Protestant Canon

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The Council of Trent not only affirmed that the 73 books are in fact inspired and have God as the author but decided that were also canonical or the rule of what the Church holds to be believed.
In regards to the OP and the protestant canon. Who authorized the Protestant canon if one exists? And what type of scrutiny was it given to measure or canonize the protestant bible books? We know the Catholic canonized bible books went through a measuring standard and such scrutiny that each book had to prove the apostles wrote them , Jesus taught from them, and that each letter of the apostles were proven to be used in the Mass liturgy, and prove their bishop who presented their apostolic letter to the council had to prove the bishop got it from a living apostle to include the writing could never conflict or contradict apostolic teaching handed down already in practice to include the sacred Traditions handed down to us from the apostles themselves. When a bible book passed the Catholic Church’s canon or measuring standard it proved to be faithfully used in the Mass of all liturgies universally by all bishops. I wonder if the Protestant canon ever proved itself through such a scrutiny and by who’s authority, if a protestant Canon of bible books ever exist?
 
Hi Novo,

The point is very simple. When Luther unleashed Sola Scriptura and it’s Evil Twin, the right to Private Interpretation (SS+PI), he insured that Christian doctrine was going to become much more diverse and much less important to some people. In fact, McGrath, one of the threads favorite Protestant Scholars chimes in here:

“The problems that Protestantism faced here were famously set out by John Dryden (1631 – 1700) in his satirical poem ‘Religio Laici’ (A Layperson’s Religion) (1682). Dryden here argued that the great Protestant emphasis on the Bible merely led to the proliferation of heresy, due to the absence of any universally acknowledged, authoritative interpreter. The attitude toward biblical interpretation found within Protestantism, Dryden argues, not merely leaves it powerless to resist heresy, but actually encourages the emergence of heresy, through Protestantism’s naïve idea that ordinary Christians will be led, inerrantly and inevitably, to orthodox as they browse the scriptural pages. The text was open to all; but what of the rule by which it was to be interpreted? Protestants agreed on and respected a common authority, but they had no shared notion of a meta-authority.” McGrath, “Heresy, A History of Defending the Truth”, pg. 52 (Another Excellent Protestant Book)

It seems that I have made this point within the last few posts, and there it is, McGrath agrees with me. I also remember (the great) Dave Armstrong writing once that he had counted up (I think it was) 17 different competing and conflicting Protestant versions of Salvation. By ‘different and competing’, what I mean is that ONLY ONE of them can be right, and of course, it could be that NONE of them are right (meaning in God’s Eyes of course). Of course each Protestant denomination is well aware of the fact that there are a lot of other denominations which conflict with it on Salvation. But my experience is that each denomination is pretty much invested in THEM being the one that is right and the ‘other’ Protestants ‘don’t get it’ and are just flat wrong.

Now, it’s not just Salvation in which Protestantism demonstrates an unbelievable ability to disagree. Let’s say that there are 25 different doctrines (like Baptism, the Eucharist, the ‘nature’ of the Church, women ministers, etc, etc.) I would suggest that Protestantism has developed (supposedly out of Scripture) AT LEAST 3 different conflicting positions. With Salvation being 17 different positions, I would guess that the average number of conflicting doctrines would be, let’s use 5. This means that there are a potential of 25 to the 5th power different doctrinal combinations within Protestantism. That’s 9,765,625 different doctrinal combinations. At this point, it’s not illogical to add a few more issues and a few more really oddball beliefs you potentially could have every Protestant on earth having a different answer in total on the 25 doctrines. So, yes, I would say that none of the Protestant denominations agree on all of the doctrinal issues, except of course their opposition to the Catholic Church. When they became disconnected from the historic Church, they insured that their doctrinal beliefs would be developed by man. Of course, all Protestants agree with this, except that it is not them but those ‘other Protestants’ whose doctrinal beliefs were developed by man.

Where did Luther think that Sola Scriptura + Private Interpretation was going to lead?

