Protestant-Catholic dialogue on Mary, Saints, Church authority, etc

[TTM]

edwinG:

Hi TTM
Do you support this from Saint Faustina
of Mary
You are the model and star of my life.
Now Jesus is the model and star of my life and I wish to conform my self to Him. Who do you choose?

Yes, I do agree, and yes, I also agree that Jesus is the model and start of my life. Let me explain.

Mary, we believe, is the model disciple. Her faith is so amazing that she could accept a potentially perilous task of being pregnant in such a circumstance, and believed in Jesus’ capabilities at Cana before anything of the sort was demonstrated. She is so pure, so dedicated, yet so humble.

BUT, where does all this come from? God, of course. She is only the model and start of my life, because she was so humble, so transparent, that God’s glory reflects off her without anything getting in the way. And why was she able to do this? Because of the merits of her Son, Jesus. God chose to preserve her from sin, as it is fitting for the Arc of the New Covenant who carried Holiness Itself in her. She is holy, because Jesus is holy. Without Jesus, she would be nothing, nobody. Yet because of Jesus, she is the Arc of the Covenant whose prayers are powerful; the Queen Mother (the Queen in the Davidiac kingdom is always the mother of the King); and the New Eve (Unlike the first Eve who brought death to the world by her disobedience in following the evil angel and giving the fruit to Adam “man”], Mary brought life into the world through obedience to a good angel, gave the “fruit of her womb” [note the divine pun in the literal translation] to man.).

God, in his wisdom, knew that the Church needs a female role model, because she is feminine. We can not act completely like Christ, because he is 100% God (which we are not), as well as 100% man. Yes, Christ is our model and definitely our star, who we strive to imitate. However, we see in Mary what it is like to be completely Christ-like, without being God.

I think that if you contemplate on the life of Mary in the scriptures, you’ll begin to see that, although she humbly stays in the background as she should, her Christ-likeness always shines through, and you’ll be amazed.

I, for one, am so grateful to Jesus for giving us his Mother to me, a beloved disciple, while he suffered on the cross.

Bless ya,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Calv150:

I looked at the bit about the pope, surely if the pope can sin, he can then be separated from God and then surely he could make a mistake and so not be infallible?

What is your understanding of Papal Infallibility, now that you have read it?

God bless,
TTM

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Lorarose:

Let me get this right…if they have WINGS they MUST be angels?
Is that correct?
Where does it say THAT in the bible?

So… creatures with wings cannot simply be creatures with wings - they must be angels? According to who? Where are you getting this?

Anyways, it doesn’t really address the point I was addressing.
You suggested in an earlier post that heavenly souls are not aware of earthly events, are not concerned with them, and are not praying about earthly events.

I showed you scripture that clearly showed they are indeed aware of earthly events, concerned, and pray to God about them.
Your response?..they must have been informed by the angels.

WHY DOES IT MATTER HOW THEY GOT THEIR INFO?
They are still aware of earthly events - they are concerned - and they pray. That is the point.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are incapable of intercession.

Hi Lora, That would be a reasonable assumption even though you do not agree. Our human images have always protrayed angels with having wings. Believe it or not there are five different catagories of angels in heaven. These creatures with wings are Angels.As I said the Elders are aware because the Holy Angels revealed it to them. I hope I cleared up your misunderstanding about the great multitude issue.Again its your oppinion without proof that they are praying for us. God Bless.

 

[edwinG]

Lorarose:

I don’t believe - as you do- that the bible contains the entire story.
John was pretty clear about that at the end of his gospel wasn’t he?

Actually the Book of Revelation does show souls in heaven engaging in prayer.

Rev 6: 9-11

“When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, ‘How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgement and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.”

This clearly shows souls in heaven who are both aware of earthly events (they are aware their blood has not yet been avenged) and they are able to offer their concern to God. They are concerned about how long it will take God to bring justice to their persecutors.God hears them and gives them a gift and an answer to their concerns. Is this not prayer?

We see heavenly souls aware of earthly events when Babylon falls.

