Protestant Canon

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And who was “charged” with the Deposit of Faith? Luther? Calvin?

If the Church got the canon wrong in the 4th century (I.e., the deuterocanonical books are uninspired), then why trust Her judgment on the NT canon?
The 4th century church didn’t get it wrong thanks to the guidance of the Lord. Canon was set at that time. The apocrapha wasn’t added as canon until Trent in response to the Reformation.

When you look at the criteria the early church used to determine what classified inspired works of God, none of the apocrapha met the entire standards as the 66 books.

I am not denying the books hold value, but only when used in the proper context (as they were used in the earlier church).
 
I have examined these passages from Maccabees as you recommended. However, like IP, I do not see this text denying its own inspiration. Does saying that something is arduous or difficult to write automatically make it uninspired? How does difficulty equal “not inspired”? In 2 Mac 2:27, the author states that he has a good come out of his uncomfortable toiling or writing of this text. These two particular verses (26 & 27) call to my mind an image of the Christian life. Suffering or picking up our crosses to follow Christ, but for a good… the promises of Christ. And, in knowing that we are called blessed if persecuted for holiness sake: for the reign of God is ours. Living as a faithful Christian is often an arduous task for me, but I know that my uncomfortable toiling and assiduous effort is worth His heavenly reward. For this reason, I cannot so easily equate difficulty with uninspired. Perhaps you can expound on your previous comment a bit to help me better understand how you drew this conclusion of arduous = not inspired. :confused:

Again, thank you for your responses and patience with my probing. 😃
Basically, the author concedes that it is an abridgement of another man‘s works and expresses concern as to whether a good job was done or not. This would not be the case had this book been truly inspired by God.

No where is the 66 books of the Bible are such statements made about God’s inspirational writings. Yes, life is hard as a Christian. But when God gives us a purposeful mission that is entirely His will to futher his kindom, it is a labor of love. We are not concerned that the work God guides us will or was substandard. What God accomplishes, is of the highest works. It is truly inspired, and a joy!!!
 
To be fair, non biblical writings were also found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. So this doesn’t really mean anything.
You beat me to the point. And only fragments were found of the apocrapha. And further, the Manual of Discipline found with the Dead Sea Scrolls rejected the apocrypha as inspired as well.
 
The 4th century church didn’t get it wrong thanks to the guidance of the Lord. Canon was set at that time. The apocrapha wasn’t added as canon until Trent in response to the Reformation.

When you look at the criteria the early church used to determine what classified inspired works of God, none of the apocrapha met the entire standards as the 66 books.

I am not denying the books hold value, but only when used in the proper context (as they were used in the earlier church).
The Church never added any apocryphal books. What you insultingly refer to as the “apocrypha”, is actually the “Deuterocanon”.

From www.fisheaters.com/:

Many non-Catholic Christians like to accuse Catholics of “adding” Books to the Bible at the 16th c. Council of Trent. This is absolutely, 100% false. This Council, among other things, simply affirmed the ancient accepted books in the face of Protestant tinkering. How could Luther have relegated the deuterocanonical books to an appendix if they hadn’t already been accepted in the first place? The Gutenberg Bible was printed in 1454 – and it included the deuterocanonical Books. How could the Church have “added” them at the Council of Trent that began 91 years later? I defy any Protestant to find a Bible in existence before 1525 that looked like a modern Protestant Bible! Most Protestant Bibles included the deuterocanonical Books until about 1815, when the British and Foreign Bible Society discontinued the practice! And note that Jews in other parts of the world who weren’t around to hear the Council of Jamnia’s decision in A.D. 100 include to this day those “extra” 7 books in their canon. Do some research on the canon used by Ethiopian Jewry

From catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm:

The first bible ever printed was the Gutenberg Bible, in the century BEFORE Luther started his Reformation. And the 7 books are indeed in that Bible. To see for yourself, click here.

Are they right? WAS the Deuterocanon in the Gutenberg Bible BEFORE the Council of Trent? Before the Reformation? :hmmm:
 
But Jesus DOES include Malachi when he says “the Prophets” in Luke 24:44.
And Jesus includes Sirach, Tobit, Judith and Baruch when he says “the Prophets” and Wisdom when he talks about “the psalms”.
The OT points to Jesus. The apocrapha does not.
The 7 books in the OT all point to Jesus, drblank. All of them do.
 
