Protestant Christians: Any problem with sola scriptura?

[benhur]

But ben…so how does scripture convey or give the truth?

Well thru Words. But I agree they are not said in a vacuum, they have a context. just as a raindrop needs a particle to condense on .

Also any way it can." For wisdom cries out from the rooftops". For as His Word goes forth thru scripture, thru the oral preacher, thru parents, thru the church, thru an office, or council, thru nature, and is made alive, quickened to us by the Holy Ghost, the Godhead, our ultimate teacher. In the end, as Elihu pointed out to Job, “Age should teach wisdom, but does not always.But God gives understanding to a man”.

I know the CC teaches God intends truth ( of scripture also) to rest upon and thru the Catholic Church. Parts of that are in my above answer, but that is as close as I can get without getting sectarian.

Blessings

 

[alwayswill]

But ben…so how does scripture convey or give the truth?

several examples include
apekrithe ho Jesous amen amen lego soi…

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you…"

Is there any doubt that those verses conveyed truth?

 

[alwayswill]

Scripture is “inerrant” in its message of salvation. Depends on what you mean by “error”.

From the previous posts, I assume you have a better understanding of what it means to be infallible?

by error: I mean something that is declared to true which is in fact not true.

That does not mean that similes, metaphors, allegories, hyperbole, common expressions, and figures of speech are considered errors.

Most Sola Scriptura practicing Christians hold to
Scripture is “infallible” (incapable of error)in its message of salvation and all other topics.

Scripture is “inerrant” (contains no error) in its message of salvation and all other topics.

From the previous posts, I assume you do not hold to those two statements.
I am not sure what other Catholics believe about Scripture

If you are more interested in a widely accepted statement on the “protestant” view of infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture.

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy with Exposition
bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

Article XI.
WE AFFIRM that Scripture, having been given by divine inspiration, is infallible, so that, far from misleading us, it is true and reliable in all the matters it addresses.

WE DENY that it is possible for the Bible to be at the same time infallible and errant in its assertions. Infallibility and inerrancy may be distinguished, but not separated.

Article XII.
WE AFFIRM that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.

WE DENY that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.

 

[rcwitness]

by error: I mean something that is declared to true which is in fact not true.

That does not mean that similes, metaphors, allegories, hyperbole, common expressions, and figures of speech are considered errors.

Most Sola Scriptura practicing Christians hold to
Scripture is “infallible” (incapable of error)in its message of salvation and all other topics.

Scripture is “inerrant” (contains no error) in its message of salvation and all other topics.

From the previous posts, I assume you do not hold to those two statements.
I am not sure what other Catholics believe about Scripture

I believe the Catholic Church does not use the term “Infallible” with Scripture only because She already believes Scripture to be free and protected from error from the beginning. It will not have error tomorrow, or the next day, or the day after that, etc.

The term Infallibility can certainly apply to Scripture as well. The distinction in its use, is most likely that Infallibility is attributed to the Church’s Teaching authority. For example, the Church Infallibly declared the canon of Scripture. She did not “make” Scripture Infallible, because that was God’s doing. She declared, in her capacity to do so, in the promise that His Holy Spirit Grants Her with His keys. So She, under lawful conditions, is incapable of error when defining and defending what is Sacred Revelation and its meaning.

Scripture, in itself, does not explicitly define its Inerrancy or Infallibility. The Church must interpret this and declare it with Her authority from Christ. Neither do we have a canon from the Apostles themselves. The Church Infallibly declared what is Scripture and what is not Scripture.

 

[alwayswill]

I believe the Catholic Church does not use the term “Infallible” with Scripture only because She already believes Scripture to be free and protected from error from the beginning. It will not have error tomorrow, or the next day, or the day after that, etc.

The term Infallibility can certainly apply to Scripture as well. The distinction in its use, is most likely that Infallibility is attributed to the Church’s Teaching authority. For example, the Church Infallibly declared the canon of Scripture. She did not “make” Scripture Infallible, because that was God’s doing. She declared, in her capacity to do so, in the promise that His Holy Spirit Grants Her with His keys. So She, under lawful conditions, is incapable of error when defining and defending what is Sacred Revelation and its meaning.

thank you for your reply:
If “Infallible” is defined as incapable of being in error: (and it is)
I ask does the Catholic Church teach that it is impossible for Scripture to in error?

