Protestant Christians: Any problem with sola scriptura?

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While I tend to have Catholic sympathies, I am an Anglican, and thus technically protestant. I cannot even BEGIN to list all of the problems with sola scriptura.

Maybe this will suffice:
Not only are there specific mentions of appeal to sacred tradition in the bible, but the term sola scriptura first appears in the writings of a certain Dr Luther :rolleyes:
👍

Thanks for your honesty.

Faithful Anglicans are very rational and I like how they still use tradition and the 7 books Luther ‘removed’ for teaching purposes. If you are a Baptist you will probably go your whole life not even knowing those books exist.

Oh and your liturgy is beautiful.
 
👍

Thanks for your honesty.

Faithful Anglicans are very rational and I like how they still use tradition and the 7 books Luther ‘removed’ for teaching purposes. If you are a Baptist you will probably go your whole life not even knowing those books exist.

Oh and your liturgy is beautiful.
Which liturgy are you referring to? We have several. The Semi-Protestant 1549, the Calvinist 1552 and 1662, the more Catholic 1928, the modernistic (ugh) 1979, and the truly sacrificial one of 1637
 
Which liturgy are you referring to? We have several. The Semi-Protestant 1549, the Calvinist 1552 and 1662, the more Catholic 1928, the modernistic (ugh) 1979, and the truly sacrificial one of 1637
Sorry, should have clarified, we used 1928 when I was Anglican.
 
Not sure Dr Luther ever used the term.

Jon
I do not see it used in the Augsburg confession, either, but the principle is certainly there.

All of the Reformation confessions elevate the authority of Scripture over any other conceivable authority, including the testimony of angels. Luther believed the Scriptures alone are inerrant. Sola Scriptura as the supreme norm of ecclesiastical authority rests ultimately on the belief that only the Word of God can be without error.

Martin Luther is well known for his declaration at the Diet of Worms: “Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason-I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other-my conscience is captive to the Word of God.”
 
I do not see it used in the Augsburg confession, either, but the principle is certainly there.

All of the Reformation confessions elevate the authority of Scripture over any other conceivable authority, including the testimony of angels. Luther believed the Scriptures alone are inerrant. Sola Scriptura as the supreme norm of ecclesiastical authority rests ultimately on the belief that only the Word of God can be without error.

Martin Luther is well known for his declaration at the Diet of Worms: “Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason-I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other-my conscience is captive to the Word of God.”
Those quote from alwayswill’s post (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13738609&postcount=560) also lean heavily on Scpripture’s authority above all else. Yet, we have to consider other things they have said and recognized about the aspect of Church interpretation and Confirmation of Tradition not explicit in Scripture alone.

It can be a fine line between holding Scripture up the the measure it is, the Word of God, and making its interpretation subject to ourselves over the Magisterium.
 
Hi Jon,
Not sure Dr Luther ever used the term. [Sola Scriptura]

Jon
Whether or not Luther ever used the term ‘Sola Scriptura’ is not the point. The point is that it was Luther who introduced the concept of Sola Scriptura into Christendom. Prior to him, everyone who taught Scripture Alone and refused to be corrected by the Church, was declared a heretic, just as Luther also was.

That Luther is ‘responsible’ for Sola Scriptura’s introduction into ‘mainstream’ Western Christianity is irrefutable.

Speaking of Luther’s pre-95 Theses days in the monastery (probably pre 1515): “Once he was fully prepared to understand just what the Bible did teach on the doctrines of sin, grace, penance, and salvation,** he was ready to rebuild the whole system on theology on the basis of his own exegesis** and study the Bible in the original languages. **Luther discovered Sola Scriptura, therefore, long before he was prepared to say what the Bible taught in all matters of doctrine.” **(Lutheran) E. G. Schwiebert, “Luther and His Times”, pg. 174

In addition to Luther ‘discovering Sola Scriptura’ here we learn that as late as 2 years prior to his Revolt, Luther was not ‘prepared to say what the Bible taught in all matters of doctrine.’ This seems to say that Luther was nowhere near ready to begin to challenge the doctrines of the 1500 year old Catholic Church in 1517.