Rev. 19: 1-3

"After this, I heard what sounded like the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying:
‘Alleluia!
Salvation, glory, and might belong to our God,
for true and just are his judgements.
He has condemned the great harlot
who corrupted the earth with her harlotry.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.’
They said a second time:
‘Alleluia! Smoke will rise from her forever and ever.’​

So…clearly souls in heaven can be aware of earthly events and take great concern over these events - why wouldn’t they?
These verses are on top of the other verses showing heavenly souls presenting prayers to God.
Why aren’t these prayers rising directly to Him? Why are they being mediators and presenting them to Him?

---

As for my baptized daughter who was 3 yrs. old at the time of her death…yes, I can say I am certain that my daughter is in heaven.
Our Heavenly Father is a kind and merciful God.
Jesus didn’t sacrifice Himself so that He could turn around and send innocent 3 yr. olds to hell.​

It is not an “either” “or” situation.
I pray directly to the Holy Trinity. I also believe that Jesus has generously given us many gifts - including the gift of each other.
We believe our fellow christians can pray for us even while we remain in this shadowy place - even when we remain in the state of sin.
The souls in heaven are united with God. They are much closer to Him than we are now.
**Why would He NOT listen to the prayers of those purified souls?/**QUOTE]
Hi,
Why should He have to. What is wrong with you submitting to Him and repenting and asking Him. Are you scared, what is wrong. Why do you keep on insisting that someone else is better at praying to God than you, especially when God has given you the Holy Spirit to intercede and help you pray. God did this because He knows you dont know how to pray. And still you dont believe Him and use an intercessor other than Him. Cant you understand, He alone. Jesus in heaven the Holy Spirit on earth. Truly I say to you 1) you dont need anyone else but God, because He is totally capable. 2) you are insulting Him by trying to use a “dead” saint as a lever. Understand this , if you are sincere, your prayers are in His heart and His blessing will be upon you. If you are not sincere, only He can help you.

May Christ grow in your heart
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

TTM:

Yes, I do agree, and yes, I also agree that Jesus is the model and start of my life. Let me explain.

Mary, we believe, is the model disciple. Her faith is so amazing that she could accept a potentially perilous task of being pregnant in such a circumstance, and believed in Jesus’ capabilities at Cana before anything of the sort was demonstrated. She is so pure, so dedicated, yet so humble.

BUT, where does all this come from? God, of course. She is only the model and start of my life, because she was so humble, so transparent, that God’s glory reflects off her without anything getting in the way. And why was she able to do this? Because of the merits of her Son, Jesus. God chose to preserve her from sin, as it is fitting for the Arc of the New Covenant who carried Holiness Itself in her. She is holy, because Jesus is holy. Without Jesus, she would be nothing, nobody. Yet because of Jesus, she is the Arc of the Covenant whose prayers are powerful; the Queen Mother (the Queen in the Davidiac kingdom is always the mother of the King); and the New Eve (Unlike the first Eve who brought death to the world by her disobedience in following the evil angel and giving the fruit to Adam “man”], Mary brought life into the world through obedience to a good angel, gave the “fruit of her womb” [note the divine pun in the literal translation] to man.).

God, in his wisdom, knew that the Church needs a female role model, because she is feminine. We can not act completely like Christ, because he is 100% God (which we are not), as well as 100% man. Yes, Christ is our model and definitely our star, who we strive to imitate. However, we see in Mary what it is like to be completely Christ-like, without being God.

I think that if you contemplate on the life of Mary in the scriptures, you’ll begin to see that, although she humbly stays in the background as she should, her Christ-likeness always shines through, and you’ll be amazed.

I, for one, am so grateful to Jesus for giving us his Mother to me, a beloved disciple, while he suffered on the cross.

