Protestant Consensus?

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josiah:
Everyone thank you for your feedback. You all gave me something to think about. However, I didn’t see any posts that tried to reconcile the fact that there are alot of errors in the apocrypha. I’m sure that most of you believe as I do in the inerrancy of Scripture. Including the apocrypha would seem to undermine that.

Peace
Josiah
But you’re working within a notion of inerrancy that you’ve come up with. By presuming that Biblical inerrancy entails freedom from mere historical/factual error, you eliminate literalism (which I wouldn’t mind you doing), which much of Protestant is at least inclined to, if not subscribers thereof, because it cannot be reconciled with some contradictions (such as conflicting sizes of armies, etc.). If these contradictions are no longer “errors” then your accusation against the deuterocanonicals carries much less weight.
The larger problem with this standard, however, is that it cannot be found in Scripture, which is supposed to be your sole source of teaching.
It also begs the question. If your standard of inerrancy is correct, those books should be excluded from the canon. But on the other hand, if those books are Scripture, your notion of inerrancy is incorrect.
The biggest problem, however, is that your standard excludes the Book of Daniel from the canon. Two errors that came immediately to my mind were
  1. Belshazzar is referred to as Nebuchadnezzar’s son. In fact, several kings intervened. The passage could be referring to Nabonidus, Belshazzar’s actual father. But this one could also be explained by the custom of referring to more distant ancestors as simply father. So I’ll give you that this is not necessarily an error. However…
  2. Darius the Mede supposedly conquered Babylon in this book. In reality, the kingdom of the Medes had already been conquered by Cyrus the Persian at this point in the narrative of Daniel and it was he who conquered Babylon. That means that the book of Daniel has a historical error and, by your reasoning, is not scriptural.
 
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michaelp:
Frankly, if I used the criteria that is used there to say that Christ did quote from the Deuterocanonicals, I could say that Christ quoted from Moby Dick. Besides, the main point is that he never quoted from the Deuterocanonicals referring to this as Scripture with the normal wording, “It is written” or “The Scriptures say . . .” as He (and the rest of the Apostles) does when referring to the Old Testament.

Would you agree that whatever Christ believed to be Scripture should be what we believe to be the Old Testament?
If you use that line of reasoning in determining canonocity, then you would have to reject over a third of the OT. Jesus and the Apostles don’t use the terminology “It is written” for a third of the OT, but that doesn’t mean that he rejected that third of it. That just isn’t a credible excuse for anyone to reject the deuterocanonicals, especially since Jesus, the Apostles, and the majority of the Early Church Fathers displayed an explicit use of them.
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michaelp:
If I am not mistaken, that is what we have been discussing. Do you mean references to books that have been written concerning this subject?
I was asking for specifically where this “overwhelming amount of unbiased research” is. Can you cite it (I’m not being sarcastic)? I would like to study this research (and its origins) for myself.
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michaelp:
Some Church fathers believed in some books of the Deuterocanonical books and some did not. When they did accept some, there was usually not agreement on which ones. The dispute went on until it was officially decided upon by Trent.
I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but Pope Damasus I at the Council of Rome in 382 AD decreed…

“Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the **universal Catholic Church ** accepts and what she must shun…”

He went on to list the Catholic Canon and he certainly understood that this was to be the belief of the whole (universal) Church. Then, at the Council of Hippo in 393 AD…

“[It has been decided] that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical Scriptures are as follows.(lists the Catholic Canon)…”

And this was affirmed again at Carthage in 397 AD and 418 AD. I think I can safely assume that you are going to tell me that these councils are non-authoritive and that the canon of Scripture was still disputed after these because they weren’t “ecumenical” councils, which is why you named Trent as being the council where the official declaration was made, implying that the RCC decided her canon AFTER the Protestant Reformation occured. However, the ecumenical council of Florence in 1442 reaffirmed what had taken place at Rome, Hippo, and Carthage by stating…

“It professes that one and the same God is the author of the Old and the New Testament – that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel – since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit.
It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows…(lists the Catholic Canon)”
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michaelp:
Christ and the Apostles never quote the Deuterocanonicals or even one representative book of the Greek canon as Scripture. It is debated whether they even referred to them at all. We can discuss individual instances if you would like. Do you know of any instances where even one of the Deuterocanonicals is quoted explicitly as Scripture? If so, I would like to discuss it.
Again, Jesus and the Apostles didn’t explicity quote (using your required terminology) from a third of the OT as Scripture, so I see that argument as void, but they did quote from the Septuagint which did contain the deuteros.

Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint using the terminology IT IS WRITTEN– “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).

So here, Jesus uses the form you asked for (it is written) and then refers to the Septuagint, containing the deuteros.
 
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michaelp:
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stumbler:
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michaelp:
The majority of the evidence suggests and Josiah has so well presented that the LXX probebly did not contain the Deuterocanonical books. . .
Where does Josiah make the point you claim? If you wish to make a new argument, then do so. But to then claim Josiah has presented it “so well” is very misleading.I did not say that it would be persuasive to you, I just said that he has done a good job . . . even if you disagee with his conclusions.
Hmmm. Perhaps I wasn’t clear.

  1. *] You claimed specifically: “The majority of the evidence suggests and Josiah has so well presented that the LXX probebly did not contain the Deuterocanonical books.”

    *] My point, again, is that Josiah made no such argument about the content of the LXX, persuasive, or otherwise. Your claim that he did is wholly inaccurate and misleading.

    Will you acknowledge your mis-statement?
 
Hi Michael! 👋
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michaelp:
Whatever Scripture Christ used we should use and accept
Jesus never quoted from Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ruth, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Obadiah, or Nahum. Should we accept them? Why or why not?
The overwhelming amount of evidence by unbiased research says that Christ and the Apostles did not use the Deuterocanonical.
Are you sure the researchers are unbiased? Doesn’t the evidence they present simply support what they already believe to be true? How is that unbiased?
That is why I find it persuasive that those who are not necessarily bound to “infallible” tradition (i.e. non-catholics) ALL come to the same conclusion–the deuterocanonicals are not part of the canon.
You don’t find it persuasive that every pre-Reformation bible had the apocrypha in them?
Here is my method with the New Testament: Whatever books that were written by an Apostle or close associate of an apostle (so that a living Apostle could validate), written in the first century, contain religious value, did not contradict previous revelation, and/or were accepted by the majority of the Body of Christ, I accept.
Is this the criterion that God would intended us to use? If so, how can we be sure and where did this criterion come from?
I do not see the Body of Christ as an institutional authority, but as a Spirit led body that has both individually and collectively the witness and power of the Holy Spirit within them
How do you believe that the “Spirit led body that has both individually and conllectively the witness and power of the Holy Spirit within them” functions as the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) in the world today?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Hi everyone! 👋

Deuterocanonical references in the NT:

Matthew

Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15
Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1
Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8
Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20
Top

Mark

Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5
Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15
Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22
Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35
Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15
Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14
Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18
Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17
Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1
Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2
Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s
Top

Luke

Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10
Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15
Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18
Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14
Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9
Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6
Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1
Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5
Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10
Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17
Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19
Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1
Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10
Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8
Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4
Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6
Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37
Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2
Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30]
Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17
Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22
Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7
Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5
Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18
Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22
Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26
Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34
Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s
Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22
Top

CONTINUED…
 
John

John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1
John 3:8 Sirach 16:21
John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16
John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s
John 3:13 Baruch 3:29
John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39
John 3:32 Tobit 4:6
John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s
John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35 Sirach 24:21
John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s]
John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24
John 8:53 Sirach 44:19
John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18
John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9
John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3
John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11
Top

Acts

Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26
Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19
Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12
Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7
Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32
Acts 4:24 Judith 9:12
Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32
Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6
Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10
Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19
Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40
Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21
Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1
Acts 10:2 Tobit 12:8
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc.
Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1
Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8
Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc.
Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19
Acts 12:5 Judith 4:9
Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26
Acts 12:23 Judith 16:17
Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21
Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41
Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9
Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30
Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10
Acts 14:14 Judith 14:16s
Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3
Acts 15:4 Judith 8:26
Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17
Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1
Acts 17:24 Tobit 7:17
Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9
Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18
Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6
Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10
Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7
Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17
Acts 19:28 Daniel 14:18, 41
Acts 20:26 Daniel 13:46
Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31
Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49
Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1
Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6
Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 26:25 Judith 10:13
Top

Romans

Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15
Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24
Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4
Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23
Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s
Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11
Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21
Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19
Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11
Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24
Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12
Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23
Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12
Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8
Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11
Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13
Romans 10:6 Baruch 3:29
Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4
Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s
Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1
Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34
Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27
Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s
Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18
Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9
Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20
Top