“As we noted earlier, Protestantism was rapidly branded as a heresy by the Catholic Church. Protestants responded with indignation, retorting that they had recovered orthodoxy from its medieval distoritions. What was Protestantism if not the recovery of the orthodox faith of the early church? Yet Catholics had little difficulty in arguing that, while Protestantism might be perfectly capable of recovering earlier biblical interpretations, it lacked the means to determine whether what it had retrieved was orthodox or heterodox. And lacking any such capacity to discriminate such interpretations, Protestant were obliged to repeat the judgments of the Catholic Church on these matters. In turn, Protestants argued that, since they were committed to restoring the authentic teaching of the early church, this naturally extended to the church’s views on orthodoxy and heresy…….The problem is that ‘heresy’ is ultimately a teaching judged unacceptable by the entire church.” McGrath, “Heresy”, pg. 213-5

As we have learned, we need to add the canon of the Bible. To my knowledge, only the Lutherans have a ‘canon within the canon’ of the NT, whereby they put the 4 of the 27 books into two different classes and use those classes differently in terms of confirming doctrines.

So the problem is that people are fallen human beings, and that is exactly why Christ established His Church on this earth and sends the Holy Spirit to guide the Church and NOT individuals such that they correctly understand His Doctrines. Of course, Protestants can ‘deny’ this, but then it is the actual history of Protestant’s doctrinal confusion which proves that they misuse Scripture in the development of an astonishing variety of doctrinal positions.

Novo, as for your ‘uncertainty’ that James was written by an Apostle – I claim that it is almost universally accepted today that James was written by the Apostle James. I would like to see something more substantial than your opinion. Can you post from some reputable Scholar who doubts it? And BTW, let’s throw in Revelation and Jude while we are at it. Look, I recognize that you have to stick up for Luther. I get that. The thing that I have always found telling though is the lengths to which people feel they have to go to do so.

God Bless You Novo, Topper
 
As a Lutheran, my answer would be that I’ve always been catholic ;); but to your point, I’ve never professed anything other than Confessional Lutheranism. Which technically classifies me a material heretic according to EWTN and most Roman Catholics apologists that I’ve ever read, regardless of whether the term is avoided in modern ecumenical dialogue for more inviting language.

I’d be happy to take this to a new thread; I don’t care for derailments.
Steido, you are not a heretic. Nope.
 
In 1974 LCMS Pastor Elmer J. Moeller wrote an amazingly honest assessment of the practical problems associated with the Lutheran position on the New Testament canon. While not (of course) pinning the responsibility for these problems directly on Luther, he certainly did name Luther as being the genesis of Lutheranism’s concept of the antilegomena.

Excerpts from Moeller’s “Missouri’s Critical Issue” (taken from The Christian News, Oct. 14, 1974) are in black. My comments intersperced within Moeller’s text will be in blue.

“In the doctrinal conflict within The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, beneath the charges and counter-charges, beneath the cash of two admittedly district theologies, is there any single issue which can be Isolated as the crucial one? The writer, a clergyman of The Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, believes there is, and will attempt to demonstrate it. Furthermore, he believes that the same issue exists for every evangelical, conservative Christian individual, congregation, and church body.

In formalized statements of faith the historical Evangelical Lutheran Church, and the modern Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, have never articulated a complete doctrine of Scripture as set forth in Scripture. This lack has permitted, as will be demonstrated, an incomplete statement with a frequently-occurring erroneous, extra-Scriptural and therefore anti-Scriptural, doctrinal addition. Consequently the Missouri Synod now experiences the tragic division in its midst. “

As I have been stating, I find it very hard to believe that Lutherans have not actually set a canon. According to Moeller, this has led to a ‘tragic division in its (the LCMS) midst’.

“In the New Testament church of the third and fourth centuries certain books were not accepted in some geographical areas as being God’s New Testament Word because here was not unanimous evidence from previous generations that the book had been written by an apostle.

Hebrews was accepted in the Eastern churches as the product of Paul; it was not considered Paul’s epistle in the West and was not accepted there. John’s Apocalypse was accepted in the West as from the hand of John the Apostle; in the East the author was not so identified and the book was not accepted. The apostolic authorship of James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude was similarly doubted.

Meanwhile, the Mediterranean world in the fourth century, under the blessing of a Roman government that sponsored Christianity, proved to be a fertile field for the growth of a unified church. The councils and church leaders agreed on canonical” books, in the practice accepting the evidence “for” as outweighing the objections “against” authorship by apostles. The subsequent lists of New Testament books carried Hebrews by Paul, James by James the Less, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John and the Apocalypse by John the Apostle and Evangelist, and Jude by the Apostle Jude.

