Protestant Contributions to Theology

[RyanBlack]

My parents are Methodist and my mom loves the Left Behind series. But okay.

Is your mom a theologian, biblical scholar, or church historian? If you re-read my post, you will notice that I was referring to the rejection of the idea of the Rapture by scholars. I earned both the Master of Divinity and the Master of Theology at Duke University Divinity School, which is a Methodist theological school. I assure you, the Rapture is not associated with scholars in the Methodist tradition.

 

[RyanBlack]

I hope you are right, but hang around this forum awhile longer…you’ll hear it.

I know that there are many Protestants who don’t acknowledge their theological indebtedness to the ancient teachings of the Church, and I said as much in my post. used to be one of them, as I was raised between the Southern Baptist and Church of God (Cleveland, TN) traditions. Protestants of this sort have generally been given little or no exposure church history. However, I know for a fact from my own experiences that there are also many, many Protestants, especially religious scholars and those who’ve actually studied church history, who know that a great deal of their theology (especially Trinitarian theology and Christology) was worked out by the ancient Church.

 

[onenow1]

I’m afraid this post is an example of stereotyping of Protestantism and Protestant theology.

You say that it is your contention that there has not been much in the way of substantive Protestant contributions to theology, but you also say in another post that you’re “no expert, not even close.” As someone who has studied a fair amount of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant theology with Catholic and Protestant theologians and historians, I suggest that your viewpoint is one that is, well, marginal at best.

Hi, Ryan, you said it yourself you have studied a fair amount of many theologies, I would suggest you look at the yellow pages and notice the amount of christian religions that claim to be apostolic, how does this happen when we know it to be false ? It really boggles the mind to see so many offshoots of, the original protesters,{ Luther,Calvin, Zwingli,etc.}, protesting even more. IMHO we need not be an expert just aware.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[JonNC]

Hi, Ryan, you said it yourself you have studied a fair amount of many theologies, I would suggest you look at the yellow pages and notice the amount of christian religions that claim to be apostolic, how does this happen when we know it to be false ? It really boggles the mind to see so many offshoots of, the original protesters,{ Luther,Calvin, Zwingli,etc.}, protesting even more. IMHO we need not be an expert just aware.

God Bless
onenow1

You’ll have to hunt hard for offshoots of Lutheranism. There just aren’t many, except for those who claim to be Lutheran but have swerved away from the Confessions.

Regarding the idea that most of the theology within the various protestant communions come directly from Catholic/Orthodox theology. This is particularly true with Lutheranism, ISTM. From Dr. Luther:

Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede – as we must – that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is your mom a theologian, biblical scholar, or church historian? If you re-read my post, you will notice that I was referring to the rejection of the idea of the Rapture by scholars. I earned both the Master of Divinity and the Master of Theology at Duke University Divinity School, which is a Methodist theological school. I assure you, the Rapture is not associated with scholars in the Methodist tradition.

No, but we had a Duke divinity student live with us one summer. Does that count?

But yes, I understand your point. However, and surely you must concede this, the rapture has a HUGE fan base here in the South.

Consequently, regardless of what you “professionals” must think, one of the significant ideas to come out of the Protestant movement is that of the Rapture as a result of the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible. Scholarly or not, millions of Protestants have been taken in by this false teaching.

And since you are a Methodist, and you baptize infants, surely you know that millions of your fellow Protestants have bought the false theology that infants should not be baptized.

And while I was at mass a few minutes ago, it also occurred to me that Protestant theologians have also given us Eternal Assurance or Once Saved, Always Saved…another theological novelty which I suspect you reject.

You’re Arminian…do we need to review five-point Calvinism? How do you feel about THAT contribution by Protestants?

You see, you’re going to be forced to pick and choose among those Protestant theologians that you agree with and those you don’t. Wesley, yes; Sproul, no, etc.

Clearly, one Protestant contribution to the pool of ideas is that everyone is pretty much free to pick and choose what he will and won’t agree to…hence the explosion of Protestant denominations which by some accounts now number in the thousands.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I know that there are many Protestants who don’t acknowledge their theological indebtedness to the ancient teachings of the Church, and I said as much in my post. used to be one of them, as I was raised between the Southern Baptist and Church of God (Cleveland, TN) traditions. Protestants of this sort have generally been given little or no exposure church history. However, I know for a fact from my own experiences that there are also many, many Protestants, especially religious scholars and those who’ve actually studied church history, who know that a great deal of their theology (especially Trinitarian theology and Christology) was worked out by the ancient Church.

So, you both confirm the problem and offer hope in one post. I like it.

 

[benjohnson]

Frankly, I’m not sure if we get to parcel out our small contributions as ‘ours’ and then boast about them. But… if asked…

There’s several things I’ve noticed in the Catholic church that seem ‘Lutheran’:

Liturgy in the vernacular
Gospel oriented hymns ( I dare you to crack open a 19th century Catholic hymnal. It isn’t a pretty sight)
Eucharist in both species
Corporate confessions (or it sort of looks like it) in the beginning of the liturgy.
A recent push in seminary training - for a while it seemed to be only Lutherans learned Latin and Greek.

