written by and Apostle and what was not. Of course, we have to remember that Luther had developed a criteria by which he could determine what was and what was not canonical/inspired. Those things which did not ‘Preach Christ’ were (to him) clearly not canonical. And what was the most important thing about ‘preaching Christ’? Teaching Salvation by Faith Alone of course? James, which teaches against SBFA, was dealt with harshly by Luther.

Interestingly Althaus mentions that Luther was more concerned with the polemical aspects of his judgment of James than he was “about the letter as such”.

Rev. Louis Bouyer was a French Lutheran before he converted to Roman Catholicsim. He wrote his excellent book “The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism” as a Catholic.

“Luther was the first to have to recognize that all of the writers of the New Testament, other than St. Paul, deal a crushing blow to the theological structure (salvation by faith alone) he tried to build on the later. He had to rid himself of the express teaching of the Epistle of St. James by calling it an ‘epistle of straw’ – strangely inconsequential in one who claimed to restore the Scriptures to their place of supreme authority. Blinded as he was by the so-called Pauline character of the structure he had erected on a few texts taken apart from their context, he did not see that St. Paul contradicted his system (salvation by faith alone) no less formally than did St. James. After more than three centuries, all serious exegetes are obliged by all the evidence to accept this fact; there is not a single Protestant author whose works are of scientific value who disputes it. Extrinsic justification, a justification independent of any interior change (as Luther proposed), of any new capability given to man to perform acts pleasing of themselves to God, is so far from being a Pauline doctrine this it is quite irreconcilable with the whole body of his teaching.” Bouyer, pg.174

As for Luther’s being a credible interpreter of early Christian in his ‘quest’ to determine the authenticity of the NT Canon:

“According to his (Luther’s) knowledge of early Christian literature, there was a sizeable gap in time between the writers of the New Testament and the earliest Church Fathers. Luther regarded Tertullian, who died in 230, as the earliest writer in the church after the apostles………he apparently did not know the writers who later acquired the title “apostolic fathers”. He was therefor, able to invoke the historical and chronological argument in a form no longer available to theologians of the twentieth century.” Pelikan (Lutheran to EO convert), “Luther the Expositor”, pg. 83-4

This of course means that Luther was unaware of the 17 Early Church Fathers who proceeded Tertullian, or their writings. How weird is it that Tertullian became a heretic (a Montanist) and Luther thought he was the first Early Church Father?

Question: Would Luther have made such disrespectful comments and judgments about Holy Scripture, partly on the basis of the ancient Church, if he had realized how poorly educated he was on the ancient Church (the Early Church Fathers)?

Given Luther’s astonishing lack of knowledge about the early Church, why would Lutheranism have followed his lead and his judgments about those 4 books of the NT?
Hi Topper I like what you posted and has lots of information tat makes interesting points!!
 
**A **Jewish canon.

But not **The **Jewish Canon.

For there was no agreement on what constituted The Jewish canon.
DrBlank is relying on the canon of the Pharisee’s.

Catholic’s follow the canon held by the Hellenistic Jews and by the Apostles.

PnP
 
Certainly.

And the SDA quote that I gave also is quite accurate.

The problem lies in the assumption that you make. If you assume that the SDA quote represents all of Christendom, and then profess, “You see? All of Christianity believes that Saturday is the Day of Worship!”, then you are erring egregiously.

Similarly, if you take the quote from Josephus, which may indeed be quite accurate, but make the assumption, “You see? All of Judaism accepted the canon of the OT that Josephus professed”, you would also be erring egregiously.

Were the Jews that had the same canon as your Protestant canon correct in denying the divinity of Christ?

I’m pretty sure you would say “NO!”, so the above argument about the Sadducees is a curious one for you to make.

**A **Jewish canon.

But not **The **Jewish Canon.

For there was no agreement on what constituted The Jewish canon.
PR, thanks for the chukle. Your arguments are all over the place again.

And again, you paint yourself into a corner. Yes, there is not 100% agreement on Jewish canon, BUT the vast majority of Jews endorse the 22 (or 24 books depending on how they are divided) as canon. And there is pleny of historical fact/accounts to support that in Jesus’ time as well.

But by your logic, since there are small sects within the Catholic church that do not agree on the current endorsed Catholic canon, then the Catholic canon cannot be endorsed since there are a select few who disagree with the current Catholic canon.

I have no idea where you are getting your information, but read, study historical documents, speak to the Rabbi at the local synagogue, find out what their history is on the Torah and then come back with some facts.
 