The “disputed” character of these books surfaced at the time of the Reformation. Luther, for instance, placed Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Apocalypse at the end of his New Testament, as books from which one did not draw doctrine. He felt that certain of their teachings could not have come from apostles, since some teachings disagreed, he thought, with what e.g. Paul had written in his undisputed letters. (The apocryphal books of the Old Testament, the surplus of the Alexandrian canon as compared to the Palestinian canon, were likewise not to be considered canonical. In general, when Lutheran teachings were later delineated, the antilegomena books were not used to establish doctrine in the church. In the Missouri Synod up through the 20’s this same attitude and approach prevailed.”

Moeller mentions 7 books that were doubted by some in the ancient Church. Yet Luther, (and now subsequently Lutheranism) include only four books in the antilegomena, “books from which one did not draw doctrine.”

Why were the other three doubted (2 Peter, 2 & 3 John) not incorporated into the antilegomena by either Luther or the Lutherans?

Furthermore, Moeller indicates that in the 1920’s the LCMS changed its approach to the antilegomena. From what to what? Is the LCMS done changing it approach to what is and what it not Scripture yet? Or are there more changes to come? One would think that after 1900 years, Christianity would sort of ‘settled down’ and quit changing the canon of Scripture and how we are to deem the canonicity of the 27 books that most Christians consider to be the NT. But then, to Lutherans, the NT is only ‘relatively closed’.

“It is interesting to note that the German Bible available to homes in the Missouri Synod in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, the Altenburger Bibel (Concordia Publishing House), contained Luther’s introductions to the New Testament books, giving his views about Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. The laymen therefore were acquainted with the view of Scriptures which associated inspired New Testament authority with authorship by apostles.”

This floored me. From my reading, I was under the impression that Luther’s disrespectful comments about whole books of the Bible had been eliminated from the Bible shortly after his death (by Christians who revere Scripture). It is astonishing that those comments were printed in American Bibles as late as the last century. What in the world were those LCMS leaders thinking? Moeller will explain in part two.
 
Part 2:

“One notes what had happened. From areas of scholarship both outside confessing Christianity and within it, conclusion of critical scholarship were making themselves felt and were being taken for granted. “A majority of scholars” concluded that Paul did not write Ephesians or the Pastorals, that Matthew did not write the canonical Greek Matthew, etc. But how can one be really a “scientific” Bible scholar and still uphold the authority of Scripture within the confessional context of membership in a conservative Lutheran church body’? Answer: by simply holding to an inspired, inerrant Bible, which in the New Testament is inspired regardless of who wrote the individual books.”

So, it is by holding to an ‘inspired, inerrant Bible’ that one can uphold the authority of Scripture.

“Meanwhile the Missouri Synod scholar and clergyman who has arrived at this same point in his “scholarly” Biblical views is still bound by his oath of office and by the confessional paragraph of his church’s constitution to the Inspired characters and complete authority of the Scriptures. How to solve the problem now? Answer: an inspired erring Scripture, which is however authoritative and “inerrant” in achieving its purpose; namely, to make wise unto salvation. The Holy Spirit supposedly leads one to believe the “Gospel,” and one uses historical-critical scholarship to pick out of the Scripture that which the Holy Spirit intends one to believe as content of the Gospel. It comes as no surprise, then, that it becomes difficult and finally sometimes impossible for such a Missouri Synod Lutheran to uphold the distinctive Scriptural doctrines of Lutheranism; for obviously “the Holy Spirit” has supposedly led all sorts of scholars to all sorts of other conclusions as to what is the Gospel and as to what Scripture clearly states.”

Moeller points out that the ‘solution’ to the problem of the Lutheran concept of the canon is a Scripture that is ‘an inspired erring Scripture’, which is however authoritative and ‘inerrant’. Maybe you have to be a Lutheran to understand how something can be ‘erring’ while at the same time being ‘authoritative and inerrant’. (I think we need to remember that Luther called reason the ‘Devil’s whore’.)

What is shocking is to read a statement of an LCMS Pastor who actually admits that it is sometimes impossible to uphold the distinctive Scriptural doctrines of Lutheranism, mentioning that scholars have supposedly been led (by the Holy Spirit) to non-Lutheran conclusions. Is Moeller suggesting that while Lutheran Scholars are led by the Holy Spirit to correctly identify what Scripture teaches, but that the ‘other’s Scholars are NOT led by the Spirit, and as such, don’t get it ‘right’? If anyone has any doubts about Moeller’s position, his final section should make it very clear.