BUT under no circumstances do Lutherans get to pat ourselves on the back at all. This is Christ work in this. And frankly some of these things could also be traced to our Orthodox friends.

…

And a small anecdote for how a Catholic can help a Lutheran:

My sons got to meet their first religious sister at the HHS rally. They had a great time with her, and she really enjoyed them. It was the first time they got to meet someone who is loved by God not for how they behave or their works, but for their whole life dedicated to Him.

This is an important witness to God that unfortunately we Lutherans don’t have in abundance like our Catholic friends have.

A small anecdote for how a Lutheran can help a Catholic:

Here’s in the Pacific Northwest, you can’t throw a rock without hitting a lapsed Catholic, and I think some of the distinctively Lutheran ideas have made it a bit easier for me to help a few of these good people come back to their Catholic church.

Sadly, what seemed to happen is that the Church lets these people down and they think that because the Church claims to be perfect, then the logical conclusion is that the whole thing (including God) is a lie once their find the first flaw.

Lutherans draw a sharp distinction between the repentant body of Christ’s believers, and God. And for Catholics who have experienced something traumatic in their church experience, it’s rather easy for me to say “We’ll that’s just some numbskull in the church acting like a jerk. That isn’t God, so don’t turn your back just because one person is keeping you from Him.”

Perhaps having a fellow traveler in Christ say “That’s messed up, but go back to church anyways” is of some benefit.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’ll have to hunt hard for offshoots of Lutheranism. There just aren’t many, except for those who claim to be Lutheran but have swerved away from the Confessions.

Heh…what if I had said that?

“You’ll have to hunt hard for offshoots of Catholicism. There just aren’t many, except for those who claim to be Catholic but have swerved away from the papacy. Like the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Anglicans…”

 

[Cavaradossi]

No, but we had a Duke divinity student live with us one summer. Does that count?

But yes, I understand your point. However, and surely you must concede this, the rapture has a HUGE fan base here in the South.

Consequently, regardless of what you “professionals” must think, one of the significant ideas to come out of the Protestant movement is that of the Rapture as a result of the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible. Scholarly or not, millions of Protestants have been taken in by this false teaching.

And since you are a Methodist, and you baptize infants, surely you know that millions of your fellow Protestants have bought the false theology that infants should not be baptized.

And while I was at mass a few minutes ago, it also occurred to me that Protestant theologians have also given us Eternal Assurance or Once Saved, Always Saved…another theological novelty which I suspect you reject.

You’re Arminian…do we need to review five-point Calvinism? How do you feel about THAT contribution by Protestants?

You see, you’re going to be forced to pick and choose among those Protestant theologians that you agree with and those you don’t. Wesley, yes; Sproul, no, etc.

Clearly, one Protestant contribution to the pool of ideas is that everyone is pretty much free to pick and choose what he will and won’t agree to…hence the explosion of Protestant denominations which by some accounts now number in the thousands.

RyanBlack is not a Protestant…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Frankly, I’m not sure if we get to parcel out our small contributions as ‘ours’ and then boast about them. But… if asked…

There’s several things I’ve noticed in the Catholic church that seem ‘Lutheran’:

Liturgy in the vernacular
Gospel oriented hymns ( I dare you to crack open a 19th century Catholic hymnal. It isn’t a pretty sight)
Eucharist in both species
Corporate confessions (or it sort of looks like it) in the beginning of the liturgy.
A recent push in seminary training - for a while it seemed to be only Lutherans learned Latin and Greek.

BUT under no circumstances do Lutherans get to pat ourselves on the back at all. This is Christ work in this. And frankly some of these things could also be traced to our Orthodox friends.

…

And a small anecdote for how a Catholic can help a Lutheran:

My sons got to meet their first religious sister at the HHS rally. They had a great time with her, and she really enjoyed them. It was the first time they got to meet someone who is loved by God not for how they behave or their works, but for their whole life dedicated to Him.

This is an important witness to God that unfortunately we Lutherans don’t have in abundance like our Catholic friends have.

A small anecdote for how a Lutheran can help a Catholic:

Here’s in the Pacific Northwest, you can’t throw a rock without hitting a lapsed Catholic, and I think some of the distinctively Lutheran ideas have made it a bit easier for me to help a few of these good people come back to their Catholic church.

Sadly, what seemed to happen is that the Church lets these people down and they think that because the Church claims to be perfect, then the logical conclusion is that the whole thing (including God) is a lie once their find the first flaw.

Lutherans draw a sharp distinction between the repentant body of Christ’s believers, and God. And for Catholics who have experienced something traumatic in their church experience, it’s rather easy for me to say “We’ll that’s just some numbskull in the church acting like a jerk. That isn’t God, so don’t turn your back just because one person is keeping you from Him.”

