Protestant Christians: Any problem with sola scriptura?

[JonNC]

Protestants should have a big problem with Sola Scriptura. It does not exist

Thanks, Michael. I’m pretty sure that we understand it in such a way that it does exist.
But I’s ask that you think of it this way:
I could say that papal supremacy doesn’t exist. But the fact is that, for Catholics in communion with the Pope, it does indeed exist, whether I agree with it or not.
You might not see it as “existing”, but we understand the practice, and know the practice does indeed exist.

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

Thanks, Michael. I’m pretty sure that we understand it in such a way that it does exist.

Then where do you keep it?

But I’s ask that you think of it this way:
I could say that papal supremacy doesn’t exist. But the fact is that, for Catholics in communion with the Pope, it does indeed exist, whether I agree with it or not.
You might not see it as “existing”, but we understand the practice, and know the practice does indeed exist.

True that dawg!

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Regarding the status of SS as a doctrine or not, there is an interesting artcle on the Lutheran Theology website. While it is written by an Anglican, James Kiefer, I think it reflects well Lutheran thinking.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Not only did Luther ‘discover’ Sola Scriptura, he also in the exact same manner ‘discovered’ Private Interpretation, which has been AT LEAST as destructive to Christian unity as has Sola Scriptura. The evidence from Scholars of all stripes tying Luther to Private Interpretation is also irrefutable, and probably should be posted here.

God Bless You Jon, Topper

Rather, let us strive to stay on the thread topic.

 

[Michael68]

Thanks, Michael. I’m pretty sure that we understand it in such a way that it does exist.
But I’s ask that you think of it this way:
I could say that papal supremacy doesn’t exist. But the fact is that, for Catholics in communion with the Pope, it does indeed exist, whether I agree with it or not.
You might not see it as “existing”, but we understand the practice, and know the practice does indeed exist.

Jon

1 Timothy 3:15 Says the Church is the pillar of truth. Not scripture. If it was scripture, then this statement is not true. Remember that scripture does not contradict itself

 

[rcwitness]

1 Timothy 3:15 Says the Church is the pillar of truth. Not scripture. If it was scripture, then this statement is not true. Remember that scripture does not contradict itself

Or how about this passage?

Ephesians 3:9-11

“…and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

…but you said SS does not exist. Not a very accurate accusation.

 

[guanophore]

I think, considering how the term sola scriptura is now used by modern evangelicals and others, this in some ways describes the Lutheran practice better.

Jon

Yes I agree.

 

[Michael68]

Or how about this passage?

Ephesians 3:9-11

“…and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

…but you said SS does not exist. Not a very accurate accusation.

It doesn’t exist in your quote either. You have proven with this quote that the Church is the pillar. not scripture

 

[rcwitness]

It doesn’t exist in your quote either

that quote wasn’t to show SS exists!

It was to show that Scripture came out of the Church, for the Church and the Church is able to authentically confirm Scripture and Tradition, and apply it to doctrine.

 

[Topper17]

Hi guano,

Rather, let us strive to stay on the thread topic.

I always find it interesting when people are advised to stay on topic. Sometimes, it seems perfectly acceptable to wander all over the place, and at other times, even an extremely closely connected topic seem to be off limits.

This particular thread is about “problems with Sola Scriptura”, and in fact, one of the biggest problems with Sola Scriptura, is that, ultimately, it leads to some form of Private Interpretation. In order to correctly understand the problems associated with these two extremely closely related issues, understanding their origin is crucial.

 

[Michael68]

that quote wasn’t to show SS exists!

It was to show that Scripture came out of the Church, for the Church and the Church is able to authentically confirm Scripture and Tradition, and apply it to doctrine.

What’s the problem? I don’t support SS. Do you?

 

[rcwitness]

What’s the problem? I don’t support SS. Do you?

No… my quote was to add to your Timothy quote. But I didn’t agree with your statement that SS doesn’t exist. And Jon gave good reason why. It is professed, believed, taught and practiced. But don’t try to get a definition of one mind and judgment, I guess.

 

[Michael68]

No… my quote was to add to your Timothy quote. But I didn’t agree with your statement that SS doesn’t exist. And Jon gave good reason why. It is professed, believed, taught and practiced. But don’t try to get a definition of one mind and judgment, I guess.

So is magic, does that make it real? (Not illusions )

 

[alwayswill]

1 Timothy 3:15 Says the Church is the pillar of truth. Not scripture. If it was scripture, then this statement is not true. Remember that scripture does not contradict itself

An absolutely great verse !!!
I use it all of the time.