“**Among the apostolic fathers, one will search on vain to discover a formally outlined doctrine of Scripture such as may be found in modern theology textbooks. The doctrine of Scripture did not become an independent locus of theology until the sixteenth century. **What we do find throughout the writing of the apostolic fathers is a continual and consistant appeal to the Old Testament and to the Apostles teaching. During these first decades following Christ, however, we have no evidence demonstrating that the Church considered the Apostles teaching to be entirely confined to written documents………As already noted, we have broad scholarly agreement that Scripture and tradition were not mutualy exclusive concepts in the mind of the early fathers. The concept of ‘tradition,’ when used by these fathers, is simply used to designate the body of doctrine which was committed to the Church by the Lord and his Apostles, whether through verbal or written communication.” Mathison, “The Shape of Sola Scriptura”, pg. 20-21

Here we learn that Sola Scriptura was NOT a belief or practice or ‘tradition’ or anything of the early Church.

“For us in the twentieth century, his [Luther’s] answer cannot be convincing, because application of the Reformation principal of sola scriptura, the Scriptures alone, has not brought the certainty he (Luther) anticipated. **It has in fact been responsible for a multiplicity of explanations and interpretation that seems to render absurd any dependence on the clarity of the Scriptures. **In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries post-Reformation Protestantism tried out many variants of “fundamentalism” to counter the trend, often declaring the letter of the Scriptures sacrosanct. But even desperate rescue missions cannot breath new life into a motto that was once so persuasive: as God truly became incarnate in Jesus, so His spirit became inerrant truth in the Holy Scriptures.” (Reformed biographer of Luther) Heiko Oberman, (Reformed Scholar), “Luther, Man between God and the Devil”, pg. 220-1

Oberman points out here that Sola Scriptura, which he identifies with Luther, “has in fact been responsible for a multiplicity of explanations and interpretation that seems to render absurd any dependence on the clarity of the Scriptures”

Not only did Luther ‘discover’ Sola Scriptura, he also in the exact same manner ‘discovered’ Private Interpretation, which has been AT LEAST as destructive to Christian unity as has Sola Scriptura. The evidence from Scholars of all stripes tying Luther to Private Interpretation is also irrefutable, and probably should be posted here.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
 
Hi Jon,

Whether or not Luther ever used the term ‘Sola Scriptura’ is not the point. The point is that it was Luther who introduced the concept of Sola Scriptura into Christendom. Prior to him, everyone who taught Scripture Alone and refused to be corrected by the Church, was declared a heretic, just as Luther also was.

That Luther is ‘responsible’ for Sola Scriptura’s introduction into ‘mainstream’ Western Christianity is irrefutable.

Speaking of Luther’s pre-95 Theses days in the monastery (probably pre 1515): “Once he was fully prepared to understand just what the Bible did teach on the doctrines of sin, grace, penance, and salvation,** he was ready to rebuild the whole system on theology on the basis of his own exegesis** and study the Bible in the original languages. Luther discovered Sola Scriptura, therefore, long before he was prepared to say what the Bible taught in all matters of doctrine.” (Lutheran) E. G. Schwiebert, “Luther and His Times”, pg. 174

In addition to Luther ‘discovering Sola Scriptura’ here we learn that as late as 2 years prior to his Revolt, Luther was not ‘prepared to say what the Bible taught in all matters of doctrine.’ This seems to say that Luther was nowhere near ready to begin to challenge the doctrines of the 1500 year old Catholic Church in 1517.