“One final thing. While it is in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod that the battle is being fought, no Christian is free from its implications. Either the reader must place himself completely under the authority of a New Testament that was written or commended by apostles, and of an Old Testament that was approved by the testimony of such a New Testament, both Old and New Testaments being the inspired and utterly trustworthy Word of God. or, he must begin to choose on the basis of his own scholarship or that of others such truths as he thinks the Holy Spirit (is there really a Holy Spirit, or is He the creation of the second century Christian community?) is leading him to believe. There is no middle ground of “substantial trustworthiness of Scripture” with an admixture of untrustworthy elements. Who decides where the trustworthiness ends? Who can tell for sure what is the Christian Gospel, if the Scriptures are actually made up of these kind of untrustworthy books? Does the “Gospel” really come to us from God, or from man?

A theology which thus leaves seekers after God and His Truth hanging in mid-air does not have what it takes to give modern man something solid to live and die by. What the Christian church had in the first place is the only resource available to fallen man to answer the human need with truth and hope.”

By arbitrarily and subjectively ‘demoting’ 4 books of the NT to a ‘class’ which is “not used to establish doctrine in the church”, the Lutheran Church set itself up for the problems which Moeller so astutely states. Of course I have been saying much the same thing, but then what do us Catholics know about Lutheranism? Better it be heard from an LCMS Pastor.

My guess is that, in response to this post and Moeller’s comments, there will be a lot of personal opinions stated AS IF they are plain facts, and that I will draw a fair amount of criticism for my comments than Moeller will for his.

If anyone is interested in reading the whole article, it can be found at the following web address and is the last article in the chain of several articles on the same subject.
scribd.com/doc/106130276/Luther-and-James-Did-Luther-Use-Historical-Critical-Method-Bartling
  • File from WELSNET (Wisconsin Ev. Lutheran Synod) BBS: (414)475-7514
 
In 1974 LCMS Pastor Elmer J. Moeller wrote an amazingly honest assessment of the practical problems associated with the Lutheran position on the New Testament canon. While not (of course) pinning the responsibility for these problems directly on Luther, he certainly did name Luther as being the genesis of Lutheranism’s concept of the antilegomena.

Excerpts from Moeller’s “Missouri’s Critical Issue” (taken from The Christian News, Oct. 14, 1974) are in black. My comments intersperced within Moeller’s text will be in blue.

“In the doctrinal conflict within The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, beneath the charges and counter-charges, beneath the cash of two admittedly district theologies, is there any single issue which can be Isolated as the crucial one? The writer, a clergyman of The Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, believes there is, and will attempt to demonstrate it. Furthermore, he believes that the same issue exists for every evangelical, conservative Christian individual, congregation, and church body.

In formalized statements of faith the historical Evangelical Lutheran Church, and the modern Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, have never articulated a complete doctrine of Scripture as set forth in Scripture. This lack has permitted, as will be demonstrated, an incomplete statement with a frequently-occurring erroneous, extra-Scriptural and therefore anti-Scriptural, doctrinal addition. Consequently the Missouri Synod now experiences the tragic division in its midst. “

As I have been stating, I find it very hard to believe that Lutherans have not actually set a canon. According to Moeller, this has led to a ‘tragic division in its (the LCMS) midst’.

“In the New Testament church of the third and fourth centuries certain books were not accepted in some geographical areas as being God’s New Testament Word because here was not unanimous evidence from previous generations that the book had been written by an apostle.

Hebrews was accepted in the Eastern churches as the product of Paul; it was not considered Paul’s epistle in the West and was not accepted there. John’s Apocalypse was accepted in the West as from the hand of John the Apostle; in the East the author was not so identified and the book was not accepted. The apostolic authorship of James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude was similarly doubted.

Meanwhile, the Mediterranean world in the fourth century, under the blessing of a Roman government that sponsored Christianity, proved to be a fertile field for the growth of a unified church. The councils and church leaders agreed on canonical” books, in the practice accepting the evidence “for” as outweighing the objections “against” authorship by apostles. The subsequent lists of New Testament books carried Hebrews by Paul, James by James the Less, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John and the Apocalypse by John the Apostle and Evangelist, and Jude by the Apostle Jude.