Nope, I defer to the authority of the Holy Spirit that guides me and helps me understand scripture.
Unless the Holy Spirit descended upon you in a Shekinah, then you have to defer to the spokesperson of the Holy Spirit (the CC) to tell you what is inspired and what is not.

There is no other way for you to know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired, except through the authority of the CC telling you it is inspired.
Psa 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Thank you God.
Amen!
I have provided historical evidence yet your ignore it or make excuses as to why we can’t believe the Jewish historians
You haven’t addressed my parallel in which a person erroneously concludes, “There are Christians here who profess that the Day of Worship is on Saturday! Therefore we conclude that all of Christendom worshiped on Saturdays in 2014!”

Just as a historian in the future would be quite mistaken in his conclusion, so, too, are you in your conclusion that all of Judaism believed in a single canon, based on the writings of Josephus.
 
The 4th century church didn’t get it wrong thanks to the guidance of the Lord. Canon was set at that time.
Excellent. Then you defer to the authority of the 4th century church.

Which means you are not a Bible Alone advocate, but get your truths from a church, and not from the Bible. At least, as it applies to the 27 book canon of the New Testament.

And, unless you believe that the 4th century church got it wrong regarding this 27 book canon of the NT, you believe that this 4th century church was prevented from erring and erroneously professing a book as inspired when it was not…meaning you believe in the charism of infallibility.
 
Excellent. Then you defer to the authority of the 4th century church.

Which means you are not a Bible Alone advocate, but get your truths from a church, and not from the Bible. At least, as it applies to the 27 book canon of the New Testament.

And, unless you believe that the 4th century church got it wrong regarding this 27 book canon of the NT, you believe that this 4th century church was prevented from erring and erroneously professing a book as inspired when it was not…meaning you believe in the charism of infallibility.
God got it correctly, not man. Plain and simple. You give credit where it is not due.
 
And Jesus includes Sirach, Tobit, Judith and Baruch when he says “the Prophets” and Wisdom when he talks about “the psalms”.
You don’t understand the structure of the OT. If you did, you would know that none of those books are considered part of any of the 3 divisions. This is common knowledge. I don’t know what else to write for you. 🤷
The 7 books in the OT all point to Jesus, drblank. All of them do.
So questionable material that is unbecoming God’s authorship points to Jesus?

Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife’s iniquity.
Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die.
Ecclesiasticus 22:3 It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.

This material absolutely does not point to Jesus.
 
God got it correctly, not man.
This is very Catholic, drblank!

It is indeed God who declared what the canon of the Bible is.

However, since God doesn’t appear to you in dreams and tell you what is inspired and what is not, you have to defer to God’s spokesman–the Catholic Church–to tell you what is theopneustos.
 
You don’t understand the structure of the OT. If you did, you would know that none of those books are considered part of any of the 3 divisions.
Of course they are. They have been for 2000 years. And even before–by the Jews. The authors are Jews and inspired by God.
So questionable material that is unbecoming God’s authorship points to Jesus?
You seem to believe that Job is inspired.

Does “My breath is offensive to my wife” seem to point to Jesus, drblank?

I guarantee you that I can take each and every book in your Bible and find a text that is “questionable” and “unbecoming”.

Here’s another one: “Saul went into a cave to relieve himself.”–from Samuel.

Do you believe that we need to remove 1 Samuel from the OT canon now?
 
What criteria were these, drblank?
Was the book written by a prophet of God?
Was the writer authenticated by miracles to confirm his message?
Does the book tell the truth about God, with no falsehood or contradiction?
Does the book evince a divine capacity to transform lives?
Was the book accepted as God’s Word by the people to whom it was first delivered?

The first is the most important and since the authors of the apocrapha are unknown, that alone disqualifies them as inspired of God.
 
Of course they are. They have been for 2000 years. And even before–by the Jews. The authors are Jews and inspired by God.

You seem to believe that Job is inspired.

Does “My breath is offensive to my wife” seem to point to Jesus, drblank?

I guarantee you that I can take each and every book in your Bible and find a text that is “questionable” and “unbecoming”.

Here’s another one: “Saul went into a cave to relieve himself.”–from Samuel.