Perhaps having a fellow traveler in Christ say “That’s messed up, but go back to church anyways” is of some benefit.

Interesting stuff, Ben.

I do think that people hold the Catholic Church to a very high standard, and moral failure on the part of priests creates huge backlash as a result.

Infallibility and impeccability are big words that don’t have a home in most people’s vocabularies, but the distinction is very significant.

 

[Randy_Carson]

RyanBlack is not a Protestant…

Whoops! My Methodism is showing. He graduates from Duke and I assume Methodist.

Sorry, Ryan!

Everything I wrote still applies to Methodist alumni!

 

[JonNC]

Heh…what if I had said that?

“You’ll have to hunt hard for offshoots of Catholicism. There just aren’t many, except for those who claim to be Catholic but have swerved away from the papacy. Like the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Anglicans…”

Touche’, smart aleck.

Jon

 

[TRH1292]

Part of the problem here is that because of the individualistic nature of Protestantism, it is very hard to treat it as a coherent whole. There is no central teaching authority that unites them all together.

So really it’s just a collection of individuals and church body’s that may or may not believe some of the same things. Some of them have contributed great heresies, like the ones that have been mentioned. Other have done very good with what they had, however, and with an intelligent mind and prayerful spirit contributed a lot of interesting insights.

 

[Protestor]

I have no idea why this would be on the non-catholic religions section of the forum, but since it is I would like to replace have embraced with should if they haven’t. Being as I am not a member of the RCC I do not have intimate knowledge of your theological beliefs

Randolf Otto’s idea of the numinous

On a side note Francis Schaeffer is a good read sometimes boring but good, and if you have never read A.W. Tozer I would highly suggest it especially the crucified life. I would not put either of these 2 into a category of intense theological thought but Tozer’s works for me are awesome and seem to be catholic freindly.

 

[Church_Militant]

On a side note Francis Schaeffer is a good read sometimes boring but good,

He’s about as anti-Catholic as they come though and his arguments and comments about Catholicism are often inaccurate and misleading.

and if you have never read A.W. Tozer I would highly suggest it especially the crucified life. I would not put either of these 2 into a category of intense theological thought but Tozer’s works for me are awesome and seem to be catholic friendly.

Yet Tozer’s stuff is lightweight compared to Catholic writings on that same topic.

I think Randy’s point is that so far as Christian theology is concerned, the following quote from Ecclesiastes is really true.Ecclesiastes 1:10 Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.

 

[Pilosopo]

OOps… a little technically challenged…

 

[Pilosopo]

He’s about as anti-Catholic as they come though and his arguments and comments about Catholicism are often inaccurate and misleading.
Yet Tozer’s stuff is lightweight compared to Catholic writings on that same topic.

I think Randy’s point is that so far as Christian theology is concerned, the following quote from Ecclesiastes is really true.Ecclesiastes 1:10 Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.

A challenge: I’m afraid you’re taking the passage, Ecclesiastes 1:10, a bit out of context. And, while seemingly to support the OPs views, may in fact do it a disservice.
I think the passage is not an argument for Catholic thought (which would be greatly anachronistic), but about wisdom. There is something ancient about wisdom. That wisdom was always there, in a sense. The wisdom to be gained now, is not different, not radically new, from the wisdom that was gained in the past. The wisdom referred to (and again, this is my opinion, but I think a good one) is the wisdom from living life. Expressed another way, what constitutes the virtuous (not taken in any technical, e.g. Aristotelian, sense) life, and not about the intellectual articulation of truth.
My sense of what the OP is saying (at least from what I find quite helpful vs a sense that it is “juvenile”) is major contributions to theological thought.
I think a helpful analogy would be, what Einstein is to Newton, or Galileo is to Copernicus. [relativity… geocentric theory] In the history of philosophy, perhaps it is what Kant is to Descartes, and in turn, to Platonic thought. [categories of the mind… cogito… world of forms]
With all this said, sorry OP for putting words into your mouth… I just don’t want to reinforce a game of sorts between Catholics and Protestants of “whatever-you-can-do-I-can-do-better.”

 

[Protestor]

I have only read his book “How We Should Then Live” I do not remember him being that bad in that one. I do not read books and notice that sort of thing unless it is blatant. You think I would have suggested Watchman Nee or Spurgeon or Sproll ( actually his book on the holiness of God is not so hard on catholics).
This is besides my point forget Schaefer. Tozer is great. No comment on the only person who I thought should have made a contribution to catholic theology Otto.

 

[rinnie]

Can you name anything that Protestants have contributed to the study of theology that Catholics (or the Orthodox) have embraced?

<chirp, chirp, chirp>

Seriously, anyone got something?

I think the study of theology itself. It is because of them that us (regular Catholic’s) are forced to study to defend our faith.

 

[cheezey]

I think the study of theology itself. It is because of them that us (regular Catholic’s) are forced to study to defend our faith.

I think it also forces us to acknowledge and examine our faiths and/or lack of it.