Protestant-Catholic dialogue on Mary, Saints, Church authority, etc

[Lisa4Catholics]

TTM:

edwinG, that’s great! It’s exactly the same for us, except that we believe that this bond that we have through Christ extends to those who are alive in Christ in Heaven. Remember, we can all share in intercession for the world because of our Royal Priesthood, which comes from our sharing of Jesus’ Eternal Priesthood, because, in a sense, we are Jesus. We are his Body. We are all alive in the same way. Here on Earth, we already have Eternal Life. It is the same with those in Heaven. Our bond due to being in the Body of Christ means that they intercede for us, because they witness us and share in Christ’s intercession.

God bless,
TTM

Excellent post and well said It seems some people feel only while we are on this earth we are part of Christs body I am still frazzled and waiting on a response from edwinG that seems to imply in the post that Our Blessed Mother might be in hell. I am on pins and needles, and if edwin did indeed mean that there is going to be an explaination requested.God Bless

 

[TTM]

edwinG:

Two places in scripture against the saints praying for us.

1. When Saul called up Samuel and Samuel said" why have you disturbed me"

Yes, but that was necromancy using spiritual mediums. The Church is absolutely opposed to dealing with demonic forces in this way. We only rely on the bond that we share due to our kinship (in the literal sense, because we really are a family in Christ).

2 Lazarus when asked by the rich man, didnt even speak to him. There was No response.

So was Abraham not in Heaven? He did speak, did he not?

Besides this, it is also possible that the rich man was in purgatory. We also believe that the souls in purgatory intercede for us, because those in Hell are incapable of doing so, having totally rejected God. It shows that the rich man still has some love for his family, which would be unlikely in Hell.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

I think the problem here is that most protestants ask for a verse which has St. Paul saying “OK, now it’s time for us to ask that dead Saint to pray for us”. Failing to find it, they cry “it’s un-biblical!”. I think though, if people are truly open, they’ll find the answer. Afterall, the concept of a Trinitarian God has no one verse which has Jesus saying “The One God, you see, is actually three persons sharing one Divinity; The Father, The Son [that is, myself], and the Holy Spirit”.

As we trust God, we have to trust the authority that God gave us to direct us, because it is the means by which the Holy Spirit works. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16) - in rejecting God’s Earthly authority, we run the risk of joining Korah’s rebellion (Numbers 16)!

mlchance:

Is offering intercessory prayer God’s will? Yes. Is God’s will the same in Heaven as on Earth? Yes. Do those in Heaven obey God’s will? Yes.

I think this is a good point.

God bless,
TTM

 

[Exporter]

Originally posted by Spoken Word:
“Hi Lora,I believe the problem lies in the understanding of Gods Word. God does not speak in error. I disagree with you on that the book of revelation proves that the saints in heaven are praying for us. My understanding is that those Saints in heaven are Gods servants,like the Holy angels.I believe that there days in heaven are now spent worshipping and praising God. The job of praying is for earthly saints. The heavenly Saints only collect them and bring them into the throne room. In that aspect they are interceeding because they are presenting the prayers collected from the earthly saints.I do not see anywhere in scripture that the heavenly saints are themselves praying. Unless you can prove to me that I am in error I retain my belief. God Bless. P/s There are many christians who chase a person for healing rather then to look for the HEALER,Our Lord Jesus Christ.”

---

Hi Spoke. You speak of saints in heaven, then Saints in heaven, then The Heavenly Saints, Holy angels, then “earthly saints.”

To make any sense out of this don’t we need to get our definitions nailed down? There is no way I can tell who you are talking about. You captalize some places and then you don’t. You spoke of heavenly and earthly saints, then Holy Angels.

We need to get something squared away. Angels and Archangels are not Saints. Those holy men who have died on earth and are in Heaven are called Saints. A St. Joseph’s Daily Missal will tell you that. We have a bad habit of calling Holy Michael the Archangel , St. Michael…it is not St. Michael, it is Holy Archangel Michael. that is a common mistake. It is correct to name the Apostles as Saints.This correction will clearify any reference to them.

Lets use the Catholic Apocalypse VIII:v3 - 4. Doesn’t it say that an Angel offered up the prayers of all the saints? That proves that Saints can pray and do pray. Merry Christmas.

