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shondrea
Guest
Oh gosh, I didn’t mean to start a fight here…
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Pretty typical CAF thread - Protestants are invited to share something, then torn to shreds for answering the question.
Note to Protestants: avoid these threads. It is a set up.
Note to Protestants: avoid these threads. It is a set up.
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shondrea
Guest
But I didn’t write this to set anyone up; I’m honestly and truly interested to know Protestant thoughts on communion. And if their view is less than flattering to the Catholic view, well, they aren’t offending me, at least, by telling me what they believe, even if I don’t agree with it.
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blazerdave
Guest
Shondrea, I’m a forum newbie so I’ll take the bait! 
It is an interesting topic, after all.
My Anglican brothers and sisters tend to have a very high understanding of the Eucharist. Many basically hold the Lutheran view, and there are also quite a few among our ranks who claim to hold the Catholic view. I (and those with whom I worship on Sundays) absolutely believe in the Real Presence, though I would never attempt to define it. We still kneel and bow towards the altar at the appropriate times in reverence of the Presence of the Lord. Though most Anglicans don’t use the explicit language of Sacrifice of the Mass in describing our liturgy, I think we all understand the reality when our priests speak the words “Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us” each Sunday.
It is an interesting topic, after all.My Anglican brothers and sisters tend to have a very high understanding of the Eucharist. Many basically hold the Lutheran view, and there are also quite a few among our ranks who claim to hold the Catholic view. I (and those with whom I worship on Sundays) absolutely believe in the Real Presence, though I would never attempt to define it. We still kneel and bow towards the altar at the appropriate times in reverence of the Presence of the Lord. Though most Anglicans don’t use the explicit language of Sacrifice of the Mass in describing our liturgy, I think we all understand the reality when our priests speak the words “Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us” each Sunday.
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shondrea
Guest
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer! I guess it can vary not just from denomiations, but also WITHIN denomiations?
I wasn’t trying to lure in unsuspecting Protestants into a trap, just trying to settle a little curiosity! I don’t know much about most Protestant, Orthodox or Anglican faiths, except for the ones who…aren’t on the most friendly terms with Catholics.
I wasn’t trying to lure in unsuspecting Protestants into a trap, just trying to settle a little curiosity! I don’t know much about most Protestant, Orthodox or Anglican faiths, except for the ones who…aren’t on the most friendly terms with Catholics.
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blazerdave
Guest
It can definitely vary within denominations, and we’re especially guilty of that haha. We try to excuse it away as “leaving room for issues of conscience,” but that’s not always a good idea with important doctrines like this! But yeah, we kneel at the altar rail and have a very traditional feel (with Port for the wine). But I grew up Presbyterian, and they passed the plates with the tiny cups of grape juice a few times a year. It was basically the Baptist style that your friend mentioned to you. It was definitely more of a “memorial” feel; I don’t think that particular Presbyterian church believed in Real Presence at all.
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shondrea
Guest
Gosh, that just seems so foreign to me! I’ve never attended serive at another church before, so it seems so…odd
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Mickey
Guest
No one was torn to shreds. If the focus of your faith was attacked in an insulting article, I’m sure you would take issue with it also.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
The Catholic Church says that (a) my ordination is invalid, and (b) the Eucharist celebrated in our churches is invalid.
I certainly see my ordination and the Eucharist as focii in my faith - but I am not “taking issue” with Catholicism about it. What is the difference?
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Mickey
Guest
You are referring to an issue of apostolic succession. I do not know if anyone has insulted you about your standing with the Methodists or in the manner that you celebrate the Lord’s supper. If you have been attacked and insulted about this, it is unfortunate. But I will not stay quiet when the Holy Eucharist is attacked and insulted. :nope:
Since you are making this analogy, it sure seems like you are taking issue with it.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Sounds like a plan, then. I will no longer be silent when I am told that I do not have the full faith, that my ordination is invalid, and that our Eucharist is invalid. Those are official stances of the Catholic Church. They are equally insulting, when you come down to it. :nope:You are referring to an issue of apostolic succession. I do not know if anyone has insulted you about your standing with the Methodists or in the manner that you celebrate the Lord’s supper. If you have been attacked and insulted about this, it is unfortunate. But I will not stay quiet when the Holy Eucharist is attacked and insulted. :nope:
Since you are making this analogy, it sure seems like you are taking issue with it.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. So be it.
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BrianH
Guest
Some of you act like you were not familiar with the
Friends beliefs on this issue. It is a non-Catholic forum and the article explains their view.
I cannot imagine this is NEW to people…
Friends beliefs on this issue. It is a non-Catholic forum and the article explains their view.
I cannot imagine this is NEW to people…
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Mickey
Guest
I have read many of your posts. You are not always silent. The gander has protested often.
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Mickey
Guest
It is not about being something “new”. It is the way in which it was delivered.
But hey–the moderators have let it stand–so they are apparently okay with it.
Carry on people!
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Publisher
Guest
Evidently not. No one called Christ “meaningless and hypocritical”, what was deemed “meaningless and hypocritical” were those rites and rituals that are done by rote…those “rites and rituals” which do not engender a change in a persons life. I have no point of reference to express my belief that rites and rituals are in themselves effectual simply by eating a piece of bread and taking a sip of wine…belief in such rituals are not part of my faith tradition.