Bless ya,
TTM

Hi TTM,
That is pretty sad stuff, when you could choose Jesus but you try and choose both. You certainly write a lot of pretty words as do many catholics, like a shark feeding frenzy, each madly trying to out do the next one in praise. If you cant see it , then you cant see it. It is God in Christ and Christ in God who grows in you, if you allow Him. But you want to shut Him out. Squeeze over God, Jesus dont take up so much room, I want more space for Mary. Come on Mary, you are the model and idol of my life. Only you can save me.( Arent those the words praising Mary?)
May Christ in God only grow in your heahttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gifrt
Walk in love
edwinG

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

edwinG:

Hi TTM,
That is pretty sad stuff, when you could choose Jesus but you try and choose both. You certainly write a lot of pretty words as do many catholics, like a shark feeding frenzy, each madly trying to out do the next one in praise. If you cant see it , then you cant see it. It is God in Christ and Christ in God who grows in you, if you allow Him. But you want to shut Him out. Squeeze over God, Jesus dont take up so much room, I want more space for Mary. Come on Mary, you are the model and idol of my life. Only you can save me.( Arent those the words praising Mary?)
May Christ in God only grow in your heahttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gifrt
Walk in love
edwinG

You are trying to read hearts and it doesn’t work. You are also playing God and that is a NO NO:tsktsk: You are way out of line to accuse Catholics of idol worship It is so sad in your pride you assume you can read our hearts and intentions.You are being hypocritical asking someone on this earth to pray for you,and making accusations against us for doing the same thing.You refuse to see that.You are being very false and ugly about "us Catholics"trying to out do each other in praise.From your post it looks like you have taken the spiritual soap box.God Bless

 

[Exporter]

Calv150,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calv150
If you can pray directly to God? Why bother with praying through saints? What is the point?

---

Did you know that you are posting on a Catholic site. The name of it is Catholic Answers.

You come on here and use the same old worn out Protestant attacks that you probably heard in some Protestant Church. We are tired of the over used old fashioned barbs - they don’t work any more.

If you want to be an anti-Catholic go do your homework, study the Catholic Tradition, the Dogmas and the Epistles of the Early Fathers. Hey, you can’t do a good job of attacking unless you know your enemy.
JMJ. Go to this site, at the bottom of the page, you can go to other topicspadrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/Apparition.htm

 

[Exporter]

edwinG:

Hi Lisa4Catholics,
Is this true, " We ask for the intercession of Mary" You pray to God in Jesus’s Holy name and ask Him to have Mary intercede for you.

I thought you asked Mary to intercede for you.

Your intention was set in stone. This is true Lisa, as I am desperate for the truth.

So God gave us the gift of His Son, at the cost of the Son’s blood, and you choose to use it sometimes and to use someother present (that could be in hell) at some other time. Lisa, I am not the one ignoring Christ, I fully accept this absolutely beautiful gift and use it exclusively
May Christ grow in your heart
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gifhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

---

EdwinG, God has blessed you. He has blessed you with just enough intellect to get you in trouble. Don’t take that in a negative way, I am complimenting you. I was a Chemistry teacher for over 35 years. If you were a student on one of my classes and you used the same logic and display of pertenant facts or lack thereof…I would give you a failing grade. I like to read your ill -formed anti-Catholic attacks. They make me more solid in my Catholic Faith.

The first sentance by Lisa4Catholics was MISREAD by you. Then you get sarcastic with Lisa4 by feigning your interest in learning something about the Catholic Catechism . EdwinG, go do your homework! The worn out ,old fashioned Pentacostal anti-Catholic attacks wont work any more. Be original, get something new. I know you are a Sola Scriptura Protestaant, get that Bible and come back later with something new.:tsktsk: Bless your heart JMJ

 

[TTM]

Hi edwinG,

edwinG:

Why should He have to. What is wrong with you submitting to Him and repenting and asking Him. Are you scared, what is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with submitting to Him and repenting and asking Him. We are not scared, and there’s nothing wrong.

However, repentance and submission is not a one-off thing, as many protestants believe. Holiness is a journey which takes a lifetime, and we must keep repenting of our sins in various areas of our lives, and we must keep submitting various areas we have not yet done.