I think the answer is yes: it is impossible for a God breathed writing (aka Scripture) to be in error.

Am I correct on the Catholic view?

 

[rcwitness]

thank you for your reply:
If “Infallible” is defined as incapable of being in error: (and it is)
I ask does the Catholic Church teach that it is impossible for Scripture to in error?

I think the answer is yes: it is impossible for a God breathed writing (aka Scripture) to be in error.

Am I correct on the Catholic view?

Yes, and check my edited remarks in the post above.

 

[alwayswill]

Yes, and check my edited remarks in the post above.

your edited part included

---

"Scripture, in itself, does not explicitly define its Inerrancy or Infallibility. The Church must interpret this and declare it with Her authority from Christ. Neither do we have a canon from the Apostles themselves. The Church Infallibly declared what is Scripture and what is not Scripture. "​

Previous Catholic posters have confirmed Scripture is Scripture the moment it was written; whether Genesis, Isaiah, or the Letter to the Romans, even before another human eye has seen the God breathed writing; it is in fact Scripture.

And because it is Scripture (a God breathed writing) it is infallible.

Is it correct to say the moment Scripture is written (prior to any declaration form the Church) it is infallible (incapable of error) ?

 

[rcwitness]

your edited part included

Previous Catholic posters have confirmed Scripture is Scripture the moment it was written; whether Genesis, Isaiah, or the Letter to the Romans, even before another human eye has seen the God breathed writing; it is in fact Scripture.

And because it is Scripture (a God breathed writing) it is infallible.

Is it correct to say the moment Scripture is written (prior to any declaration form the Church) it is infallible (incapable of error) ?

yes to all. And the Church Infallibly declared which books are Sacred Scripture and which are not. And the Church formulated and defined the doctrine of Inerrancy, since it is not from Scripture alone.

 

[rcwitness]

your edited part included

Previous Catholic posters have confirmed Scripture is Scripture the moment it was written; whether Genesis, Isaiah, or the Letter to the Romans, even before another human eye has seen the God breathed writing; it is in fact Scripture.

And because it is Scripture (a God breathed writing) it is infallible.

Is it correct to say the moment Scripture is written (prior to any declaration form the Church) it is infallible (incapable of error) ?

The oldest Bible we have is the Codex Sinaiticus.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

It contains two books not in the Official Canon. How do we know that these two books, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas are not God breathed, and so Inerrant?

 

[PJM]

YES
Absolutely

You can quote any 100 verses you choose and we will say we agree with them AND believe them.
Scripture is inerrant and infallible 100% of the time…

I’m not sure what you have heard; but Sola Scriptura practicing Christians believe all the verses of Scripture

**GREAT,

Then please share YOUR understanding of the Following:**

Mt. 16: 18-19
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ** And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind** upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be
loosed also in heaven.

Jn.17: 17-20
[17]** Sanctify them in truth** {the Apostles}.Thy word is truth. [18]** As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world**. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself,** that they also may be sanctified in truth.** [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

Mt 28:19-20
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold** I am with you all days,** even to the consummation of the world

Jn.20: 20-23.
[21] He** {Jesus} said therefore to them {the Apostles} again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.**

Jn 6: 47-57
[47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. [56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

God Bless you my friend,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Because of what Scripture is: it is infallible

I do not know of ANY SS practicing Christian who agree 100% on everything their pastors say about verses of Scripture.

Did you know that SS practicing Christians do not consider their pastors infallible?

**Is you your view that an infallible authority guarantees unity of beliefs among the fatihful followers? **

Is you your view that misunderstanding of an infallible authority diminishes that authority?

Did you know that SS practicing Christians do not consider their pastors infallible?