PR, thanks for the chukle. Your arguments are all over the place again.
And again, you paint yourself into a corner. Yes, there is not 100% agreement on Jewish canon, BUT the vast majority of Jews endorse the 22 (or 24 books depending on how they are divided) as canon. And there is pleny of historical fact/accounts to support that in Jesus’ time as well.
But by your logic, since there are small sects within the Catholic church that do not agree on the current endorsed Catholic canon, then the Catholic canon cannot be endorsed since there are a select few who disagree with the current Catholic canon.
I have no idea where you are getting your information, but read, study historical documents, speak to the Rabbi at the local synagogue, find out what their history is on the Torah and then come back with some facts.
This has been an interesting dialogue to follow. I have a few questions that I hope will help me better understanding your position, drblank1.
Are you asserting that the Jews, status post Christ, have authority to determine which scriptures are inspired and bind Christians? From my understanding, the Jews did not “agree” on a canon until after Christ. If the Jews do have such authority to determine the inspiration of scriptures, why does their authority stop with the OT? They deny the inspiration of the NT scriptures, same as the deuterocanonical books, so should we as Christians consider the NT not inspired? If the Jews have authority to determine our canon, why do the not retain the authority to bind us with the Jewish law as well (circumcision, sacrifices, ect)? How are we to know of which things they still have authority after Christ, whom they reject?

Thank you for your response in advance. This thread has given me a lot to chew on.
 
PR, thanks for the chukle. Your arguments are all over the place again.
I always find it amusing when someone is making a jab at me, but makes it while tripping a bit.

But I will address your objection. I have only one position. The Jews did not have agreement on the canon.

Oh, and I do have another one. But it’s only because you brought up a ridiculous objection about the Sadduccees being wrong about life after death. And my position is: don’t you think it’s a weird objection to make, when the Jews rejected Christ himself--that seems to be more of a biggie than denying life after death.

Don’t you think so, drblank?
 
This has been an interesting dialogue to follow. I have a few questions that I hope will help me better understanding your position, drblank1.
Are you asserting that the Jews, status post Christ, have authority to determine which scriptures are inspired and bind Christians? From my understanding, the Jews did not “agree” on a canon until after Christ. If the Jews do have such authority to determine the inspiration of scriptures, why does their authority stop with the OT? They deny the inspiration of the NT scriptures, same as the deuterocanonical books, so should we as Christians consider the NT not inspired? If the Jews have authority to determine our canon, why do the not retain the authority to bind us with the Jewish law as well (circumcision, sacrifices, ect)? How are we to know of which things they still have authority after Christ, whom they reject?

Thank you for your response in advance. This thread has given me a lot to chew on.
I am not asserting that post Christ, the Jews had authority to create/change canon of the OT. What I indicated is that canon was decide prior to Christ’s time. There is plenty of historical data that supports what the Jews decided was inspired prior to Jesus.

After Christ, Paul asserts that the Jews are the oracles of the OT (Romans 3:1,2).

Jesus himself declares to us what He considered the inspired writings (Luke 24:44) Notice He devides the OT into 3 parts; the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms. He doesn’t say the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

From what I have studied and learned, there is just too much evidence against the apocrapha being inspired. One of the biggest, glaring problems (IMO) is they themselves indicate they are not inspired. Read 2 Maccabees 2:24-32 and 2 Maccabees 15:39-40.

Compare those verses to verses we all agree are from inspired writings like Matthew 10:19-20 and 1 Corinthians 2:12-13.
 
I always find it amusing when someone is making a jab at me, but makes it while tripping a bit.

But I will address your objection. I have only one position. The Jews did not have agreement on the canon.

Oh, and I do have another one. But it’s only because you brought up a ridiculous objection about the Sadduccees being wrong about life after death. And my position is: don’t you think it’s a weird objection to make, when the Jews rejected Christ himself--that seems to be more of a biggie than denying life after death.

Don’t you think so, drblank?
PR, I apologize. That was wrong of me to demean your argument. I did not intentionally do so but I can see after the fact that is was still wrong. I ask for your forgiveness and will ask God as well.

But see my post above as why we are to regard the Jews the keepers of the OT. Paul declares them so as inspired by God. And Jesus himself tells us what He considered the inspired writings.
 
From my understanding, the Jews did not “agree” on a canon until after Christ.
Yep. They had no agreement on a Jewish canon. For they had no magisterium to tell them what was inspired and what was not.

Thus, you are absolutely correct in your understanding.
 
PR, I apologize. That was wrong of me to demean your argument. I did not intentionally do so but I can see after the fact that is was still wrong. I ask for your forgiveness and will ask God as well.
Forgiven!
And Jesus himself tells us what He considered the inspired writings.
Could you please tell us the book, chapter and verse where he says that Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum are inspired?
 