Because holiness is a process, Catholics understand that it is necessary to ask God’s help and grace in every way that he gives us. Our Spiritual family, the Body of Christ, is not our invention. The task of intercession is not our invention. It is God’s will. It is God’s will that his family intercedes for each other, because we are called to love and cherish each other.

Why do you keep on insisting that someone else is better at praying to God than you

Because God told us so. It is apparent throughout scriptures that the prayers of holy people are more powerful than prayers of sinners. God gave us holy intercessors, so we gratefully accept them from God.

…especially when God has given you the Holy Spirit to intercede and help you pray. God did this because He knows you dont know how to pray. And still you dont believe Him and use an intercessor other than Him. Cant you understand, He alone. Jesus in heaven the Holy Spirit on earth.

Yes, of course we need the Holy Spirit to pray. That’s a given. Of course we need Jesus for any sort of intercession to happen. That’s a given too.

Again, not a contradiction, but a misunderstanding about what we do, and what we do not do.

Truly I say to you 1) you dont need anyone else but God, because He is totally capable.

“Truly I say to you…”? May I ask, what gave you the authority to speak on behalf of Jesus?

Of course God is totally capable! I doubt that anybody here would doubt that. We are not talking about capabilities. Let us look at Col 1:24.

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church”

Now, is St. Paul saying that Christ’s suffering on the cross lacked something? That Jesus’ suffering was not enough? Is that not what many Protestants would claim to be blasphemous?

The Church understands this passage to mean that we are called, as Paul says, to “carry our cross”, in order to suffer for our fellow man. In uniting our suffering to Christ’s, our suffering becomes redemptive. My understanding is that it is for those who either do not hear, or accept Christ, that we, through the kinship we share with humanity, we may suffer on their behalf.

Same logic applies here. Of course Christ is capable. Of course God is perfect, all knowing, infinitely Holy, eternally loving. He is all those things! BUT, we do have free will, which God himself gave us, in order that love may be complete; given out of choice. Because of this free will, some of us can reject God. BUT because of free will, we can intercede for each other. This is all the more true when it comes to the Church, the Body of Christ. We share an inseparable bond among God’s family. Christ allows us to intercede for each other within the Body of Christ, because he wants us to love one another, and wants to involve human beings in the process of salvation.

1. you are insulting Him by trying to use a “dead” saint as a lever. Understand this , if you are sincere, your prayers are in His heart and His blessing will be upon you. If you are not sincere, only He can help you.

I think I’ve supplied my understanding of praying to the Saints. It seems to me much more consistent with who God is, and how God works, than the alternative you suggest. It is out of his love also, that he wants to involve man in the work of redemption. Christ did not found a “just me and Jesus” Church. No. He wants us to love one another as he loves us! Imagine that! How could anybody who loves as Jesus did not want to intercede for one’s spiritual family? Why would God disallow intercession and communion among His people? We know that death does not separate us.

edwinG, you are so determined to tell us your opinions, but you are not open to the possibilities. Do you think you know the complete truth about God? Discovering who God is is a life-long journey. Can you honestly say that you are being open to him to speak to you in this dialogue? God can speak through people. Are you listening? I don’t mean to be judgemental. I’d be contented if you could honestly say, just to yourself, that you are open to God in this matter.

God bless you!
TTM

 

[TTM]

edwinG:

Hi TTM,
That is pretty sad stuff, when you could choose Jesus but you try and choose both.

I thought I answered this before. No, it is all in Jesus that we can intercede at all. It isn’t “Jesus, and some other people”, no. It is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - nobody else! The Church is the Body of Christ. It is only because he allows us to share in his Body, and in his intercessory role, and in his Life, and in his Love, that we can do this.

You certainly write a lot of pretty words as do many catholics, like a shark feeding frenzy, each madly trying to out do the next one in praise. If you cant see it , then you cant see it.

Thank you for the charitable images

No, I can’t see it like that at all. All I see is the greater glory of God because of it. Isn’t it great that God wants us to love each other? Isn’t it great that he shares his intercessory role with us, through his Body?

