Protestant-Catholic dialogue on Mary, Saints, Church authority, etc

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Lisa4Catholics:
…if they are members of the Body of Christ, then they are alive in Him!
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Right, and still part of the Body of Christ. This is why, in Christ, we can have communion with them because they surround us as “a cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1), and because they are part of the Body of Christ, they share in Christ’s priestly intercessory role.

God bless,
TTM
 
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Lorarose:
Like you said…this is your “understanding” but exactly what is your “understanding” based on?
Exactly where does it say in scripture that the job of praying is reserved only for earthly saints?
Where does it say in scripture that heavenly saints are only collecting these same prayers while they themselves are incapable of intecessory prayer?
Why would they be capable of collecting prayer while incapable of praying?
This makes absolutely no sense to me!

Certainly the heavenly saints are worshipping God and praising God - but exactly where does it specify that is ALL they are doing?
You call them “servants” What if God wished for them to serve him through prayer?
Is it really that unthinkable that they would be aware of earthly affairs - or at the very least remember those they had left behind?
What exactly is stopping them from approching the Lord and saying…“Dear Father could you please give my children strength to go on without me?” or “Dear Jesus - could you please give my cousin a little more time on earth - he just might discover You if given more time?”

Do protestant really restrain themselves from talking to their dead loved ones? Do they really have trouble saying to their dead parents “I’m struggling here - please put in a good word for me with the Big Guy”?

It is my understanding that we are all family - and family members help each other.
I see absolutely no proof that souls in heaven are completely detached from us, and I know from experience that when I personally ask my daughter to pray for me - or a saint - I have received confirmation many times.

Again, I’m left wondering…if protestant get so easily agitated by this catholic practice because they claim to go “straight to Jesus” - then why do they seek prayers from anyone else? Why do they pray for others?
This appears inconsistent to me.
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Hi Lora, we both agree that it makes no sense to you and to me.My comments as well as yours are assumptions for neither of us can prove it because we are not in heaven.If the saints were praying it would have said it but it doesnt.Why not? Also we really dont know if our loved ones are in heaven,we hope that they are but only God knows who is saved and who is not.Your personal experiences have no bearing for they are private revelation. We as christian seek the help [intercession] of our brothers and sisters because we know for a fact that our prayers are heard and brought forward into the throne room by the Heavenly Saints as outlined in the book or revelation ch5 vs 8. :confused: God Bless
 
Christ has rissen, Christ has ears. Does your arm know what your ear has heard? Does your heart? Each part of your body has a function and each part serves the whole. The saints ears are our Lords. We are one not many. Praise be to God…
 
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Beaver:
Christ has rissen, Christ has ears. Does your arm know what your ear has heard? Does your heart? Each part of your body has a function and each part serves the whole. The saints ears are our Lords. We are one not many. Praise be to God…
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Hi Beaver. So let us pray to the Lord Jesus Christ for we know for sure that He hears our prayers. 👍 God Bless.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi Lora, we both agree that it makes no sense to you and to me.My comments as well as yours are assumptions for neither of us can prove it because we are not in heaven.If the saints were praying it would have said it but it doesnt.Why not? Also we really dont know if our loved ones are in heaven,we hope that they are but only God knows who is saved and who is not.Your personal experiences have no bearing for they are private revelation. We as christian seek the help [intercession] of our brothers and sisters because we know for a fact that our prayers are heard and brought forward into the throne room by the Heavenly Saints as outlined in the book or revelation ch5 vs 8. :confused: God Bless
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Not everything,was written down in the Bible,that wasw stated also in the Bible.It is sad that you feel Our Lord would be offended that we would ask a Saint to pray for us, because by his grace they became a Saint and therefore a gift from God to us,lets not ignore his gifts under the precepts of not offending the giver of gifts.God Bless
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Not everything,was written down in the Bible,that wasw stated also in the Bible.It is sad that you feel Our Lord would be offended that we would ask a Saint to pray for us, because by his grace they became a Saint and therefore a gift from God to us,lets not ignore his gifts under the precepts of not offending the giver of gifts.God Bless
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Hi ,Lisa ,Im not offended that you pray to the Heavenly Saints its just That I really dont know what is happenning in heaven and neither does anyone else…Here on Earth I am confidant that we can pray with and for each other and that our Lord hears our prayers because we direct those prayers to Him.Ill take the sure shot. 👍 God Bless
 