The “disputed” character of these books surfaced at the time of the Reformation. Luther, for instance, placed Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Apocalypse at the end of his New Testament, as books from which one did not draw doctrine. He felt that certain of their teachings could not have come from apostles, since some teachings disagreed, he thought, with what e.g. Paul had written in his undisputed letters. (The apocryphal books of the Old Testament, the surplus of the Alexandrian canon as compared to the Palestinian canon, were likewise not to be considered canonical. In general, when Lutheran teachings were later delineated, the antilegomena books were not used to establish doctrine in the church. In the Missouri Synod up through the 20’s this same attitude and approach prevailed.”

Moeller mentions 7 books that were doubted by some in the ancient Church. Yet Luther, (and now subsequently Lutheranism) include only four books in the antilegomena, “books from which one did not draw doctrine.”

Why were the other three doubted (2 Peter, 2 & 3 John) not incorporated into the antilegomena by either Luther or the Lutherans?

Furthermore, Moeller indicates that in the 1920’s the LCMS changed its approach to the antilegomena. From what to what? Is the LCMS done changing it approach to what is and what it not Scripture yet? Or are there more changes to come? One would think that after 1900 years, Christianity would sort of ‘settled down’ and quit changing the canon of Scripture and how we are to deem the canonicity of the 27 books that most Christians consider to be the NT. But then, to Lutherans, the NT is only ‘relatively closed’.

“It is interesting to note that the German Bible available to homes in the Missouri Synod in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, the Altenburger Bibel (Concordia Publishing House), contained Luther’s introductions to the New Testament books, giving his views about Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. The laymen therefore were acquainted with the view of Scriptures which associated inspired New Testament authority with authorship by apostles.”

This floored me. From my reading, I was under the impression that Luther’s disrespectful comments about whole books of the Bible had been eliminated from the Bible shortly after his death (by Christians who revere Scripture). It is astonishing that those comments were printed in American Bibles as late as the last century. What in the world were those LCMS leaders thinking? Moeller will explain in part two.
Why should Luther’s respectful opinions, even if one disagrees with them, be eliminated?
You should be thrilled that Lutherans continue to have the Pre-Trent catholic liberty to respectfully and learnedly challenge the canon, as Luther did in his day. Else you would not have been able to post Pastor Moeller’s opinion.

Jon
 
Why should Luther’s respectful opinions, even if one disagrees with them, be eliminated?
You should be thrilled that Lutherans continue to have the Pre-Trent catholic liberty to respectfully and learnedly challenge the canon, as Luther did in his day. Else you would not have been able to post Pastor Moeller’s opinion.

Jon
Hi Jon,

Normally I say thank for your response, but in this case, I have to say that I am pretty surprised that you chose not to comment on LCMS Pastor Moeller’s article.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
 
Hi Jon,

Normally I say thank for your response, but in this case, I have to say that I am pretty surprised that you chose not to comment on LCMS Pastor Moeller’s article.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
I respect his opinion, and in some ways agree

Jon
 
I respect his opinion, and in some ways agree

Jon
Hi Jon,

You certainly are a tease, :), which of course forces me to ask which parts you agree with and which you don’t.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
 
Hi Jon,

You certainly are a tease, :), which of course forces me to ask which parts you agree with and which you don’t.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
I believe greater deference could be given to all of the disputed books, including the DC’s. When something is part of the tradition of both east and west, I believe it behooves us to strongly consider it. The position of Rome by itself, or the EO by itself, is not as strong as when they agree.

Jon
 
I believe greater deference could be given to all of the disputed books, including the DC’s. When something is part of the tradition of both east and west, I believe it behooves us to strongly consider it. The position of Rome by itself, or the EO by itself, is not as strong as when they agree.

Jon
That being the case, it should give you pause that the RCC and the EO agree on probably more than 95% of what they both disagree with all of Protestantism. As an example, does the position of the RCC and the EO (and the whole of the Early Church for that matter) cause you to ‘wonder’ about Sola Scriptura in ANY of it’s seemingly dozens of competing and conflicting definitions?

In a similar manner to your comment, I could suggest that the Lutheran position would be more credible if it were coming from a position of unity rather than one of numerous competing Lutheran denominations. In this same vein, it must be noted that that the whole of Lutheranism including all of the competing factions represents 3% of Christianity whereas the EOC is roughly 18% and the RCC is 51%.

If I remember correctly, Luther, early in his ‘career’, once said that if the world were exposed to his (pure) gospel for only two years, the whole world would become Lutheran. That didn’t work out all that well for him and in fact, confessional Lutheranism continues to shrink as a percentage of the whole at a shocking pace.