But see my post above as why we are to regard the Jews the keepers of the OT.
Sure. But which Jews? The ones who say that only the Torah are inspired? Or the ones that have 24 books? Or the ones that have 39? Or the ones that have 46?
 
Could you please tell us the book, chapter and verse where he says that Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum are inspired?
Nowhere does he call out all the specifc books by name as how we divide the books today are not how they were organized in his time. But in Jesus’ words in Luke 24:44, he declares each section of the OT as inspired but does not speak of the apocrapha books.

Yes, Jesus and the apostles do not quote from certain books of the OT, but each section of the OT is quoted EXCEPT for the apocrapha. It is entirely excluded from any quotation.
 
Nowhere does he call out all the specifc books by name as how we divide the books today are not how they were organized in his time. But in Jesus’ words in Luke 24:44, he declares each section of the OT as inspired but does not speak of the apocrapha books.
Each “section” of the OT?

Could you please explain this?

Here is Luke 24:44

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 24:44[/BIBLEDRB]

So where does the above exclude 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith?
 
Each “section” of the OT?

Could you please explain this?

Here is Luke 24:44

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 24:44[/BIBLEDRB]

So where does the above exclude 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith?
The Law - Gen, Ex, , Lev, Num, Deut
The Prophets - Josh, Judges, Sam, Kings, Isaih, Jer, Ezek, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
The Psalms - Psalms, Prov, Job, Song of Sol, Ruth, Lam, Eccl, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chron

This was/is the common division of 22/24 books by the Jews that Jesus was speaking of in Luke 24:44. The apocrapha was never included in any of these divisions. Jesus excluded the apocrapha in Luke 24:44 as inspired.

Now the Protestant organize the OT differently, the Law, History, Prophets, and Psalms, but I am speaking to how the Jews organize the inspired writings of the OT.
 
The Law - Gen, Ex, , Lev, Num, Deut
The Prophets - Josh, Judges, Sam, Kings, Isaih, Jer, Ezek, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
The Psalms - Psalms, Prov, Job, Song of Sol, Ruth, Lam, Eccl, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chron

This was/is the common division of books by the Jews that Jesus was speaking of in Luke 24:44.
You excluded 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith.
Jesus excluded the apocrapha in Luke 24:44 as inspired.
Where did he exclude them while including Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi?

Please cite the book, chapter and verse where he says this.
 
You excluded 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith.

Where did he exclude them while including Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi?

Please cite the book, chapter and verse where he says this.
I can’t. Just like I cannot cite where Jesus excludes the other 70 or so writings that Jews, Catholics and Protestants agree are not inspired.

The apocrapha is not Jewish canon and were and are not included in any of the 3 common division of the Jewish canon. If you don’t believe me, please research this for yourself.

We have the OT as part of our Bible because it points to Jesus. Jesus tells us what is the complete writings concerning Him and what must be fulfilled and the apocrapha is not mention in Luke 24:44.
 
PR, and what about the fact the apocrypha itself denies all notion of inspiration?

2 Maccabees 2:24-32 and 2 Maccabees 15:39-40 (I didn’t post the text here as they are long. I’ll let you read them for yourself.)

Compared to:

“Take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak. but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you” (Matthew 10:19-20).

“Now we have received. not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God: that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth” (1 Corinthians 2:12-13).

A stark contrast INDEED!!!
 
You are assuming Drblank that the canon mentioned in the New testament is the exact same canon mentioned today. Given that matters of the canon have never been (in both jewish circles and Christian circles) universal for any one particular group at any one time (except with the reformation catholic and protestant definition of the canon) that is an assumption yet to be proved. You say there was evidence that this was the canon Jesus used, what evidence can you possibly provide for that? We have a general idea based on what Jesus and the apostles quoted but beyond those quote sections of the scripture why should any other book be assumed or rejected? Your making a claim for something we really cannot know.

As for maccabees denying its own inspiration I do not see it.

