God, of course, is the one who inspired His word. And He uses His Church to reveal these things. The issue of the DC’s is not that they are rejected, but that they are disputed.
You have to know when to ignore Luther’s sarcasm and hyperbole.
Jon
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You have to know when to ignore Luther’s sarcasm and hyperbole.
Jon
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steido01
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Sextus, thank you for starting this thread and for maintaining a positive demeanor in your questioning - it’s a small thing, but it is much appreciated!
If I can respond to the last portion of your question…I just want to point out that Lutherans do not follow any one man - not even Luther (1 Cor. 3:4). This is often a difficult concept for non-Lutherans to understand, because they assume that every church must have its own “pope” and that Luther was some sort of self-appointed anti-pope. Thus, they conclude that the thousands of people who left Rome did so because they were convinced by one very charismatic person. In fact, the label “Lutheran” was originally a RC invention intended to promote just that kind of view (We “Evangelical Catholics,” as we originally called ourselves, eventually adopted the pejorative - similar to how Packers fans now wear cheese, in response to Bears fans calling them “cheeseheads” for decades!
).The point I’m making is that if “Luther has spoken,” we would simply say, “Well, bully for him. Did what he say conform with the commonly accepted books of Scripture? Does it align with the Confessions?” And of course, knowing that particular little monk, we would also have to ask, “Was he making a crass joke, speaking in hyperbole, or enjoying a beer when he said that?”
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SextusEmpiricus
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But not all Christians reject the DC’s. So, as an outsider, how do I know which books are inspired by God?
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Peter_J
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Well, the list of books in the New Testament has been pretty much agree upon by all Christians since about the year 400.
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SextusEmpiricus
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Okay, thank you - this is what I am getting to. For Lutherans, then, the “magisterium” is the Lutheran church (pastors, I assume) – is that an appropriate conclusion??
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SextusEmpiricus
Guest
Of course, I am here to learn. I am a guest and assume the traditional rules of courtesy apply in this forum.Sextus, thank you for starting this thread and for maintaining a positive demeanor in your questioning - it’s a small thing, but it is much appreciated!
I just want to point out that Lutherans do not follow any one man - not even Luther (1 Cor. 3:4). This is often a difficult concept for non-Lutherans to understand, because they assume that every church must have its own “pope” and that Luther was some sort of self-appointed anti-pope. Thus, they conclude that the thousands of people who left Rome did so because they were convinced by one very charismatic person. In fact, the label “Lutheran” was originally a RC invention intended to promote just that kind of view (We “Evangelical Catholics,” as we originally called ourselves, eventually adopted the pejorative - similar to how Packers fans now wear cheese, in response to Bears fans calling them “cheeseheads” for decades!
The point I’m making is that if “Luther has spoken,” we would simply say, “Well, bully for him. Did what he say conform with the commonly accepted books of Scripture? Does it align with the Confessions?” And of course, knowing that particular little monk, we would also have to ask, “Was he making a crass joke, speaking in hyperbole, or enjoying a beer when he said that?”
Based on my understanding (as I mentioned in another post), the Lutheran church serves as the “magisterium” (for lack of a better term) for Lutherans. And, similarly, it seems to me that the confessions are authoritative as well.
Therefore, in response to the question - “How do you know the DC’s were not inspired by God?” The Lutheran response is - “Because my church tells me they are not inspired.” (Oversimplified for the sake of brevity). On the other hand, the Catholic response to a similar question would be - “Because the early church councils have examined the evidence.”
Have I made an accurate conclusion (based on responses from this thread)?
No. Not simply pastors. Synod leaders. Pastors are bound to the confessions, and far less individual interpretation freedom than in other non-Lutheran groups
Jon
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pablope
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Jon…as you consider the LCMS a western church, or are yourselves, as you say, Western Christians…if Trent has has there should be no doubt as to the canonicity of the DC books…then why do you continue to doubt their canonicity?
Is it not, by continuing to doubt their canonicity, your mindset is still stuck to the thinking of several centuries ago, and you have not taken into account the development or deepening of the understanding of the canonicity of the DC books?
And for, as one of the favorite persons that Lutherans cite, even Jerome says he submitted to the judgement of the Church…so why can’t you (or any other lutheran for that matter) do the same as Jerome…submit to the judgement of the Church regarding the canonicity of the DC books, and remove all doubts with your thinking regarding the DC books?
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Peter_J
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Huh?
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pablope
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OOOpppsss…Huh?
Jon…as you consider the LCMS a western church, or are yourselves, as you say, Western Christians…if Trent has decided/said or explicitly defined there should be no doubt as to the canonicity of the DC books…then why do you continue to doubt their canonicity?
Is it not, by continuing to doubt their canonicity, your mindset is still stuck to the thinking of several centuries ago, and you have not taken into account the development or deepening of the understanding of the canonicity of the DC books?
And for, as one of the favorite persons that Lutherans cite, even Jerome says he submitted to the judgement of the Church…so why can’t you (or any other lutheran for that matter) do the same as Jerome…submit to the judgement of the Church regarding the canonicity of the DC books, and remove all doubts with your thinking regarding the DC books?
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Peter_J
Guest
Why would Lutherans accept something on the grounds that the Council of Trent decreed it?OOOpppsss…
Jon…as you consider the LCMS a western church, or are yourselves, as you say, Western Christians…if Trent has decided/said or explicitly defined there should be no doubt as to the canonicity of the DC books…then why do you continue to doubt their canonicity?
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MaryT777
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Good point; it’s be like a Catholic accepting something because Luther decreed it;
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Packerland
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Oh, if only…
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Peter_J
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Thanks, although I wouldn’t go quite *that *far. More like Catholics accepting something because a Lutheran synod decreed it.
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pablope
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Because Lutherans claim to be a valid expression (or whatever they call it) of the western church, or are part of the Church in the West…yet have no patriarch, do not recognize any…among others.
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pablope
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But for catholics, it needs approval from the pope…and since Lutherans have no pope…
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Peter_J
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Wait a minute …
Lutherans have no Pope? :bigyikes:
Lutherans have no Pope? :bigyikes:
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SAVINGRACE
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benjohnson
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A valid continuation of the western church would be the term I use.
Our confession states that:
“Scripture…sets before us Christ alone as mediator, atoning sacrifice, high priest, and intercessor.”—Augsburg Confession Art. XXI.[4]
Hence why our church organization tends to be much ‘flatter’ per 1 Corinthians 4:1: “No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God.”
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