Do you believe that we need to remove 1 Samuel from the OT canon now?
PR, Bless you for trying. 🙂

The bottom line is that apocrapha is not on the same level of writings as the rest of the Bible. Jesus did not include them in Luke 24:44. The complete set of works are not once quoted Jesus or the apostles. They are not written in Hebrew (big showstopper issue there) and never made their way into Jeruselum. They are not inspired as admitted by the authors, and the Catholic church did not include them in canon until Trent. I keep hearing the books were affirmed. So provide any evidence the church considered them **canon **prior to Trent.
 
This is very Catholic, drblank!

It is indeed God who declared what the canon of the Bible is.

However, since God doesn’t appear to you in dreams and tell you what is inspired and what is not, you have to defer to God’s spokesman–the Catholic Church–to tell you what is theopneustos.
“God got it right” is very Christian.

Your view that the Catholic church is God’s spokeman, is very Catholic.

The Holy Spirit that dwells in each true believer is the spokesman of God. And that is very Biblical.
 
However, since God doesn’t appear to you in dreams and tell you what is inspired and what is not, you have to defer to God’s spokesman–the Catholic Church–to tell you what is theopneustos.
I cannot say for certain that God has appeared to me in a dream, but God does speak the truth to me (and every other true believer) through the Holy Spirit and His living Word, the Holy Bible. So you see, I don’t need a legal temporal entity to tell me the Truth, when God speaks to every true believer directly.
 
Continuing on with Althaus in regards to the canon and interpretation, from ‘The Theology of Martin Luther’, by Paul Althaus:
Code:
    “The principal that Scripture interprets itself includes the rule that the Scripture is to be interpreted according to the simple literal sense.  One may depart from this principal only when the text itself compels a metaphorical interpretation.  In all so-called ‘spiritual’ interpretation, however, each one can read his own spirit into the words.” Althaus, “Theology”, pg. 77
According to Luther, Scripture should always be interpreted in It’s literal sense and that when you have to resort to a ‘spiritual interpretation’, one can end up reading one’s ‘own spirit into the words’. Again, Althaus, does not seem to have considered the (even slight) possibility that Luther might be guilt of exactly this. After all, Scripture make it very clear that Salvation is NOT by faith alone (James), and so since Luther really wanted Scripture to say SBFA, and it does NOT - then he had to resort to a ‘spiritual interpretation’. What could Luther say about James? He couldn’t say that it should be ‘interpreted according to the simple literal sense”, because that would shoot a gaping hole in his Salvational beliefs. His answer was to demote James from the list of the ‘main books’ of the NT.

I would suggest that Luther ‘read his own spirit into the words’ by ‘finding’ what he really needed to find in Scripture, but wasn’t there – Salvation By Faith Alone. Again, this does not seem to have occurred to Althaus, but I would bet that something similar has ‘occurred’ to all of those Orthodox or Roman Catholic theologians who were formerly Lutheran Theologians.

“Scripture loses its clear meaning in the process. In all its parts Scripture has one and the same simple sense. The self-interpretation of the Holy Scripture presupposes that the Scripture is clear in itself. The Roman assertion that the Scripture must be interpreted by the teaching office of the church is based on the presupposition that the Scripture is an obscure book. Luther had to disagree with this.” Althaus, “Theology”, pg. 77

Luther may have disagreed with the idea that the Scriptures need to be interpreted by ‘a teaching office’ but he agreed very much in the space of just a few years, in that he deemed himself to be THE ‘teaching office’. If Luther had really believed that Scripture was ‘clear in itself’, he would not have found it necessary to write his Prefaces in 1522 or to later act as if he were the most reliable teacher of God’s Absolute Truth in the world.

“Rather than seeking to found a Church or a kingdom of God on earth, he simply claimed the right to pronounce on doctrine, like a one-man version of the Sorbonne, the theological faculty of the University of Paris, which for centuries had seen itself as having a particular privilege in this regard. But he felt also compelled to do so by an authority higher than the Wittenberg university charter; he saw himself as God’s prophet in the last days on earth, spreading God’s good news.” Diarmaid MacCulloch, “The Reformation”, pg. 132

While it is true that the Sorbonne did have a rather high opinion of themselves in the Middle Ages, one can hardly imagine the Sorbonne taking responsibility upon their collective shoulders to create a canon within a canon, effectively demoting 4 books of the NT.