 

[TTM]

edwinG:

So God gave us the gift of His Son, at the cost of the Son’s blood, and you choose to use it sometimes and to use someother present (that could be in hell) at some other time.

No, we choose Jesus, all the time. It’s not either/or. I think this is the core of the misunderstanding. We ask saints to pray for us, in the name of Jesus. Only because of Jesus, they can intercede for us. Everything is done in him, by his authority, and through him. It isn’t that we choose NOT to accept Jesus by asking others in Christ’s Body to pray for us. No, it’s precisely the opposite. You say that the Earthly intercession is a good thing. We agree. We just think it’s the same concept, extended to the members of the Body of Christ in Heaven.

God bless,
TTM

 

[Calv150]

Another thing, why is it that the pope is infallible? and if he is does that mean that he cannot sin as that would mean he was fallible? These are serious questions, not tryingto offend!

God Bless

Calv

 

[TTM]

edwinG:

I fully accept this absolutely beautiful gift and use it exclusively

Yes, but so do I, and so do the people I ask prayers from.

Again, not a contradiction, but a misunderstanding.

Anyway, thank you edwinG for taking part. I know that you think we are slightly “lost” for us to be “praying” to the Saints, and your intention is to put us right with God. I think we can all appreciate that, in spite of imperfections in both parties.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Anyway, I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas!

I’m sorry if at any time I have not been as charitable as I could have been. I’ll forgive you too, if any of you has got on my nerves!

Keep seeking the Truth!

Bless you all,
TTM

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Exporter:

Originally posted by Spoken Word:
“Hi Lora,I believe the problem lies in the understanding of Gods Word. God does not speak in error. I disagree with you on that the book of revelation proves that the saints in heaven are praying for us. My understanding is that those Saints in heaven are Gods servants,like the Holy angels.I believe that there days in heaven are now spent worshipping and praising God. The job of praying is for earthly saints. The heavenly Saints only collect them and bring them into the throne room. In that aspect they are interceeding because they are presenting the prayers collected from the earthly saints.I do not see anywhere in scripture that the heavenly saints are themselves praying. Unless you can prove to me that I am in error I retain my belief. God Bless. P/s There are many christians who chase a person for healing rather then to look for the HEALER,Our Lord Jesus Christ.”

---

Hi Spoke. You speak of saints in heaven, then Saints in heaven, then The Heavenly Saints, Holy angels, then “earthly saints.”

To make any sense out of this don’t we need to get our definitions nailed down? There is no way I can tell who you are talking about. You captalize some places and then you don’t. You spoke of heavenly and earthly saints, then Holy Angels.

We need to get something squared away. Angels and Archangels are not Saints. Those holy men who have died on earth and are in Heaven are called Saints. A St. Joseph’s Daily Missal will tell you that. We have a bad habit of calling Holy Michael the Archangel , St. Michael…it is not St. Michael, it is Holy Archangel Michael. that is a common mistake. It is correct to name the Apostles as Saints.This correction will clearify any reference to them.

Lets use the Catholic Apocalypse VIII:v3 - 4. Doesn’t it say that an Angel offered up the prayers of all the saints? That proves that Saints can pray and do pray. Merry Christmas.

Hi Exporter.Let me try to clarify.Angels are angels.Elders are the Heavenly Saints. There are 24 Elderssupposely the 12 apostles and the leaders of the 12 tribes in the old testament…Earthly saints are us.Anytime you read the word saints in the new testament it refers to earthtly saints. Can we agree on this so far. God Bless.

 

[TTM]

Robert in SD:

I think there’s a fundamental difference in the way Catholics and Protestants think of the “church” and that difference is affecting the perception of prayers to saints. Catholics believe that the Church is made up of members here on earth, those on their way to heaven, and those already in heaven… No one in that protestant worship service would shout at him that he does not need their prayers because he can go directly to Jesus. Instead, I’m sure that these loving christians would pray to Jesus for the man’s intentions. Catholics see no difference when it comes to a prayer to a saint in heaven. We’re asking for support in the same way, the only difference being, that we can only communicate with that saint by prayer.