In your faith tradition, if a person simply viewed the emblems as “bread and wine” and had no inward belief or faith that they were any more than bread and wine…but took them anyway…and no belief that an inward change was even possible by taking the emblems…would the eucharist be effectual if no faith was even present? In your belief wouldn’t that person be “eating and drinking condemnation on themselves” EVEN if they themselves poo-pood the whole experience?
What you are asking of me is to state my belief in something I do not believe in…the quieston posed in this thread was not to restate for Catholics and Orthodox what YOU believe…but to state what the various Protestant traditions believe.
To BrianH’s point, this is not the first thread that I have stated the belief of Friends…and unless I am banned from CAF, it won’t be the last thread I participate in. I do not go out of my way to antagonize the various posters on this forum…I offer my comment, opinion and seek to explain Friends belief…there are some very Catholic/Orthodox beliefs that I simply cannot embrace…but I do not yell “insult” or “defamation” simply because someone else holds a different view.
“Communion after the manner of Friends” is as real to me as the eucharist is to you…I too believe in the literal Presence of Christ in the meeting for worship as firmly as you believe he literally becomes the present in the bread and wine even if they retain their form of bread and wine…for me to state that I believe that actually occurs would be a lie…are we to lie about what we believe to keep others from claiming “insult”?
I thought Catholicism and Orthodoxy was about Truth. To claim I believe something which I do not is not “living in that Center of Light and Truth”…it is living in deceit. I take no issue with your belief in the eucharist as the literal body and blood of Christ. If participating in the eucharist brings you closer to him…if by participation you “put on Christ” and through the eucharist you share in his Nature and he becomes Inward Reality proven by your “outward life”, then I rejoice with you.
I have participated in communion services in other traditions…BUT only when asked to participate and ONLY when it is understood that I do not believe anything “mytical or magical” is occuring to the bread and wine…but that the participation of the ritual is a Reflection of an Inward Reality which manifests itself in my life by becoming more like Christ…“spiritual commuion” is one term I have seen used here at CAF. I also let the priest or pastor know I have never undergone the ritual of water baptism either…it is a reflection of the One Baptism of the Spirit that truly regenerates…“baptism of desire” I can relate to.
In some cases the priest or pastor has recinded their invitation…and at other times they have still welcomed me at the “table of the Lord, as it is He who calls you to participate in the Sacred Meal, not us”…in such times I have participated.
I have attended several Catholic masses…out of deference to Catholic belief I have never gone forward…even when asked by the friends I went with. I attended a funeral mass for a Sister of Mercy I was acquainted with…I volunteered at an AIDS house they ran for women…a couple of the Sisters asked me go forward and receive the eucharist…I gently told them out of respect for the deceased sister’s belief…I could not in good conscience do so.
To participate in any eucharistic service without faith in it’s efficacy or participating in any eucharistic service and believe that my behavior and beliefs didn’t need to conform to all that belief in the eucharistic meal calls me to…IS HYPOCRITCAL…unless the eucharist is the catalyst to engender true Inward and Spiritual regeneration…it IS an empty ritual that damages the soul more by participating than abstaining…since I do not share your beliefs concerning the eucharist…I will not state that I do simply to appease your sense of “I’m insulted.”…I simply cannot.
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schaick
Guest
Beautiful thought!How can it be that the beliefs not shared by you of a different tradition is “insulting”?
I do not believe in your tradtions…but I am not “insulted” that you hold them.
Friends believe in the Real Presence of Christ among us in Meeting…that we do not share your particular belief in the “bread and wine” is hardly meant as an “insult” to you.
This type of reasoning is something that goes way beyond my understanding…how is it that someone else’s beliefs are “insulting” to you is beyond me.
“Communion occurs when the worshiper communes with God and with those who are gathered in the Lord’s name.” Friends do not seek to forbid partaking in the eucharist by other Christians…we may even join with them in partaking if we so desire AND we are asked to do so. If celebrating such rituals and rites brings one closer to Christ…we rejoice with you…we do not ask you to abandon your beliefs…we simply do not share them.
**Your statement is very good! **
I consider it the works part of our faith!
One of the reasons Friends do not put “faith” in rituals and rites is because unless those rituals and rites engender true spiritual change and cause the believer to go deeper into Christ…they are no effect
**if **partaking in the eucharist calls you to be gentle, merciful, compassionate, longsuffering with others and you see the face of Jesus in others…then Friends believe the “goal” of such “rituals” have been met.
if partaking in such rituals make no outward change…
**if **such rituals do not cause a deep spiritual awakening but instead cause anger and scorn for others…we wonder…why such stress is placed on “empty forms”
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O.S.Luke
Guest
And I have always done so with respect for Catholicism and its beliefs. I may disagree with them, but I respect them.I have read many of your posts. You are not always silent. The gander has protested often.
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Mickey
Guest
And I have seen you get quite angry–so there is no need to play the “innocent one”.
We all get perturbed at times.
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Mickey
Guest
Poo-pood??? Oh good one pub–you are digging yourself into a deeper hole. The individual knows if they are partaking with faith. It is nobody’s place to judge whether they are partaking worthily–not you—nor your “friends”.
And you did so by referencing a condescending and insulting article.
There you go! See! You can do this amicably!
Magical!!! Uh-oh–please do not relapse.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
I wasn’t playing innocent, nor even trying to. You may have the last word.And I have seen you get quite angry–so there is no need to play the “innocent one”.
We all get perturbed at times.
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