But the Greek and nearly EVERY translation has it different that what you just quoted.

The Greek has the Definite Article “the” before the word truth;
as in “the pillar of **THE **truth” vs “the pillar of truth”
(Check it out and see if it is true: biblehub.com/1_timothy/3-15.htm)

Does it matter ?
of course; and here is an example why.
What is the difference between
the pillar of gold
and
the pillar of THE gold?

In the first phrase, the pillar is made out of gold ;
in the second phrase the pillar supports the gold

The correct translation of 1 Timothy 3:15
is that the the pillar and foundation of the truth.
meaning it the the church itself is not “the truth” but the church is to support “the truth”

and what does Scripture say is the truth ?
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life >John 14:6
Sanctify them by **the **truth; your word is truth. >John 17:17

Jesus Christ and the Word of God are THE truth…
The church (ekklesia / all believers) are to uphold THE truth (Jesus Christ and the Word of God)

As I am part of the ekklesia: I am to uphold Jesus Christ and the Word of God; THE Truth

 

[Michael68]

An absolutely great verse !!!
I use it all of the time.

But the Greek and nearly EVERY translation has it different that what you just quoted.
The Greek has the Definite Article “the” before the word truth; as in “the pillar of **THE **truth” vs “the pillar of truth”
(Check it out and see if it is true: biblehub.com/1_timothy/3-15.htm)
Does it matter ?

of course; and here is an example why.
What is the difference between
the pillar of gold
and
the pillar of THE gold?

In the first phrase, the pillar is made out of gold ;
in the second phrase the pillar supports the gold

The correct translation of 1 Timothy 3:15
is that the the pillar and foundation of the truth.
meaning it the the church itself is not “the truth” but the church is to support “the truth”

and what does the Bible say is the truth ?
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life >John 14:6
Sanctify them by **the **truth; your word is truth. >John 17:17

Jesus Christ and the word of God is THE truth…
The church (ekklesia / all believers) are to uphold THE truth (Jesus Christ and the word of God)

Hi!!!
Thank you for your insight. It is my belief that the Church upholds the truth

 

[alwayswill]

Hi!!!
Thank you for your insight. It is my belief that the Church upholds the truth

you said :

Originally Posted by Michael68 View Post
1 Timothy 3:15 Says the Church is the pillar of truth. Not scripture. If it was scripture, then this statement is not true. <<

So I ask:
Is Scripture (as the Word of God) THE truth?
“Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” >John 17:17
You said “Remember that scripture does not contradict itself”

Is 1 Timothy 3:15 saying the Church is THE truth or that the Church upholds THE truth?
(feel free to check other translations and the Greek)

 

[Michael68]

you said :

Originally Posted by Michael68 View Post
1 Timothy 3:15 Says the Church is the pillar of truth. Not scripture. If it was scripture, then this statement is not true. Remember that scripture does not contradict itself<<

Yes, scripture is the truth. The Church upholds that truth. Scripture is not the final authority. Whenever conflict over scripture arises, there is an authority, the Church as written in 1 Timothy 3:15

 

[alwayswill]

Yes, scripture is the truth. The Church upholds that truth. Scripture is not the final authority. Whenever conflict over scripture arises, there is an authority, the Church as written in 1 Timothy 3:15

Is 1 Timothy 3:15 saying the** Church is THE truth **or that the Church upholds THE truth?
(feel free to check various translations and the Greek)
biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/3-15.htm
biblehub.com/1_timothy/3-15.htm

 

[alwayswill]

Yes, scripture is the truth. The Church upholds that truth. Scripture is not the final authority. Whenever conflict over scripture arises, there is an authority, the Church as written in 1 Timothy 3:15

**
Do God breathed writings** (all Scripture is God breathed; pasa graphe theopneustos)
have the same authority as God speaking from His throne?

John 17:17 Sanctify them by** the **truth; your word is truth.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven…

Psalm 89:34
I will not break my covenant, Nor alter what my lips have uttered.

Psalm 119:142
…Your law is truth.

Psalm 119:151
…All your commandments are truth.

Psalm 119:160
All of your words are truth. Every one of your righteous ordinances endures forever.

Isaiah 55:9-11
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it

 

[guanophore]

Protestants should have a big problem with Sola Scriptura. It does not exist

This is an odd thing to say. It is like saying Protestants don’t exist, or the Reformation never happened. Just because you don’t like it, or dont’ agree with it does not mean it ceases to exist.