“**Among the apostolic fathers, one will search on vain to discover a formally outlined doctrine of Scripture such as may be found in modern theology textbooks. The doctrine of Scripture did not become an independent locus of theology until the sixteenth century. **What we do find throughout the writing of the apostolic fathers is a continual and consistant appeal to the Old Testament and to the Apostles teaching. During these first decades following Christ, however, we have no evidence demonstrating that the Church considered the Apostles teaching to be entirely confined to written documents………As already noted, we have broad scholarly agreement that Scripture and tradition were not mutualy exclusive concepts in the mind of the early fathers. The concept of ‘tradition,’ when used by these fathers, is simply used to designate the body of doctrine which was committed to the Church by the Lord and his Apostles, whether through verbal or written communication.” Mathison, “The Shape of Sola Scriptura”, pg. 20-21

Here we learn that Sola Scriptura was NOT a belief or practice or ‘tradition’ or anything of the early Church.

“For us in the twentieth century, his [Luther’s] answer cannot be convincing, because application of the Reformation principal of sola scriptura, the Scriptures alone, has not brought the certainty he (Luther) anticipated. **It has in fact been responsible for a multiplicity of explanations and interpretation that seems to render absurd any dependence on the clarity of the Scriptures. **In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries post-Reformation Protestantism tried out many variants of “fundamentalism” to counter the trend, often declaring the letter of the Scriptures sacrosanct. But even desperate rescue missions cannot breath new life into a motto that was once so persuasive: as God truly became incarnate in Jesus, so His spirit became inerrant truth in the Holy Scriptures.” (Reformed biographer of Luther) Heiko Oberman, (Reformed Scholar), “Luther, Man between God and the Devil”, pg. 220-1

Oberman points out here that Sola Scriptura, which he identifies with Luther, “has in fact been responsible for a multiplicity of explanations and interpretation that seems to render absurd any dependence on the clarity of the Scriptures”

Not only did Luther ‘discover’ Sola Scriptura, he also in the exact same manner ‘discovered’ Private Interpretation, which has been AT LEAST as destructive to Christian unity as has Sola Scriptura. The evidence from Scholars of all stripes tying Luther to Private Interpretation is also irrefutable, and probably should be posted here.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
You’re pretty obsessed with this Topper.
What difference does it make whether Luther believed this or not? That was 500 years ago. It doesn’t sound like modern Lutherans accept everything Luther said. And other branches of Protestantism created the modern concept of SS with far more layers than Luther. Why the constant harping on Luther and Lutherans?
 
Protestants should have a big problem with Sola Scriptura. It does not exist
 
He would use terms such as final authority , not only authority , which is why I use prima scriptura , not sola scriptura
👍

The Catholic Church does NOT exercise authority “over” Scripture, but on behalf of Scripture, and to fulfill what is lacking in Scripture.
 
Guan,
It isn’t a new, modern way. No one is bound to believe sola scriptura. It isn’t a teaching. It is a practice, a hermeneutical principle. Why on earth would I have to confess a belief in SS? How does a belief in SS impact my salvation?

The Augsburg Confession doesn’t require one to confess sola scriptura. I never have.
“Our churches teach…” Here are the articles of the CA

Nothing there about the way a communion determines doctrine, and if I have to confess it or not.

Jon
Great post Jon!

Thanks & God Bless
 
👍

The Catholic Church does NOT exercise authority “over” Scripture, but on behalf of Scripture, and to fulfill what is lacking in Scripture.
I like Peter Kreeft’s description. The Magisterium is like a teacher using the textbook, or like a rider on a horse. It is not that the Bible is lacking in anything, but that they complete each other, they complement each other. They are different kinds of things, mutually indispensable.

Dr. Kreeft converted from Calvinism to Catholicism.
 
I like Peter Kreeft’s description. The Magisterium is like a teacher using the textbook, or like a rider on a horse. It is not that the Bible is lacking in anything, but that they complete each other, they complement each other. They are different kinds of things, mutually indispensable.

Dr. Kreeft converted from Calvinism to Catholicism.
Yeah, when I said “lacking”, it’s in the sense of a need for an Interpretation. And I really try to express that Scripture “can” be interpreted by anyone, so long as they assent to the Magisterium when they learn that they are in contradiction to something it has Confirmed. Eventually all of us require the leadership in some way or another. It’s part of being a member of a body/family/Church.
 