CONTINUED…
 
1 Corinthians

1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19
1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10
1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8
1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18
1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17
1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23
1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19
1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2
1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s
1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7
1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3
1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23
1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6
1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s
1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s
1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1
Top

2 Corinthians

2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15
2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16
Top

Galatians

Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13
Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5
Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17
Top

Ephesians

Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13
Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7
Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9
Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3
Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17
Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18
Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21
Top

Philippians

Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19
Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23
Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6
Top

Colossians

Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s
Top

1 Thessalonians

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8
1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8
1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s
1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14
1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18
Top

2 Thessalonians

2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7
Top

1 Timothy

1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4
Top

2 Timothy

2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60
Top

Titus

Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6
Top

CONTINUED…
 
Hebrews

Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23
Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10
Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17
Top

James

James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
James 5:3 Judith 16:17
James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19
Top

1 Peter

1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13
Top

2 Peter

2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19
2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10
Top

1 John

1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72
Top

Jude

Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1
Top

Revelation

Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15]
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc.
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17

cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm
jimmyakin.com

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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michaelp:
Christ and the Apostles never quote the Deuterocanonicals or even one representative book of the Greek canon as Scripture. It is debated whether they even referred to them at all. We can discuss individual instances if you would like. Do you know of any instances where even one of the Deuterocanonicals is quoted explicitly as Scripture? If so, I would like to discuss it.
Michael, I’m sure you’re familiar with Mat 1:22-23
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Mat 1:23 Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Which of course comes from Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

Now I’m also sure that you know why this particular verse is important. The “virgin” of the prophecy is only found in the Septuagint. In the Hebrew, the prophecy is simply that “a young woman” shall conceive.

Obviously, this was the version used by the Apostles. If you insist that we use the Hebrew canon exclusively, then you must reject “virgin” from the prophecy. Once you do that, you are essentially denying the Virgin Birth and ergo the divinity of our Lord.
 
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michaelp:
Like I said, you have to decide which Deuterocanonical books that you wish to find in the LXX. The earliest copies are only fragments and do not contain the Deuterocanonical’s at all (although they are only fragments). The two complete sets that we have date to 350 and contain different lists. Which list do you go by?
Let’s take a look at Codex Sinaiticus (~AD 350). Does it contain the deuteros? Yes. Along with additional apocryphal books. There are also apocrophal books in the NT. The same is true of Codex Vaticanus (AD 250 - AD 320 - AD 350) and Code Alexandrinus (AD 375 - AD 450). All the entire manuscripts contain all the deutero writings with one exception: the absence of Macabees from the Codex Vaticanus (the oldest copy of the Greek OT). Where the complete codicies differ from one another is in excess titles above the deuterocanonical books.

But we need to recall the situation back then. Just as with the Palestinian Jews and their Hebrew scrolls, the Greek Jews did not consider the LXX to have a fixed canon. Without question the Torah was considered sacred. But some Jews denied the inspiration of the Prophets. And in the Hagiographa (Writings), questions and concerns increased as one got down to the works of increasingly questionable divinity, such as III Macabees.

Furthermore, the use of scrolls allowed for a certain variability in titles from location to location and within one location over time. Single bound copies like the Codex Vaticanus would have been extremely rare, more notable for its exceptionalism than for its definitiveness.

We also need to remember the millieu of this era. There was a significant territorial overlap between the Hellinized Jews around the Mediterranean and the early Church. I have no doubt that local Church leaders were intimately aware of the issues of inspiration and canonicity. After all, they frequently engaged in disputations with local Jews over these very issues.

And lastly, and without question, the apostles, their disciples, and the rest of the early church relied heavily (indeed almost exclusively) on the LXX. But it is not the presence of a particular book in one of the codicies (which relied on some small group of transcribers and a particular patron) that makes it sacred. The reality is that there was never a fixed canon, OT OR NT, until the church set one in AD 382 at the Council of Rome.
 
Catholic4aReasn said:
1 Corinthians

1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19





Titus

Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6
Top

CONTINUED…

Come on. Even the New Advent Catholic Enclyclopidia admits that their are no direct quotation of the Deuterocanonicals in the NT.