It is God in Christ and Christ in God who grows in you, if you allow Him.

Of course. Without God, we can do nothing. Without God, we can be nothing.

But you want to shut Him out. Squeeze over God, Jesus dont take up so much room, I want more space for Mary. Come on Mary, you are the model and idol of my life. Only you can save me.( Arent those the words praising Mary?)

I pray to God that we would never turn Mary into an idol!

No, Mary’s greatness comes only from Jesus. She is God’s greatest intercessor, the Arc of the Covenant. She is also our Mother. Take Rev 12:17;

“Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

The woman, as explained earlier, is Jerusalem, the Church, and also Mary. Look also at John 19:27;

“Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.”

The “beloved disciple” is each and every one of us! She is our mother, because she is the mother of Christ; the Church is the Body of Christ. And because she is our Mother, we honour her, as God tells us to (Exo 20:12).

God bless!
TTM

 

[Benadam]

QUOTE]
Hi,
Why should He have to. What is wrong with you submitting to Him and repenting and asking Him. Are you scared, what is wrong. Why do you keep on insisting that someone else is better at praying to God than you, especially when God has given you the Holy Spirit to intercede and help you pray. God did this because He knows you dont know how to pray. And still you dont believe Him and use an intercessor other than Him. Cant you understand, He alone. Jesus in heaven the Holy Spirit on earth. Truly I say to you 1) you dont need anyone else but God, because He is totally capable. 2) you are insulting Him by trying to use a “dead” saint as a lever. Understand this , if you are sincere, your prayers are in His heart and His blessing will be upon you. If you are not sincere, only He can help you.

May Christ grow in your heart
walk in love
edwinGforums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gifHi Edwin,
when I read your words it’s as if I’m hearing the sound of that age when a young person who has discovered ideals to cling to and believes that anyone who doesn’t subscribe to those same ideals lacks the wisdom to do so.

1. you dont need anyone else but God, because He is totally capable.
   He’s capable of anything, that’s true, then it follows that I can say anything I want to about what I want to be true and follow it with that line, and it’s true too. I hope you see the error in your approach. His capabilities are taken for granted as well, if I take that logic to it’s conclusion His plan of salvation should consist of a blink of His eyes.
   you would have never heard of Jesus Our Saviour if it hadn’t been for the faith that you reject.
   The Apostles died to bring you Jesus…but you don’t need anyone to approach God? How does that smack in their ears? How about the two thousand years of christian lives who endured the dark road of faith so that it reached your ears? If what I’m saying is true why would you think you don’t require others to come nearer to God? Why don’t you follow THAT logic to it’s conclusion? A man’s words are shaken in a siv and like the schaffe, his words betray his heart. I hope you see the error in your thinking and cling to the lucidity of that moment so you can come to understand the power of Christ’s religion and quit judging by appearances.
2. you are insulting Him by trying to use a “dead” saint as a lever.
   I try to be carefull about how I hear, Satan’s accusations are sublime and easily mistaken, but I ‘know’ I’m not one who sees others as something to use. In knowing that when I am accused of it in such an acute form I know where the condemnation of that accusation rests.

You are insulting Him by saying someone who ‘died in Him’ is actually DEAD. God is God of the living not the dead and if you refuse the biblical evidence of that that you’ve already read from other posts it would seem you are not sincere.

You may want to study the characterisitics of eternal realities then you might stop denying the power of the religion you claim.

 

[TTM]

Lisa4Catholics:

You are way out of line to accuse Catholics of idol worship

Unfortunately, this is nothing new. “Why do Catholics worship Mary?” has to be one of the top 10 questions of all time, asked by sincere Protestant seekers .

Benadam:

you would have never heard of Jesus Our Saviour if it hadn’t been for the faith that you reject. The Apostles died to bring you Jesus…but you don’t need anyone to approach God? How does that smack in their ears? How about the two thousand years of christian lives who endured the dark road of faith so that it reached your ears? If what I’m saying is true why would you think you don’t require others to come nearer to God? Why don’t you follow THAT logic to it’s conclusion?