This is such a great post. 👍
=guanophore;13739062]Maybe I am just dating myself. When I attended seminary in the 80’s it was taught to me as a doctrine (and still is by the authors of the textbooks I used). It was also taught as an hermeneutical princple.
Were they Lutherans? I know you know that there are differing usages, understandings.
I would think you would need to profess a belief in SS because you espouse the Augsburg Confession, which contains the principle of SS.
It impacts your salvation hugely, because your concept of how your soul is saved is influence by it. Other people, who also espouse SS, have different concepts of salvation. As a result their conduct and expresson of their Christian faith may be different. All of your posts make it clear you are not antinominalistic, yet there are other Christians who espouse SS who are (to my great sadness). I think it impacts their salvation.
It could. In fact, the LCMS makes this comment as well, that error can be dangerous. But it is not in the practice that one must bind one’s conscience to.
Well I went and read it again before I posted that, to make sure the concept was in there as clearly as I remembered it.
“…showing what manner of doctrine from the Holy Scriptures and the pure Word of God has been up to this time set forth in our lands…”
" But the Scripture teaches not…"
“This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures…”
"Concerning these opinions our teachers have given warning that they depart from the Holy Scriptures "
“…not of faith, which Scripture does not allow…”
"… hold anything contrary to the Canonical Scriptures of God…
There are many more, but it is plain that the doctrine/principle/practice of SS is a foundational element of the whole document. One may not be required to “confess” it, but one is certainly required to endorse it, since every thing else contained in it is based upon it.
Thank you listing this, because it indicates the basis upon which determine doctrine. Note, in all of these, there is no mention of the practice that arrives at these needs to be confessed. It is interesting that Randy Carson in this post on another thread asks me to “Show me a Church teaching that is not consistent with Scripture and at least implicit therein.” Isn’t the Catholic bound in some way to do exactly the same thing that is done in these statements? It is a great question, BTW, that I haven’t yet responded to (not much free time right now), but will.
I disagree. I think that whole section is one continual reference to how the doctrine was determined. It is replete with references that source the foundations of those doctrines, and the rationale as to why some were rejected and others retained.
"The above articles we desire to present in accordance with the edict of Your Imperial Majesty, in order to exhibit our Confession and let men see a summary of the doctrine of our teachers. "
Yes. It and the Apology consistently site scripture, and more so in the Apology, the Fathers and Tradition. And later in the BofC it is more explicit on how the Church determines doctrine, but it is not a doctrine itself, binding the conscience of the believer.
You said it well yourself, “One may not be required to “confess” it, but one is certainly required to endorse it,…”. I certainly think it makes sense to endorse the practice.
One reason for the split in modern Lutheran communions is that some of them have drifted away from the contents of this document, and begun to form other methods of determining doctrine that are contrary to what is stated in it!
More that they no longer claim a quia subcription to either the confessions or scripture, but yes.

Jon
 
I’m honestly not following this claim Jon. It’s not necessary for all to profess a doctrine in order for it to be a doctrine. It was already professed. You either practice it’s teaching and principle, or you dont. But it is what it is.

Here is a website made to “correct” Catholics, where it is referred to as a doctrine:

justforcatholics.org/a74.htm

And here is the Webster’s definition of doctrine:

Full Definition of doctrine
  1. archaic teaching, instruction
2 a something that is taught

b a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief dogma

c a principle of law established through past decisions

d a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations

e a military principle or set of strategies
Is it Lutheran, Michael? Which of these would a Catholic such as yourself consider the right definition?

Jon
 
He would use terms such as final authority , not only authority , which is why I use prima scriptura , not sola scriptura
I think, considering how the term sola scriptura is now used by modern evangelicals and others, this in some ways describes the Lutheran practice better.

Jon
 
=rcwitness;13740687]No. Is SS exclusive to the Lutheran theology?
Yes. And no. The way we practice sola scriptura may, or may not, be exclusive to us, but I’m certainly not going to defend what others do (unless they are unfairly accused).
I think all of them are appropriate.
Okay. Of course, you would agree that some just don’t apply. Yes?

Jon
 
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