“All the books of the Hebrew Old Testament are cited in the New except those which have been aptly called the Antilegomena of the Old Testament, viz., Esther, Ecclesiastes, and Canticles; moreover Esdras and Nehemias are not employed. The admitted absence of any explicit citation of the deutero writings does not therefore prove that they were regarded as inferior to the above-mentioned works in the eyes of New Testament personages and authors.”

This list you provided is not a list of the NT quoting the Deurterocanonicals, it is a list of simular concepts that are being taught. Using this standard, I would use any religious writing and come up with thousand of possible allusions or simular concepts. This does not work. Even Jimmy Akins says this up front before he lists them.

"I get a lot of requests for a list of the references the New Testament makes to the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament. Unfortunately, giving a list is not such a simple affair since it is not always obvious whether something is a genuine reference.
Hebrews 11:35 is an indisputable reference to 2 Maccabees 7, but many are not so clear as there may be only a single phrase that echoes one in a deuterocanonical book (and this may not be obvious in the translation, but only the original languages).

As a result, many scholarly works simply give an enormous catalogue of all proposed references and leave it to the individual interpreter to decide whether a given reference is actual or not. "

What is needed to authenticate inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals is a reference to one of the books AS SCRIPTURE using the common phrase “It is written . . .” or “thus sayeth the Lord . . .”

None of these quotes adds much value to the debate. If it did, then Jude’s quote of Enoch or Paul use of Greek philosphers could be used to authenticate their canonicity (and, with these, unlike the Deuterocanonical “quotations” you listed, we know they are direct references). But, as I said, neither of these are quoted as Scripture, so there is no reason to believe that they are canonical. Are you willing to say that Enoch is inspired just because it is quoted?
 
]If you use that line of reasoning in determining canonocity, then you would have to reject over a third of the OT.
That is not true. Here are three reasons why the non-quotation of certian Protocanonical books is a false analogy with the non-quotation of the Deuterocanonical books:
  1. The Protocanonical books have never been in dispute. They are not an issue with Catholics, Protestants, and Jews. Therefore, their is no controvery concerning their inclusion.
  2. The list of accepted OT books in Christ’s day was made up of a three fold division (the Law, the prophets, and the writings). The Deuterocanonical is not contained in any of these. The NT refers to this division.
  3. When a writer would quote from a book out of one of these divisions (Law, Prophets, and writings) it was an affirmation of the entire division. That is why the Saducees accepted one full division (Law) and not the others. Christ and the apostles confirmed the other divisions by quoting from representative books. If only one book from the Deuterocanonicals was quoted from as Scripture, this would give much validity to the ENTIRE division. But there is not a single quotation of a Deuterocanonical book AS SCRIPTURE.
Unless you can show me one.

Therefore, there is no comparison. The canon of Christ’s day, the Palestinian Canon, did not include the Deuterocanonical books and Christ and the Apostle’s affirmed that canon.
I was asking for specifically where this “overwhelming amount of unbiased research” is. Can you cite it (I’m not being sarcastic)? I would like to study this research (and its origins) for myself.
The Canon of Scripture: FF Bruce

The best comprehensive treatment of the Old Testament canon is Roger T. Beckwith, The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and Its Background in Early Judaism (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1985)

For a good brief discussion of the Old Testament canon see E. Earl Ellis, The Old Testament in Early Christianity (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1991), Chapter 1, “The Old Testament Canon in the Early Church.” Ellis concludes that the churches did not receive or adopt a wider Septuagint canon until the fourth century.

Theodor Zahn, Geschichte des neutestamentlichen Kanons, I, II (Erlangen, 1888-92)

Here is a list put out by the United Bible Society (hardly a biased organization):

ubs-translations.org/scholarly/bibdocs/canonbib.doc
Again, Jesus and the Apostles didn’t explicity quote (using your required terminology) from a third of the OT as Scripture, so I see that argument as void, but they did quote from the Septuagint which did contain the deuteros.
You need to read up on the LXX and Deuterocaonical issue. I posted something earlier that you must have missed. But the Deuterocanonicals are different in every manuscript that we have of the LXX. Which LXX canon are you appealing to? The earliest one we have that contains some of the Deuterocanonical books is 350 A.D. And it disagrees with the other that date about the same time. Which LXX are you referring to?