…Another side-note: In Catholic terminology, prayer does not equal worship. Prayer is synonnmous with “petition” or “request.” Worship is directed only to God.

Catholics do not believe that we can only approach God through saints. We too believe that we can go directly to God. That’s not the issue…

I don’t know if this helps or not, but it’s just my two cents.

Peace to all, and to all a Merry Christmas!

That was very helpful.

Lisa4Catholics:

Excellent post and well said It seems some people feel only while we are on this earth we are part of Christs body

Thanks

I am still frazzled and waiting on a response from edwinG that seems to imply in the post that Our Blessed Mother might be in hell. I am on pins and needles, and if edwin did indeed mean that there is going to be an explaination requested.God Bless

I have not read any of edwinG’s posts which suggest this. I’m sure he would not mean it in that way though.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Lorarose:

He gave these “special powers” to His apostles too. It appears to me that Jesus likes it when we help each other…Why would it be any different with the saints in heaven?

Good point.

He allows the Body of Christ in Heaven to intercede for us, because he likes it when we love each other. In turn, we can grow in love toward the Saints in Heaven, our Spiritual brothers and sisters.

I think this demonstrates God’s eternal perspective. From our limited view, from our flesh, it’s hard to see how we can have communion with those gone before us. In this sense, we can not blame our Protestant brothers for thinking that such communion is impossible. However, we know from scriptures that they are in fact alive in Christ, and that they witness us, and that through being in the Body of Christ, share in Jesus’ intercessory role.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Hi Calv,

Calv150:

Another thing, why is it that the pope is infallible? and if he is does that mean that he cannot sin as that would mean he was fallible? These are serious questions, not tryingto offend!

Don’t be afraid to ask questions! It’s always good to have a humble and inquisitive heart and mind.

The concept of papal infallibility, I think, is often misunderstood. It does not mean that he can not sin! That would be Papal “impeccability”, which the Church does not claim at all.

I recommend a coupe of resources from Catholic Answers:

• Papal Infallibility - this explains what it is, what it isn’t, how it works, and why it’s important.
• The Authority of the Pope; Part 1 and (if you like) Part 2 - these show what the Early Church Fathers had to say about that.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Hi Calv,

Calv150:

If you can pray directly to God? Why bother with praying through saints? What is the point?

Since we’re all called to be in Heavenly communion, we are all called to intercede for each other out of love. This, we believe, extends to those in Heaven. They share in Christ’s eternal priesthood through being in the Body of Christ, and so they also share in Christ’s priestly intercessory role.

Where in the bible does it say Mary is DEFINATELY in heaven? it seems logical that she is but is it actually biblical?

Catholics believe that the Lady of Revelation is not only Jerusalem and the Church, but Mary also:

“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Revelation of John 12:1)

• Since the child who she gives birth to is an actual person, as is the dragon, it stands to sense that the Mother is also an actual person who gave birth to the child - Mary.
• Since Jesus is the Davidiac King, Mary is the Davidiac Queen Mother who, as we see here, has been crowned in the Heavnly Kingdom.
• Mary is the Arc of the New Covenant, revealed in Rev 11:19 (a verse before the one above - keep in mind that chapters were put in place later). Keep in mind that the Old Arc was a type for Mary. It carried the mana (heavenly bread), Aaron’s rod (symbolizing priesthood) and the ten commandments (the Word of God in stone), whereas Mary carried the True Bread of Life from Heaven, the true and Eternal Priest, and the Word of God made flesh.

God bless,
TTM

 

[edwinG]

TTM:

Now, you said:

Yes, I do seek the Truth. Nothing is more important to me. Catholicism,**If or even Christianity turn out to be false religions, I am ready to leave - because Truth is God himself. **

[continued…]

Hi TTM
I believe you TTM and these are your words. I am going to pray for you that you may establish yourself in the truth regarding Mary.
Feel very safe TTM, because I only call on God in Jesus holy name. If the truth has not come upon you by Sunday I will fast for you that you may receive eternal life and hopefully be included in the first resurrection.
May Christ mature in you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

TTM:

Of course, we also pray everything in Jesus’ name. What does a Catholic do everytime he/she prays? Sign of the cross - “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen”. By the way, this is the same as praying in Jesus’ name. Take Acts 2:38, for instance, where Peter say to “be baptized… in the name of Jesus Christ”. We know that the formula that Jesus gave us is “into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). So praying “in Jesus’ name” means to pray with his authority, and in him. The sign of the cross helps us to do exactly this.