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TTM:
This rock is all of the prophets and all of the apostles. Not a solitary Peter.
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This is an issue concerning the authority of the Church. We Catholics believe that Jesus established his Church under the Chief Shepherd, Peter. Again, Jesus himself is the Good Shepherd, but Peter shares in Jesus’ Shepherd-ship. Jesus, the Davidiac King, establishes in Peter a Prime Ministerial role. Again, the type for Peter can be found for this in Eli’akim:

Isiah 22:16-22
"Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: 16 What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 Behold, the LORD will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house. 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli’akim the son of Hilki’ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”

Here, two things are clear. The Key of the house of David signifies both the authority given to him within the Kingdom, and also the succession of office. With this, he is given the authority to bind and loose - rabbinic term signifying the authority to forbid and permit; to give the final word. In the same way, the Kingdom of Heaven has its Heavenly King, Jesus, who bestows his authority on his Earthly representative, Peter and his successors, who have been given the authority to give the final word.

This is only possible because of the Holy Spirit’s guidance. So, as you see, I am not denying Holy Spirit’s capability (that is a presumption on your part), but I am saying that the authority rests upon Peter’s successors and those in communion with him. It only makes sense. Through this unity, Christians - for 1500 years - affirmed, for example, the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Now, there are well over 1000 (that is the most conservative estimate I could make) denominations, who disagree on such a fundamental doctrine. They all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. It seems clear to me that the Holy Spirit can not guide them in that particular way
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, because that particular charism rests upon Peter, the Apostles, and their successors.

Hope this helps. God bless,
TTMHi TTM
No it is not clear as you suggest.
Isaih22:22 The key of the house of David
Matthew 16:19 " And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…binding and loosening."
Rev 3:7 “…He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.”
No Eliakim is of Jesus; the key of David and opens and shuts
Peter has the keys of heaven and binds and loosens.
You are in error.
See the part I have bold typed.
IT is a fact they are where they are. You are thus denying that the Holy Spirit wants/allows them to be there. See you are denying His capability. You in your wisdom, and from your teachings, think that they are somewhere he doesnt want them. You are saying they are not on their journey. I ask you, How do you know this? Where did your wisdom come to make such a claim? I dont know, but I am very sure that He is in control, completely. Christ has complete authority in all things except times and seasons. So be patient TTM and you will see His hand moving at the time that wisdom says to move.Dont think He can be ignored.
Walk in love TTM
May Chirst grow in your heart
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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TTM:
Hi edwinG, everybody,

Here’s a brief background to the thread. edwinG is a Protestant Christian, who has objections to Marian devotion, praying to the Saints, the authority of the Church, etc. Discussion on these matters did not suit the previous thread (“Praises to the Holy Spirit!!! Please tell your story!”, and before this, “Power of the Rosary—is this True?”), so a new thread was created here for that purpose. The quotes are from the previous thread on the Holy Spirit.​

Again, this shows the differences between the Protestant and Catholic understanding of sin, holiness, and salvation.

Often the Protestant understanding is that once you are saved, you are always saved, and that means that you have the infinite holiness of Christ in the eye of the Father.

The Catholic understanding is that holiness is a journey which takes a lifetime. It is inevitable that we fall from time to time and so, as St. Paul tells us, we “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”
(Philippians 2:12).

Let us study Luke 18:10-13:
"10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner!’”

The Pharisee failed to see himself as a sinner, because of pride. He compared himself to man, and celebrated his righteousness, while forgetting that, in relation to an infinitely holy God, he was a sinner also. Therefore, admitting one’s sinfulness is a sign of humility - of looking realistically at oneself.

[continued…]
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Hi TTM
Can you show me where I stated that once saved always saved. If I have not used that in my post maybe there is nothing in my post that you can find wrong so you have to go off on a tangent. My post just said that if you go to Mary you are denying Christ, who died for you. Before Christ died He said, pray to the Father in my name, you havent done that before but do it now.When He died, the curtain was torn so you could go directly to God. Now catholics stand Mary in front of Him and make God’s gift of Christ a mockery.
Please answer this question. Can God save you without the intercession of the saints who have passed from earth?
Please please see what you are doing. Christ is your intercessor in heaven and the Holy Spirit on earth.
May Christ grow in your heart
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
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TTM:
We ask for the prayers of the Saints because their holiness has been recognized by those with authority to do so (more on this later), and furthermore, their perfected state in Heaven means **they have nothing to block their prayers to God. **

Let’s now look at James 5:16-18:
“The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. 17 Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.”