BTW, what did you think about Moeller’s comment that:

“Who can for sure what is the Christian Gospel, if the Scriptures are actually made up of these kinds of untrustworthy book?..A theology which thus leaves seekers after God and His Truth hanging in mid air does not have what it takes to give modern man something solid to live and die by.”

BTW, when you say 'give greater deference" to the disputed books, are you suggesting that they be considered inspired, or that they be used to establish doctrine, or what?
 
That being the case, it should give you pause that the RCC and the EO agree on probably more than 95% of what they both disagree with all of Protestantism.
Percentage is speculatory at best, since (besides there being no way to quantify such a claim) protestantism isn’t one church - the RCC and EO churches would separately disagree with separate protestant churches separately (not to mention with each other) in separate degrees.
As an example, does the position of the RCC and the EO (and the whole of the Early Church for that matter) cause you to ‘wonder’ about Sola Scriptura in ANY of it’s seemingly dozens of competing and conflicting definitions?
We would obviously disagree with you that the Early Church (beyond the Apostles) didn’t rely on Holy Scripture. If the Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogues teach us anything, it’s that the EO isn’t opposed to Sola Scriptura, as Lutherans understand and practice it.
  1. Regarding the relation of scripture and Tradition, for centuries there seemed to have been a deep difference between Orthodox and Lutheran teaching. Orthodox hear with satisfaction the affirmation of the Lutheran theologians that the formula “sola scriptura” was always intended to point to God’s revelation, God’s saving act through Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, and therefore to the holy Tradition of the church, as expressed in this paper, against human traditions that darken the authentic teaching in the church.
    helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html
In a similar manner to your comment, I could suggest that the Lutheran position would be more credible if it were coming from a position of unity rather than one of numerous competing Lutheran denominations. In this same vein, it must be noted that that the whole of Lutheranism including all of the competing factions represents 3% of Christianity whereas the EOC is roughly 18% and the RCC is 51%.
Confessional Lutheranism is united on the principle of Sola Scriptura.
If I remember correctly, Luther, early in his ‘career’, once said that if the world were exposed to his (pure) gospel for only two years, the whole world would become Lutheran. That didn’t work out all that well for him and in fact, confessional Lutheranism continues to shrink as a percentage of the whole at a shocking pace.
False. Confessional Lutheranism is losing no more Christians to agnosticism than any other branch of Christianity, and I’d making great strides in bringing the developing world the Gospel. In fact, Confessional Lutheranism just grew by about 6.3-7.0 million:
blogs.lcms.org/2014/ethiopian-church-lcms-agree
 
Percentage is speculatory at best, since (besides there being no way to quantify such a claim) protestantism isn’t one church - the RCC and EO churches would separately disagree with separate protestant churches separately (not to mention with each other) in separate degrees.

We would obviously disagree with you that the Early Church (beyond the Apostles) didn’t rely on Holy Scripture. If the Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogues teach us anything, it’s that the EO isn’t opposed to Sola Scriptura, as Lutherans understand and practice it.

Confessional Lutheranism is united on the principle of Sola Scriptura.
By dialogues are you referring to general dialogues or the specific dialogues in the 16th century by the Lutheran Theologians and Patriarch Jermiah?

Having just read the discussion between Patriarch Jeremiah II and the Lutheran Theologians I can’t see the orthodox agreeing with the position of the Lutherans in regards to sola scripture. Correct me if I am mistaken but for the lutheran the ultimate object by which we judge is scripture alone, if something contradicts scripture (rather if something contradicts a perception of scripture) it must not be trusted even if, as the Blessed patriarch called them “divine luminaries” said something, we must prefer scripture over and above the traditions of men. This was in the end which broke the theological discussion, the lutheran scholars were not convinced by the extensive use of quotations from the partistics and the Patriarch was not convinced by their arguments from scripture alone. I think the same could be said today.
 