Right. This is partly why I said God wants to involve human beings in the process of salvation. The ability to Intercede is a great gift given to the Body of Christ, and the Body of Christ extends to Heaven.

God bless,
TTM

 

[Lorarose]

<Hi,
Why should He have to. What is wrong with you submitting to Him and repenting and asking Him. Are you scared, what is wrong. Why do you keep on insisting that someone else is better at praying to God than you, especially when God has given you the Holy Spirit to intercede and help you pray. God did this because He knows you dont know how to pray. And still you dont believe Him and use an intercessor other than Him. Cant you understand, He alone. Jesus in heaven the Holy Spirit on earth. Truly I say to you 1) you dont need anyone else but God, because He is totally capable. 2) you are insulting Him by trying to use a “dead” saint as a lever. Understand this , if you are sincere, your prayers are in His heart and His blessing will be upon you. If you are not sincere, only He can help you. >​

Edwin,

These words of yours prove you are not willing to understand someone else’s point of view.
You cannot refute an idea if you don’t even attempt to understand the idea you are attempting to refute.
You are constructing a false presumption about catholics and you find that false image easy to attack.
If you truly attempted to consider God’s plan for all of us while we are here on earth and while we are with Him in heaven - this would not be so difficult.

I never said God “had” to listen to anyone!
God cannot be put in a box, backed up against a wall, or be forced to do anything anyone demands.
You have placed limits on Him - you have declared what He is capable of and what He is not capable of.
You have declared what gifts God will give to souls and what gifts He will not.
Who put you in this position to make such declarations?
Certainly not God!

As I see no christian love in your responses - only hatelful anti-catholic bigotry- I see it is useless to further respond to your posts.

 

[dcdurel]

edwinG:

Hi TTM,
That is pretty sad stuff, when you could choose Jesus but you try and choose both. You certainly write a lot of pretty words as do many catholics, like a shark feeding frenzy, each madly trying to out do the next one in praise. If you cant see it , then you cant see it. It is God in Christ and Christ in God who grows in you, if you allow Him. But you want to shut Him out. Squeeze over God, Jesus dont take up so much room, I want more space for Mary. Come on Mary, you are the model and idol of my life. Only you can save me.( Arent those the words praising Mary?)
May Christ in God only grow in your heahttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gifrt
Walk in love
edwinG

Php 3:17 Brethren, join in
imitating me, and mark those who
so live as you have an example in
us.

Thus, St. Paul says we are to use him as an example:

** 2Th 3:9 It was not because we have
not that right, but to give you
in our conduct an example to
imitate.
**
Here he says he specifically acted as an example for other Christians.

** Jas 5:10 As an example of
suffering and patience, brethren,
take the prophets who spoke in
the name of the Lord.**
It is a good think you were not there. You would have told the Holy Spirit that our only example is Jesus, and NOT the prophets.

**Php 3:17 Brethren, join in
imitating me, and mark those who
so live as you have an example in
us.
**
I suppose the Holy Spirit is wrong for telling us to take St, Paul, the Prophets and others as examples and models?

---

**2Th 3:9 We did this, not because
we do not have the right to such
help, but in order to make
ourselves a model for you to
follow. NIV

The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture, the word of God. The word of God teaches us to use St. Paul and the Prophets as examples of who to follow, and thus, since Mary is Holy and close to Jesus, and perfectly obdient and humble she is also to be used as a model. The idea the we should use Jesus alone as an example and model is totally false. It is contrary to the word of God. It must not come from the Holy Spirit, but from man-made traditions.

Only the Church is infallible. All other religions were founded by mere men, and teach some error.
**

 

[Lorarose]

<Hi Lora, That would be a reasonable assumption even though you do not agree. Our human images have always protrayed angels with having wings. Believe it or not there are five different catagories of angels in heaven. These creatures with wings are Angels.As I said the Elders are aware because the Holy Angels revealed it to them. I hope I cleared up your misunderstanding about the great multitude issue.Again its your oppinion without proof that they are praying for us. God Bless.>

What do you mean by our “human images”?