In other words, prayer has a varying degree of effectiveness according to one’s state of holiness. It only makes sense. How could the Holy Spirit operate effectively if you are stained with Sin? So we try our best to increase in holiness, but it is also a sign of humility to admit that our prayers will never be as effective as they can be on our own. We need intercession of holy men and women, an example here being Elijah. So no, we are not in any way saying that God is insufficient, but that our prayers are not always as effective as those of people holier and hence closer to God than ourselves.

We also know that the Saints are alive with God. Let’s look at Matthew 22:32: “`I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living”. They are alive in the same way that the Christians are on Earth; in Christ.

The reason why we pray to Saints, aside from what I’ve mentioned above, is that they are a part of the Body of Christ. By being part of the Body of Christ, Christ allows us a share in his duty as “high priest for ever after the order of Melchiz’edek” (Hebrews 6:20). We share in Jesus’ priestly role as the “one mediator” (1 Tim 2:5), through our sharing of Jesus’ eternal priesthood as “a chosen race, a royal priesthood” (1 Peter 2:9). This is why Christians can intercede for the world - because we are the Body of Christ. This is also why the Saints are interceding for us, because Jesus is interceding for us in eternity, and they are a part of His Body, Christ the eternal priest. And so those in Heaven, the Church Triumphant as the Catholic Church calls it, intercede for us, the Church Militant on Earth. This is why “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1).

[continued…]
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Hi TTM
It only makes sense. there is no scripture to make this claim. I view this as man’s wisdom.
If you are stained with sin. What do you mean. IF. So now you are saying the Holy Spirit is not as effective if one is stained by sin. Where is this in scripture? Who isnt a sinner? Did God and Jesus give us a Holy Spirit who is ineffective because we have sin.
Our prayers will never be as effective. You dont have the power or authority to make your prayers more or less effective. DO you think by using a “saint” you can get around God. This is a very foolish line of thinking. There is nothing between you and God now that you have Jesus’s blood and in His name you are to go to the father. These are childrens thoughts, to attempt to sidestep God. God doesnt want holy people’s prayers for you. He wants you to humble yourself and pray to HIm with a repentant heart. You dont have a proxy.
May Christ grow in your heart
walk in love TTM
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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TTM:
Now, you said:

Yes, I do seek the Truth. Nothing is more important to me. If Catholicism, or even Christianity turn out to be false religions, I am ready to leave - because Truth is God himself.

I’d like to put the same question to you. Are you really interested in the truth, from the heart? Do you really seek it, or do you allow your own preconceptions to get in the way of finding it?

As I said, I do have doubts about where your “answer” came from. You ask who has the authority to overcome him when you are fasting for His truth. The answer is, yourself. If you are going to be stubborn in this matter, God will not intervene, out of respect for your free will. Now, I’m not going to make a judgement, but I feel that I ought to point this out.

[continued…]
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Hi TTM,
How do you make stubbornness out of following the request of a catholic supporter, MariaG. She asked me to pray about Mary. I did this. Is this stubborn? My prayer was answered, Jesus said to fast. I did this. Is this being stubborn?
After 3 days to 4 days, I forget the time, I received the answer, One God He alone. Is this being stubborn? I suggest if you really want the answer, instead of debating with me, seek the truth. But as the question is about Mary, dont pray to her. Can you do this, pray and not pray to Mary, Do you believe in your heart that God and Christ and the Holy Spirit hear your every word and thought and if you pray with sincerity they will answer you? I beg you TTM seek the truth. Stop talking and start acting.
Again I ask you, Do you believe that God alone can save you?

Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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mlchance:
Originally Posted by edwinG
The way I have understood the principle of Roman Catholics using intercessors, like the saints who have died to earth, is because of their powerfull intercessory prayers, which are needed because sometimes God turns His face away.

“God turns His face away”? First I’ve ever heard this. It’s funny how people who object to Catholic practice and doctrine can’t seem to actually start by objecting to actual Catholic practice and doctrine.

– Mark L. Chance.
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Hi michance,
Well help me to understand then. Your post has not increased my knowledge at all. Dig in mate.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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edwinG:
Hi TTM,
How do you make stubbornness out of following the request of a catholic supporter, MariaG. She asked me to pray about Mary. I did this. Is this stubborn? My prayer was answered, Jesus said to fast. I did this. Is this being stubborn?
After 3 days to 4 days, I forget the time, I received the answer, One God He alone. Is this being stubborn? I suggest if you really want the answer, instead of debating with me, seek the truth. But as the question is about Mary, dont pray to her. Can you do this, pray and not pray to Mary, Do you believe in your heart that God and Christ and the Holy Spirit hear your every word and thought and if you pray with sincerity they will answer you? I beg you TTM seek the truth. Stop talking and start acting.
Again I ask you, Do you believe that God alone can save you?

Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Yes, Catholics KNOW that God alone saves them,pray means to ask,we ask for the intercession of Mary just like when you ask your freinds on earth to pray.Seek the truth,huh?Got it:) Your intention was set in stone before the prayer and fast. Our Lord doesn’t have an inferiority complex and when we ask the Saints to pray for us,it is also,in thanksgiving to God for giving us such Holy people as models.Try not thanking someone who gives you a present this Christmas,ignore it,see if the giver of the gift is happy.God Bless
 
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Lorarose:
If the protestants want to continue this ridiculous objection to intercessory prayer - then they better get consistent and quit asking for their pastor/family/friends to pray for them!!

Catholics do not believe - as protestants do- that those who have undergone physical death are incapable of intercessory prayer.
The Book of Revelation supports the catholic position on this as it portrays the martyrs interceding before God on behalf of those on earth.

I have a daughter in heaven and I ask her to pray for us, just as I would ask my other children to pray for us.
We ask the saints to pray for us - so what?
I see protestants flocking in droves to see ministers who they believe to be very holy hoping they get a chance for those ministers to pray for them.
Why don’t they just skip the holy minister and go straight to Jesus?
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Hi Lorarose,
I can only speak for me, but 1) I dont pray to those who are resting in Christ for probably the same reasons you have heard countless times.
I ask people to pray for me, because it humbles me to have to ask for help which stops pride growing and it promotes love and fellowship between christians. Additionally, when the prayer is answered it builds faith, and it witnesses to the body of the church so that many people can be edified.
When people ask me to pray for them, my doing so is an act of love for my fellow man and this pleases God.
God already knows what we are going to pray for. And often, He answers our thoughts and bowls us over with the depth of His love for us. That is why I and probably many people believe in intercession, of people here on earth.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
 
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Lorarose:
If the protestants want to continue this ridiculous objection to intercessory prayer - then they better get consistent and quit asking for their pastor/family/friends to pray for them!!

Catholics do not believe - as protestants do- that those who have undergone physical death are incapable of intercessory prayer.
The Book of Revelation supports the catholic position on this as it portrays the martyrs interceding before God on behalf of those on earth.

I have a daughter in heaven and I ask her to pray for us, just as I would ask my other children to pray for us.
We ask the saints to pray for us - so what?
I see protestants flocking in droves to see ministers who they believe to be very holy hoping they get a chance for those ministers to pray for them.
Why don’t they just skip the holy minister and go straight to Jesus?
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Hi Lorarose again,
While we are talking intercession, I would like all the people on this thread who read this to pray for MaryG. She has gone missing whilst being involved in spiritual warfare.
May Christ grow in your hearts
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
Hi Lora, we both agree that it makes no sense to you and to me.My comments as well as yours are assumptions for neither of us can prove it because we are not in heaven.If the saints were praying it would have said it but it doesnt.Why not? Also we really dont know if our loved ones are in heaven,we hope that they are but only God knows who is saved and who is not.Your personal experiences have no bearing for they are private revelation. We as christian seek the help [intercession] of our brothers and sisters because we know for a fact that our prayers are heard and brought forward into the throne room by the Heavenly Saints as outlined in the book or revelation ch5 vs 8. God Bless
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I don’t believe - as you do- that the bible contains the entire story.
John was pretty clear about that at the end of his gospel wasn’t he?

Actually the Book of Revelation does show souls in heaven engaging in prayer.

Rev 6: 9-11

“When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, ‘How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgement and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.”

This clearly shows souls in heaven who are both aware of earthly events (they are aware their blood has not yet been avenged) and they are able to offer their concern to God. They are concerned about how long it will take God to bring justice to their persecutors.God hears them and gives them a gift and an answer to their concerns. Is this not prayer?

We see heavenly souls aware of earthly events when Babylon falls.

Rev. 19: 1-3

"After this, I heard what sounded like the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying:
‘Alleluia!
Salvation, glory, and might belong to our God,
for true and just are his judgements.
He has condemned the great harlot
who corrupted the earth with her harlotry.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.’
They said a second time:
‘Alleluia! Smoke will rise from her forever and ever.’​

So…clearly souls in heaven can be aware of earthly events and take great concern over these events - why wouldn’t they?
These verses are on top of the other verses showing heavenly souls presenting prayers to God.
Why aren’t these prayers rising directly to Him? Why are they being mediators and presenting them to Him?