Josephus and Philo who both used the LXX extensively in their writings did not accept the Deuterocanonicals. This is why most scholars say that the LXX of Christ’s day probebly did not contain the Deuteros as inspired books. And, even if they did, it is impossible to know which ones were included.

Therefore the LXX arguement is weak.
Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint using the terminology IT IS WRITTEN– “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).
So here, Jesus uses the form you asked for (it is written) and then refers to the Septuagint, containing the deuteros

Doesn’t work . . . read above.
 
Hi Nancy, hope you are doing well.
Jesus never quoted from Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ruth, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Obadiah, or Nahum. Should we accept them? Why or why not?
No, because they were indisputable part of the accepted Scripture of Christ’s day (Jews, Protestants, and Catholics all agree). They were part of a representative division of books called the Prophets and the Writings. The OT was broken up into three different divisions, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. None of these contained the Deuterocanonicals. When Christ or the Apostles quoted from one of the books contained in the divisions, it affirmed the entire division since they were broken up this way. If Christ or the Apostles would have quoted from only one of the Greek division (Deuterocanonical books) then that division would be given much validity. But they never quote from them as Scripture.
Are you sure the researchers are unbiased? Doesn’t the evidence they present simply support what they already believe to be true? How is that unbiased?
One thing that you must understand about being a Protestant is that one is not NECESSARILY biased. Catholics must see the evidence in light of Rome. Protestants do not have any obligation to see evidence in light of anything . . . including the conclusions of the Reformers. In fact, we are living by their principle of semper reformanda “always reforming.” It is true that many Protestants study issues in light of their tradition forcing the evidence to fit their agenda and preconceptions, but this does not necessarily have to be the case. I don’t have any agenda and am under no oblication to reject the Deuterocanonical books. Catholics, however, have the deck stacked. For you to truly study this issue objectively, you must be willing to place your loyalty to Rome in jeapordy. Are you willing to do this?

That is why Protestants, generally speaking, can study issues with much more objectivity.
You don’t find it persuasive that every pre-Reformation bible had the apocrypha in them?
My Bible that I use now is the NET Bible (www.netbible.org). It contains the Apocrypha on the web. This does not mean that they believe it to be inspired, but valuable. That is the way that the majority of scholars, even Catholic, viewed the Deuterocanonical books throughout history.

I will provide you with much evidence for this if you would like.
How do you believe that the “Spirit led body that has both individually and conllectively the witness and power of the Holy Spirit within them” functions as the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) in the world today?
Through His power changing lives.
 
Obviously, this was the version used by the Apostles. If you insist that we use the Hebrew canon exclusively, then you must reject “virgin” from the prophecy. Once you do that, you are essentially denying the Virgin Birth and ergo the divinity of our Lord.
Believe me, I know that the NT writers extensively used the Greek Old Testament.

Please read the posts above. The LXX in Christ’s day more than likely did not include the Deuterocanonical books. At the very least, it did not contain the list advocated by Rome. Josephus used the LXX extensively as well. But here did not include the Deuterocanonicals in his list of inspired books. Philo who was from Alexandria used the LXX as well and he did not even show a knowledge of the Deuterocanonical books even though he quoted from almost every Protocanonical book of the OT. What does that tell you about the status of the canon of the LXX? That it did not contain the Deuterocanonicals in Christ’s day.

Again, this is why I say that unbiased researchers reject the Deuterocanonicals.

Hope you are doing well.

Michael
 
Peace to all.

Unfortunately I don’t have the time to read all the posts so I apologize in advance if I repeat any points that have been made. (I read about half and skimmed the second half). Although I’ve not read all I’ve got to put in my bit.

This is a great thread; however, I feel it has gotten stuck on a tangent.

Mr. Knight first posed the question to see where protestants get their authority (I would assume). We all seemed to have wandered into this Septuagintal maze which has no exit. Protestants: You don’t except the Septuagint? Fine, why do you except the rest of the Bible. In particular the NT. When the Gospel of John says that God became flesh how do you know that is true?

Again I apologize if this has already been stated.
 