Nor should they

Nor CAN they be unless they are teaching in full-agreement with the Catholic Church. Amen

**Is you your view that an infallible authority guarantees unity of beliefs among the fatihful followers? **

No What is DOES do is expose the TRUTH to the light {singular per defined issue}

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

???
Are you saying that 1 Corinthians 7:12 is not a God breathed verse?
Are you saying that 1 Corinthians 7:12 is Paul’s and not the word of God?

Mt 28:19-20

[19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world".

B]John 15:26
But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17

16] All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, [17] That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."

My friend, Everything TAUGHT in the Bible is Inspired & PROTECTED by God. AMEN!

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Got it: I’ll never claim humans are infallible

THEN dear friend TRASH you’re Bible It was AUTHORED BY HUMANS. Amen

Note I have checked 3 different online dictionaries: infallible is an adjective or noun; not an action verb

and Paplope agrees with the.merriam-webster defintion
“not capable of being wrong or making mistakes : not fallible”

so I am asking a very simple question

Do Catholics believe it is possible for God breathed writings to contain error?

EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS TRUE BUT EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS NOT “FACTUAL”

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

The Scriptures Are incapable of error , they are infallible

OK:shrug:

So these are TRUE?

Mark 9:46
And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God, than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

And what about Parables?

Help us out here my friend,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

apart form faith and morals
Are Scriptures free form errors on other topics?

for example: Could the Creator be wrong about His Creation in the very writings He breathed out?

PLEASE READ POST #'S 423, 424 & 425

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

several examples include
apekrithe ho Jesous amen amen lego soi…

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you…"

Is there any doubt that those verses conveyed truth?

So then you believe, UNDERSTAND, and ACCEPT

Mt 16:15-19

Jn 6: 47-56

Jb 20: 21-23

Mt 28:19-20:shrug:

God Bless you my friend,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

by error: I mean something that is declared to true which is in fact not true.

That does not mean that similes, metaphors, allegories, hyperbole, common expressions, and figures of speech are considered errors.

Most Sola Scriptura practicing Christians hold to
Scripture is “infallible” (incapable of error)in its message of salvation and all other topics.

Scripture is “inerrant” (contains no error) in its message of salvation and all other topics.

From the previous posts, I assume you do not hold to those two statements.
I am not sure what other Catholics believe about Scripture

If you are more interested in a widely accepted statement on the “protestant” view of infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture.

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy with Exposition
bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

Article XI.
WE AFFIRM that Scripture, having been given by divine inspiration, is infallible, so that, far from misleading us, it is true and reliable in all the matters it addresses.

WE DENY that it is possible for the Bible to be at the same time infallible and errant in its assertions. Infallibility and inerrancy may be distinguished, but not separated.

Article XII.
WE AFFIRM that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.

WE DENY that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.

Nicely done! Thanks,

 

[PJM]

thank you for your reply:
If “Infallible” is defined as incapable of being in error: (and it is)
I ask does the Catholic Church teach that it is impossible for Scripture to in error?

I think the answer is yes: it is impossible for a God breathed writing (aka Scripture) to be in error.

Am I correct on the Catholic view?

NOT IN ANY OF IT’S TEACHINGS

 

[guanophore]

The Scriptures Are incapable of error , they are infallible

No, Starwarsfan2, that is not the case. The Scriptures are considered inspired and inerrant because they are God Breathed (theopneustos).

Fallibily is a characteristic of a person, not a text, however Holy. To be in fallible requires a will (ability to choose) which the Scriptures do not have. One also must be held accountable for ones acts, or have the ability to be responsible for what one says and does. Only in such a case can a person be fallible, or capable of falling. Intellect and will are not qualities of the Holy Writings.

This is the greatest flaw of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. People believe they are “going by what the scriptures say” when in fact, they are going by what they believe they say, or what they interpret them to mean. It is the person who decides and acts, not the Holy Writings.

 

[alwayswill]

The oldest Bible we have is the Codex Sinaiticus.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

It contains two books not in the Official Canon. How do we know that these two books, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas are not God breathed, and so Inerrant?

In this forum; it is my intention to accurately present the views of Sola Scriptura practicing Protestants.
We believe Scripture is infallible and inerrant because of what Scripture is (its the characteristics or attributes)
Not because of what is Scripture. (which books are Scripture)