“He based his assertion that the Scripture is clear and unequivocal on the Scripture itself. In view of his doctrine of Scripture, that is the only possible way. Just as Scripture validates itself, so it alone can bear witness to its clarity…….The voice of experience does not consistently speak in favor of the clarity of Scripture.” Althaus, “Theology”, pg. 77-8

Here we have Althaus making a rather ‘un-Lutheran’ admission – that the voice of experience does not speak well for the ‘clarity of Scripture’. That seems obvious enough to most people. Althaus though states that ‘Scripture validates itself’. But does it ‘validate itself’ before or after 4 books of the NT are ‘demoted’ to a category from which doctrine is not to be determined? In other words, how can Scripture ‘validate itself’ if you don’t really have a set understanding of what (Christian) Scripture really is? Plus of course, where to you start? Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? How can Scripture validate itself or the canon criticize the canon, when you don’t have a place to begin. The answer – the beginning for Luther was obviously Salvation by Faith Alone. Once you establish that as a reference point, as we have been reading from various scholars, THEN you can begin to state separating the ‘main books’ from the ‘others’.

“For many men the Scripture is not clear at all; they either do not understand it at all or they understand it wrongly. The reason for this, Luther explains, is that the godless are held captive by Satan and that God allows even godly men to err for a while so that he may in this way show them that he alone to enlighten them.” Althaus, “Theology”, pg. 77-8

OK, so just exactly who (specifically and exactly) are these men for whom Scripture is not clear? Whether they do not understand it at all or they simply understand it wrongly, it ought to be pretty easy to ‘pick them out of a lineup’ - right? If it is the “Godless” men who don’t understand the Scriptures, then shouldn’t we be able to look at the actual actions and teachings of various men and determine whether they really understood Scripture?
 
PR, Bless you for trying. 🙂
I see that you are unable to refute the logic, drblank.

If you reject certain texts because they don’t sound very Biblical and holy, then you open yourself up to a whole bunch of texts in your Bible that you ought to throw out as well.

QED.
The bottom line is that apocrapha is not on the same level of writings as the rest of the Bible.
There is no such thing as “level of writings” that declares something to be inspired.

That’s a man-made tradition that you’ve been duped into believing. You never read in a single page of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, that there is some sort of way you can read a “level of writing” and determine whether it is inspired or not.

In fact, I say that “Saul went into a cave to relieve himself” is very, very low level writing.

And therefore, using your logic, you would have to say that 1 Samuel is not inspired.

So be careful about declaring some things to be a way to discern whether something is inspired or not…that is something some man just told you and you believed him, unfortunately.
Jesus did not include them in Luke 24:44.
Tobit, Sirach, Judith and Baruch are prophets. Wisdom is part of the psalmic literature.

Thus they are as included as Psalms, Samuel, Job and 1 and 2 Kings.
The complete set of works are not once quoted Jesus or the apostles.
Then you will have to throw out Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum–none of which are quoted by Jesus or the Apostles.

And you would have to include some pagan writings, which are quoted by St. Paul.

:eek:
They are not written in Hebrew (big showstopper issue there)
Can you quote the Bible verse that says that all writings must be written in Hebrew to be considered theopneustos?

And, did you know that the Pauline epistles were written in the same language as the Septuagint?

So you’d better be prepared to throw out anything in the NT–none of that was written in Hebrew either.
 
“God got it right” is very Christian.
Amen!
Your view that the Catholic church is God’s spokeman, is very Catholic.
Well, unless you can tell us how you know that the Epistle to the Hebrews is inspired some OTHER way, except through deferring to the authority of the CC, then you, too, believe that the CC is God’s spokesman.
The Holy Spirit that dwells in each true believer is the spokesman of God. And that is very Biblical.
How does one know he’s a “true believer”? Can you think you’re a “true believer” and actually be a faux believer?
 
I cannot say for certain that God has appeared to me in a dream, but God does speak the truth to me (and every other true believer) through the Holy Spirit and His living Word, the Holy Bible. So you see, I don’t need a legal temporal entity to tell me the Truth, when God speaks to every true believer directly.
So when did God appear to you and tell you that Hebrews is inspired and the Epistle of Barnabas is not inspired?

(Please note: this is a tongue in cheek question. I am** certain** that God has never appeared to you and presented the 27 book canon of the NT to you.)

You defer to the authority of the CC to tell you this.
 
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