If Mary was “Judged” to be holy, it is the Holy Spirit who does so, through the scriptures and the Church. More on this later, but for now it’s worth noting too that Luther was a devout Marian. A couple of examples on what he had to say with regard to her Immaculate Conception:

“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of MaryÕs soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with GodÕs gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).

“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sinÑsomething exceedingly great. For GodÕs grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.” (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).

As you can see, Luther would have had no problems in admitting Mary’s holiness. The Catholic Church professes that Mary is the greatest of all the Saints, being entirely free of sin, and one who is dearest to Jesus, being his mother. This is why, we believe, her prayers are so powerful.

I guess I do doubt where your “answer” came from, particularly because you showed a lack of openness and a whole series of preconceptions. Allow me to quote you from The Rosary thread:

[continued…]

Hi TTM
Do you support this from Saint Faustina
of Mary
You are the model and star of my life.
Now Jesus is the model and star of my life and I wish to conform my self to Him. Who do you choose?
May Christ grow in you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Lorarose]

Hi Lora, those four creatures were Angels as outlined in appearance in rev4 vs 7&8. Notice they had wings.In rev 19vs 1 it sounded like a great assembly but it was the 24 Elders and Angels. Pretty strong voices they had.

Let me get this right…if they have WINGS they MUST be angels?
Is that correct?
Where does it say THAT in the bible?

So… creatures with wings cannot simply be creatures with wings - they must be angels? According to who? Where are you getting this?

Anyways, it doesn’t really address the point I was addressing.
You suggested in an earlier post that heavenly souls are not aware of earthly events, are not concerned with them, and are not praying about earthly events.

I showed you scripture that clearly showed they are indeed aware of earthly events, concerned, and pray to God about them.
Your response?..they must have been informed by the angels.

WHY DOES IT MATTER HOW THEY GOT THEIR INFO?
They are still aware of earthly events - they are concerned - and they pray. That is the point.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are incapable of intercession.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

edwinG:

Hi TTM
Do you support this from Saint Faustina
of Mary
You are the model and star of my life.
Now Jesus is the model and star of my life and I wish to conform my self to Him. Who do you choose?
May Christ grow in you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Why do you think Saint Faustina said that? What does Mary tell us in Scripture? Do whatever He(meaning Jesus) tells you.Your condescending manner in talking to us is rediculous We tell you we know Jesus saves us and you choose to not here a word of it.Jesus honored his mother it is sad you can’t,but you are writing things into Mary that are not there. I will pray that you accept God not only as just but loving also, and I will also pray that realise His ways are above yours and you can’t confine Him in a box,or scripture alone.By the way if everything about Jesus was put down all the books in the world could not contain it.God Bless

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

edwinG:

Hi TTM
I believe you TTM and these are your words. I am going to pray for you that you may establish yourself in the truth regarding Mary.
Feel very safe TTM, because I only call on God in Jesus holy name. If the truth has not come upon you by Sunday I will fast for you that you may receive eternal life and hopefully be included in the first resurrection.
May Christ mature in you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Truth regarding Mary, and what would that be?Jesus will save TTM and anybody else he wants to, and believe me Jesus knows our hearts and whom we worship,which is HIM.You have made your mind up falsely about our relationship with the Lord and the Saints.I will pray for you .God Bless

 

[Calv150]

I looked at the bit about the pope, surely if the pope can sin, he can then be separated from God and then surely he could make a mistake and so not be infallible?

Calv

 

[TTM]

Hi edwinG,

edwinG:

Hi TTM
I believe you TTM and these are your words. I am going to pray for you that you may establish yourself in the truth regarding Mary.

Feel very safe TTM, because I only call on God in Jesus holy name. If the truth has not come upon you by Sunday I will fast for you that you may receive eternal life and hopefully be included in the first resurrection.

As much as I disagree with your theological and moral ground you have established for yourself, I do appreciate that you are praying for me. Thank you.

I’ll be praying for you too.

God bless,
TTM