Let’s take a look at Codex Sinaiticus (~AD 350). Does it contain the deuteros? Yes. Along with additional apocryphal books. There are also apocrophal books in the NT. The same is true of Codex Vaticanus (AD 250 - AD 320 - AD 350) and Code Alexandrinus (AD 375 - AD 450).
Let’s take a further looks at the LXX:

Quoted from: christiantruth.com/Apocryphapart1.html
"One of the reasons Roman Catholics argue for a broader canon is that the oldest extant manuscripts of the Septuagint do contain a number of Apocryphal books. These manuscripts are: Vaticanus (early 4th century), Sinaiticus (early 4th century), and Alexandrinus (early 5th century). The Apocryphal books of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Judith and Tobit are included in all three, but there are also differences. Vaticanus does not include any of the Maccabean books, while Sinaiticus includes 1 and 4 Maccabees and Alexandrinus includes 1, 2, 3, and 4 Maccabees and a work known as the Psalms of Solomon. If inclusion of a book in the manuscript proves its canonicity, as Roman Catholics assert, then 3 and 4 Maccabees were canonical. However, we know with certainty that this was not the case. It is also true that the Septuagint included a number of appendices to the canonical Old Testament books such as Esther, 1 Esdras, the additions to Daniel (Song of the Three Children, Bel and the Dragon and Susanna), and the additions to Jeremiah (Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy). But as Henry Swete points out, none of these books, or the rest of the Apocrypha, were part of the Hebrew canon:

The MSS. and many of the lists of the Greek Old Testament include certain books which find no place in the Hebrew Canon. The number of these books varies…but the fullest collections contain the following: I Esdras, Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Judith, Tobit, Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremiah, i.-iv. Maccabees. We may add the Psalms of Solomon, a book which was sometimes included in MSS. of Salomonic books, or, in complete Bibles, at the end of the Canon…42

Additionally, we must reckon with the testimony of Josephus. He used the Septuagint but his citation of the Hebrew canon did not include the Apocrypha. There are a number of problems with Roman Catholic assumptions. First of all, the Septuagint manuscripts are all of Christian origin from the fourth and fifth centuries as opposed to Alexandria in Egypt. **We do not know for certain that the Septuagint itself included the books of the Apocrypha as canonical Scripture. **Secondly, as already mentioned, there were books in these manuscripts that were never considered canonical by the Jews or the Church, in particular, 3 and 4 Maccabees. Therefore, just because a book was listed in the manuscripts did not mean it was canonical. It simply means that these books were read in the Church. This likely parallels the general perspective of many of the fathers of the early Church. During the Church age, certain books were designated canonical while others were called ecclesiastical, but all were grouped together without distinction. The ecclesiastical books were useful for reading and edification but were not authoritative for the establishing of doctrine. This position was held by both Athanasius and Cyril of Jerusalem, who used the Septuagint, but were careful to exclude the Apocryphal books from the status of canonical Scripture. This was also the practice of the Jews of Palestine. While rejecting Tobit and Judith as canonical, they still read them. This is seen from the statements of Josephus who used the Septuagint but excluded the Apocryphal books from canonical status. A similar situation probably existed among the Greek speaking Jews who may have included them in the Septuagint. Philo, who resided in Alexandria and used the Septuagint, did not cite the Apocrypha as canonical, but referred to a fourth class of books which were highly esteemed but not considered canonical."

So, again, which LXX canon are you referring to?

Michael
 
Hey JLove:
You don’t except the Septuagint?
This is really where you have missed out. Read the post above and it should get you on track.

Thanks.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
Hi Nancy, hope you are doing well.

One thing that you must understand about being a Protestant is that one is not NECESSARILY biased. Catholics must see the evidence in light of Rome. Protestants do not have any obligation to see evidence in light of anything . . . including the conclusions of the Reformers.
Interesting!? I thought that if something wasn’t taught in the Bible then it’s not true. That sounds like a bias to me.

Just as the Catholics have to view everything in light of Rome, the Protestant has to view everything in light of the Bible. Which then poses the question: How do you know your interpreting the Bible correctly.

How do I know Rome is interpreting correctly? Easy, I have faith in Christ and what he said. (See Matthew chapters 16 &18)
 
Michaelp,

Oops, I meant to say, “You don’t except the Apocrypha?”…

I still ask you why do except the NT?
 
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