=Topper17;11647721]That being the case, it should give you pause that the RCC and the EO agree on probably more than 95% of what they both disagree with all of Protestantism. As an example, does the position of the RCC and the EO (and the whole of the Early Church for that matter) cause you to ‘wonder’ about Sola Scriptura in ANY of it’s seemingly dozens of competing and conflicting definitions?
It always gives me pause, when I consider differences my communion might have in these regards. Remembering that sola scriptura has only one definition, found in the Formula of Concord, for Lutherans, I see it as only necessary so long as the understanding of Tradition is held in contradictory ways by the EO and the CC. Were that solved, were the EO and CC end their schism with each other, then it seems SS would not be needed, but that’s a personal view, not necessarily a Lutheran view.
In a similar manner to your comment, I could suggest that the Lutheran position would be more credible if it were coming from a position of unity rather than one of numerous competing Lutheran denominations.
I actually agree with this. Where some Lutheran synods have moved away from the Confessions in areas such as ordination, it is disturbing.
BTW, what did you think about Moeller’s comment that:
“Who can for sure what is the Christian Gospel, if the Scriptures are actually made up of these kinds of untrustworthy book?..A theology which thus leaves seekers after God and His Truth hanging in mid air does not have what it takes to give modern man something solid to live and die by.”
I would have to see the broader context, but on first blush, his words are something to consider.
BTW, when you say 'give greater deference" to the disputed books, are you suggesting that they be considered inspired, or that they be used to establish doctrine, or what?
I would have no problem with them being considered as canonical, in the same sense as the other books.

Jon
 
If I remember correctly, Luther, early in his ‘career’, once said that if the world were exposed to his (pure) gospel for only two years, the whole world would become Lutheran. That didn’t work out all that well for him and in fact, confessional Lutheranism continues to shrink as a percentage of the whole at a shocking pace.
This sounds like an interesting quote. Would you mind posting the source?
 
In reading David Chidester’s book Christianity on pg. 313, he says that according to Luther that “The principles sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fidea-only according to Scripture” marked the divide between protestants and Catholic’s. Also according to Martin Luther, for example there was only one religion- a biblical faith that led to salvation through divine grace- which was in opposition to all other forms of false belief and worship. It was also stated that Martin Luther claimed that instead of faith they relied on human reason, and argued that therefore fell from grace because" reason never finds the true God, but finds the devil or its own concept of God, ruled by the devil. Luther saw Jews, Muslims, and Catholic’s as the opposite of religion. At best they were the result of human invention, and worse they were in the service of the devil. Calvin believed it seems that Catholic’s were no different than pagans or what he called paganopapism of the Catholic church and was ignorant, dangerous, and demonic superstition and like Luther termed the Catholic Church not as religion but as the absence of religion. Seems to me to be some very harsh words which sadly to this day and age so many think and believe to be true among the many different and various denomination within the Protestant sects.

I understand that not every Protestant may believe this as Luther and Calvin thought but many do, which to my way of thinking, this still causes ill will among Catholic’s between some of the protestant sects.
 
In reading David Chidester’s book Christianity on pg. 313, he says that according to Luther that “The principles sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fidea-only according to Scripture” marked the divide between protestants and Catholic’s. Also according to Martin Luther, for example there was only one religion- a biblical faith that led to salvation through divine grace- which was in opposition to all other forms of false belief and worship. It was also stated that Martin Luther claimed that instead of faith they relied on human reason, and argued that therefore fell from grace because" reason never finds the true God, but finds the devil or its own concept of God, ruled by the devil. Luther saw Jews, Muslims, and Catholic’s as the opposite of religion. At best they were the result of human invention, and worse they were in the service of the devil. Calvin believed it seems that Catholic’s were no different than pagans or what he called paganopapism of the Catholic church and was ignorant, dangerous, and demonic superstition and like Luther termed the Catholic Church not as religion but as the absence of religion. Seems to me to be some very harsh words which sadly to this day and age so many think and believe to be true among the many different and various denomination within the Protestant sects.
If I were to pick a few different popes and continually highlight their sins, faults, and failures, oddities, etc. in the same way some folks here do with Luther, I have a strong suspicion I would be given a number of infractions and then probably banned.
 
If I were to pick a few different popes and continually highlight their sins, faults, and failures, oddities, etc. in the same way some folks here do with Luther, I have a strong suspicion I would be given a number of infractions and then probably banned.
That’s kinda what I’ve been thinking. 🤷
 
If I were to pick a few different popes and continually highlight their sins, faults, and failures, oddities, etc. in the same way some folks here do with Luther, I have a strong suspicion I would be given a number of infractions and then probably banned.
Agreed. :sad_yes:

Sometimes CAF gives me hope for the future of Christendom. This thread is not one of those times.
 
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