I know catholic tradition has portrayed angels with wings in artwork and such.
I don’t know where it says in the bible that creatures with wings must be angels.
Anyways - it still doesn’t refute what is clearly portrayed in the Book of Revelations - that is, heavenly souls who are clearly aware of earthly events, concerned, and who pray about them.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are incapable of intercession.

 

[Benadam]

Lorarose QUOTE:
*There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are incapable of intercession. *

Right.
The structure of heaven it’self is built on the bonds between persons. Jesus is the Son of God who shares with the Holy Spirit and the Father that Trinitarian bond that is the source of all human bonds. It is that that ‘binds’ persons into a body. To believe in a life in heaven is to believe in the eternal nature of those bonds. It follows that if one were to share a bond with God that it would be eternal. That is an eternal element of the Aposolic Church that is shared with heaven and continues crystalizing the Kingdom of God.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

<Hi Lora, That would be a reasonable assumption even though you do not agree. Our human images have always protrayed angels with having wings. Believe it or not there are five different catagories of angels in heaven. These creatures with wings are Angels.As I said the Elders are aware because the Holy Angels revealed it to them. I hope I cleared up your misunderstanding about the great multitude issue.Again its your oppinion without proof that they are praying for us. God Bless.>

What do you mean by our “human images”?

I know catholic tradition has portrayed angels with wings in artwork and such.
I don’t know where it says in the bible that creatures with wings must be angels.
Anyways - it still doesn’t refute what is clearly portrayed in the Book of Revelations - that is, heavenly souls who are clearly aware of earthly events, concerned, and who pray about them.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are incapable of intercession.

Hi Lora, Scripture mentions Angels and Saints only in the throne room that I know of. The 4 creatures are Angels who do nothing but surround the center of the throne room and praise God forevever.Boy,are the special, I guess that job is taken? God Bless

 

[TTM]

Hi all,

It looks like edwinG has started a new thread, on approximately the same topic. Please see Praying to the saints who are resting.

God bless,
TTM

 

[Lorarose]

<Hi Lora, Scripture mentions Angels and Saints only in the throne room that I know of. The 4 creatures are Angels who do nothing but surround the center of the throne room and praise God forevever.Boy,are the special, I guess that job is taken? God Bless>

Where exactly does it specify that only Angels and Saints are allowed in the throne room?
Anyways - there are 2 points we are dancing around here.

First and foremost…Revelations clearly describes heavenly saints who are aware of earthly events. You continue to avoid this reality.
You want to evade this issue by discussing HOW the saints came to know about earthly events (which leads to our 2nd, less relevant point we are discussing concerning angels and wings).
What I’m saying is WHY DOES IT MATTER HOW THEY CAME TO LEARN OF EARTHLY EVENTS?
All that matters is they do, indeed, know about events on earth.
They are portrayed (specifically the martyrs) as appealing to God concerning these events and God responding to their concerns.
This is prayer.

As for the whole wing thing…what I was trying to show you is that your understanding of angels and wings does not come from scripture.
Do you know of any scriptural verses where angels are portrayed as having wings?
We have come to having a common perception of angels of having wings because of christian art throughout the centuries.
I was trying to show you that not all of your beliefs are coming straight from the bible.

There is no scriptural basis for the belief that heavenly souls are incapable of intercession.

 

[mlchance]

Lorarose:

As for the whole wing thing…what I was trying to show you is that your understanding of angels and wings does not come from scripture. Do you know of any scriptural verses where angels are portrayed as having wings? We have come to having a common perception of angels of having wings because of christian art throughout the centuries.

Angels are described in Scripture as having wings. Emphases added:

“And the sound of the cherubims’ wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.” Ezekiel 10:5.

“And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.” Revelation 4:6-8.

“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.” Isaiah 6:1-2.

– Mark L. Chance.