2 Maccabees 23 all this, which has been set forth by Jason of Cyrene in five volumes, we shall attempt to condense into a single book.
[24] For considering the flood of numbers involved and the difficulty there is for those who wish to enter upon the narratives of history because of the mass of material,
[25] we have aimed to please those who wish to read, to make it easy for those who are inclined to memorize, and to profit all readers.
[26] For us who have undertaken the toil of abbreviating, it is no light matter but calls for sweat and loss of sleep,
[27] just as it is not easy for one who prepares a banquet and seeks the benefit of others. However, to secure the gratitude of many we will gladly endure the uncomfortable toil,
[28] leaving the responsibility for exact details to the compiler, while devoting our effort to arriving at the outlines of the condensation.
[29] For as the master builder of a new house must be concerned with the whole construction, while the one who undertakes its painting and decoration has to consider only what is suitable for its adornment, such in my judgment is the case with us.
[30] It is the duty of the original historian to occupy the ground and to discuss matters from every side and to take trouble with details,
[31] but the one who recasts the narrative should be allowed to strive for brevity of expression and to forego exhaustive treatment.
[32] At this point therefore let us begin our narrative, adding only so much to what has already been said; for it is foolish to lengthen the preface while cutting short the history itself.

This is simply the declaration of declaring history, not the denial of inspiration. Luke might as well be denied on such an account as he was writing from a historians perspective as well. What then should we make of Paul’s saying that he had received no commandment from the Lord? Is that not inspired? Do we cut that part out of Paul’s epistles? Absolutely not.
 
I can’t. Just like I cannot cite where Jesus excludes the other 70 or so writings that Jews, Catholics and Protestants agree are not inspired.

The apocrapha is not Jewish canon and were and are not included in any of the 3 common division of the Jewish canon. If you don’t believe me, please research this for yourself.

We have the OT as part of our Bible because it points to Jesus. Jesus tells us what is the complete writings concerning Him and what must be fulfilled and the apocrapha is not mention in Luke 24:44.
In all honesty, as a Lutheran, if I have to weigh what the Jews say is canonical, and what Catholics AND Orthodoxy say is canonical, it seems to me our balance scale ought to tip toward the historic Christian opinion, understanding that even the Fathers of the Church held varying opinions about them.

Jon
 
In all honesty, as a Lutheran, if I have to weigh what the Jews say is canonical, and what Catholics AND Orthodoxy say is canonical, it seems to me our balance scale ought to tip toward the historic Christian opinion, understanding that even the Fathers of the Church held varying opinions about them.

Jon
I can see your logic, but God has charged the Jewish people with the keeping of the OT. We do not overide Him.

There was much dispute over what was canocial with the Jews, but there was a core of 22/24 books that were accepted by most. And the fact that the Apocrapha was universally rejected as canon by the Jews is overwhelming to the argument.
 
You are assuming Drblank that the canon mentioned in the New testament is the exact same canon mentioned today. Given that matters of the canon have never been (in both jewish circles and Christian circles) universal for any one particular group at any one time (except with the reformation catholic and protestant definition of the canon) that is an assumption yet to be proved. You say there was evidence that this was the canon Jesus used, what evidence can you possibly provide for that? We have a general idea based on what Jesus and the apostles quoted but beyond those quote sections of the scripture why should any other book be assumed or rejected? Your making a claim for something we really cannot know.

As for maccabees denying its own inspiration I do not see it.

2 Maccabees 23 all this, which has been set forth by Jason of Cyrene in five volumes, we shall attempt to condense into a single book.
[24] For considering the flood of numbers involved and the difficulty there is for those who wish to enter upon the narratives of history because of the mass of material,
[25] we have aimed to please those who wish to read, to make it easy for those who are inclined to memorize, and to profit all readers.
[26] For us who have undertaken the toil of abbreviating, it is no light matter but calls for sweat and loss of sleep,
[27] just as it is not easy for one who prepares a banquet and seeks the benefit of others. However, to secure the gratitude of many we will gladly endure the uncomfortable toil,
[28] leaving the responsibility for exact details to the compiler, while devoting our effort to arriving at the outlines of the condensation.
[29] For as the master builder of a new house must be concerned with the whole construction, while the one who undertakes its painting and decoration has to consider only what is suitable for its adornment, such in my judgment is the case with us.
[30] It is the duty of the original historian to occupy the ground and to discuss matters from every side and to take trouble with details,
[31] but the one who recasts the narrative should be allowed to strive for brevity of expression and to forego exhaustive treatment.
[32] At this point therefore let us begin our narrative, adding only so much to what has already been said; for it is foolish to lengthen the preface while cutting short the history itself.

This is simply the declaration of declaring history, not the denial of inspiration. Luke might as well be denied on such an account as he was writing from a historians perspective as well. What then should we make of Paul’s saying that he had received no commandment from the Lord? Is that not inspired? Do we cut that part out of Paul’s epistles? Absolutely not.
Nowhere does Luke or Paul make any statements as to the lack of inspiration as the above in Maccabees. I can CLEARLY read that the author is admitting that the task of writing Maccabees was arduous (see 26 and 27). That is clearly not inspired. Please quote any passage where Paul or Luke state the same about their writings?
 
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