As for my baptized daughter who was 3 yrs. old at the time of her death…yes, I can say I am certain that my daughter is in heaven.
Our Heavenly Father is a kind and merciful God.
Jesus didn’t sacrifice Himself so that He could turn around and send innocent 3 yr. olds to hell.​

It is not an “either” “or” situation.
I pray directly to the Holy Trinity. I also believe that Jesus has generously given us many gifts - including the gift of each other.
We believe our fellow christians can pray for us even while we remain in this shadowy place - even when we remain in the state of sin.
The souls in heaven are united with God. They are much closer to Him than we are now.
Why would He NOT listen to the prayers of those purified souls?
 
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mlchance:
Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4. See also Matthew 5:44 and 1 Timothy 2:1–4 (for the necessity of intercessory prayer), James 5:16–18 (for the effectiveness of a righteous person’s prayers), and Hebrews 12:22-23 (to show that Christians in Heaven are thoroughly righteous).

Now, what verses of Scripture say that the saints in Heaven cannot pray for us?

– Mark L. Chance.
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Hi michance,
The two quotes from Revelation just mention prayers of saints. That could just as easily be you and me. It in no way speaks of those resting.
The other quotes have nothing at all to do with the “dead” but intercessory prayer in which everyone is in agreement.
Two places in scripture against the saints praying for us.
  1. When Saul called up Samuel and Samuel said" why have you disturbed me"
    and 2 Lazarus when asked by the rich man, didnt even speak to him. There was No response.
    Christ be with you
    walk in love
    edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
<I can only speak for me, but 1) I dont pray to those who are resting in Christ for probably the same reasons you have heard countless times.
I ask people to pray for me, because it humbles me to have to ask for help which stops pride growing and it promotes love and fellowship between christians. Additionally, when the prayer is answered it builds faith, and it witnesses to the body of the church so that many people can be edified.
When people ask me to pray for them, my doing so is an act of love for my fellow man and this pleases God.
God already knows what we are going to pray for. And often, He answers our thoughts and bowls us over with the depth of His love for us. That is why I and probably many people believe in intercession, of people here on earth.
Christ be with you
walk in love>

When we ask others to pray for us, or when we pray for others, we do it with confidence that those prayers will be heard.
That God will hear us.
Otherwise…why would it build faith? Or increase humility?
Why would we commit such an act of love for our fellow man, and then abandon this practice when we become closer to God in heaven?
Wouldn’t this be precisely the moment when our prayers would be closer to Him?

So…I still see contradiction here.
On one hand there are many who say “I go straight to Jesus” while they continue to ask others to pray for them.
But many of these same folks condemn catholics for doing the exact same thing.
We are asking for heavenly souls to pray for us. We know from scripture that heavenly souls are aware of what occurs on the earth. We know they are concerned. Why would they be incapable of interceding?

There is no scriptural basis for this belief that the heavenly souls cannot engage in prayer and intercede.
 
<Hi Lorarose again,
While we are talking intercession, I would like all the people on this thread who read this to pray for MaryG. She has gone missing whilst being involved in spiritual warfare.
May Christ grow in your hearts
walk in love
edwinG>

Do you mean physically missing? Or that you haven’t heard from her?
Yes - I will pray for her.
 
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mlchance:
No challenge assumed. The counter-question is a very important one. Scripture does indicate that those in Heaven, both the saints and the angels, are aware of and can intercede for those on Earth. Scripture strongly urges us to intercessory prayer on each other’s behalf. If we are to follow God’s will regarding intercessory prayer on Earth, isn’t it reasonable to believe that we would continue to follow God’s will in Heaven? Or are we to believe that God’s will on Earth differs from God’s in Heaven, despite Jesus Christ’s own words to the contrary?

Now consider the counter-question: What verses of Scripture say that the saints in Heaven cannot pray for us? If there are such verses, then obviously we have a conflict with Scripture itself.

But, as has been noted, there are no verses of Scripture that say the saints in Heaven cannot pray of us.

– Mark L. Chance.
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Hi Mark L
Where you have said, “saints(in heaven, I assume) can intercede for those on earth” I wonder if you would supply me with your favourite quotes.
“Isnt it reasonable to believe” This argues against the position of belief in Rev . It shows your doubt in the meaning of Rev.
May Christ grow in you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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