Protestant Cross

[PRmerger]

When I was in a Catholic hospital I was somewhat troubled by a crucifix in the room. It somehow didn’t contribute to my sense of well-being and optimism to wake up and see the figure of Christ dying a painful death before me.

It depends upon how you look at it. If you look at it as just *any *man dying a tortuous death, then I could see how you’d be troubled by that image.

However, as a Christian we ought to see the salvific nature of that death and find the hope and sweetness in that sacrifice. It is the THE image of the indestructible power of LOVE!

IMHO the hospital room is the #1 place a crucifix should be displayed!!!

 

[JonNC]

wrong riko. in many protestant congreations they no longer even have an empty cross…they have a big screen TV! I find it sad on the very rare occasions that i do have to enter a protestant building( for family events and such) that the cross has been replaced by a multi media center. not trying to be funny. its actually quite depressing. some of our seperated bretheren have gone from the way of the cross to the way of big screen TV. instead of looking up to the cross they look up to song lyrics that have very little depth,

I think your use of the word “many” is an exaggeration, probably based on your real but anecdotal experience. The multi-media blitz is not nearly as widespread as you imply here. Historic and liturgical chuirches, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, etc, have, for the most part, maintained tradition nave/altar worship settings.

Jon

 

[Janet1983]

in many protestant congreations they no longer even have an empty cross…they have a big screen TV!

In my church there is a larger wooden cross right in the front (over the baptismal pool). And I haven’t seen any church that does not have a cross… well when it comes to the Southern Baptists at least… I do know however of one or two who do not have enough wall space to project the text onto it and they then let down a canvas in front of the cross while they are singing and put it back up right after…

 

[O.S.Luke]

There was a book written several years ago called Cross and Crucifix by C.E. Pocknee. I read it when working on a paper for seminary and it showed that the history of the crucifix and cross in worship is long and complicated.

In the early Church there was great reluctance to portray the crucifixion of Christ at all, and early art in Roman catacombs up to the 5th century mosaics rarely showed an portrayal of crucifixion scenes. When crucifixes began to be used in worship spaces and in art, they were rarely realistic scenes: Christ would be regally dressed wearing a crown of gold (not of thorns)

The Franciscans were instrumental in bringing more focus to the Passion, and around the 12th century were when crucifixes with more realistic corpus began to appear.

In my opinion, both cross and crucifix have their place in Christian worship and religious life. The crucifix reminds us of the sacrifice and passion. The cross reminds us that we need to take our own cross up daily. It’s a both/and, not an either/or.

The Grünewald crucifixion on the Isenheim altar in Colmar, France, captures what I think is the best depiction of the crucified Christ. You can’t look at it without being moved.

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[OneTrueCathApos]

In my church there is a larger wooden cross right in the front (over the baptismal pool). And I haven’t seen any church that does not have a cross… well when it comes to the Southern Baptists at least… I do know however of one or two who do not have enough wall space to project the text onto it and they then let down a canvas in front of the cross while they are singing and put it back up right after…

What religion means child of God? Your profile states this. We are all children of God, but what church do you attend?

 

[4Squarebaby]

As most of you probably are aware, the Muslims believe that Jesus was a great prophet. They teach that he was born of the Virgin Mary and there is considerably more about Mary in the Koran than in the Bible. (It always struck me that St. Paul, in writing all those letters counseling early Christians, never once mentions Mary!) They even believe that Jesus spoke when he was a baby in the cradle.

 But they do not believe that Jesus was crucified. I forget their exact belief, but as I recall someone else was crucified in his place.

That would be Judas but the belief is not universal among Muslims. Basically the belief is God would not let His prophet suffer as Jesus did.

 

[Janet1983]

What religion means child of God? Your profile states this. We are all children of God, but what church do you attend?

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Saviour and I have received Him… My “religion” is commonly referred to as Christian.
My relationship however goes far beyond religious activity, because He is part of my life… every day… From the moment I wake up till the moment I fall asleep I strive to glorify the Lord with my life and to become more like Him.

 

[JonNC]

There was a book written several years ago called Cross and Crucifix by C.E. Pocknee. I read it when working on a paper for seminary and it showed that the history of the crucifix and cross in worship is long and complicated.

In the early Church there was great reluctance to portray the crucifixion of Christ at all, and early art in Roman catacombs up to the 5th century mosaics rarely showed an portrayal of crucifixion scenes. When crucifixes began to be used in worship spaces and in art, they were rarely realistic scenes: Christ would be regally dressed wearing a crown of gold (not of thorns)

The Franciscans were instrumental in bringing more focus to the Passion, and around the 12th century were when crucifixes with more realistic corpus began to appear.

In my opinion, both cross and crucifix have their place in Christian worship and religious life. The crucifix reminds us of the sacrifice and passion. The cross reminds us that we need to take our own cross up daily. It’s a both/and, not an either/or.

The Grünewald crucifixion on the Isenheim altar in Colmar, France, captures what I think is the best depiction of the crucified Christ. You can’t look at it without being moved.

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~fellows/hart206/images/grunewald_crucifixion.jpg

O.S. Luke,
This extremely positive and level post was not lost on everyone. Thanks for this excellent contribution.

Jon

 

[O.S.Luke]

Thank you Jon. It seems to have stopped the conversation tho.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Saviour and I have received Him… My “religion” is commonly referred to as Christian.
My relationship however goes far beyond religious activity, because He is part of my life… every day… From the moment I wake up till the moment I fall asleep I strive to glorify the Lord with my life and to become more like Him.

Ok, so you don’t attend church even though Christ explicitly tells you to do so, and there is nowhere in the bible that even mentions the word “personal”, that was derived from Luther just 500 years ago. I am glad you believe in Christ, but that simply is not enough. And the church in which Jesus Christ established, the Catholic church is far from any “religious activity” as you claim. It is the Word of Our Lord. One sheep, one shepherd. One.

 

[reteeks21]

Ok, so you don’t attend church even though Christ explicitly tells you to do so, and there is nowhere in the bible that even mentions the word “personal”, that was derived from Luther just 500 years ago. I am glad you believe in Christ, but that simply is not enough. And the church in which Jesus Christ established, the Catholic church is far from any “religious activity” as you claim. It is the Word of Our Lord. One sheep, one shepherd. One.

Nor is the word Trinity found but we still take it as truth. And you shouldn’t presume anything about what religious activities are to individual people, especially if they are Christians. Stop judging for once.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Nor is the word Trinity found but we still take it as truth. And you shouldn’t presume anything about what religious activities are to individual people, especially if they are Christians. Stop judging for once.

The post is not intended for you. I take the Mass AND the church Christ founded very seriously. I pray that some day you too will find it important. AND, if Christ didn’t teach the Trinity, why would He say “Go and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost”. We call that the Trinity, so it is in the bible.

 

[Janet1983]

Ok, so you don’t attend church even though Christ explicitly tells you to do so, and there is nowhere in the bible that even mentions the word “personal”, that was derived from Luther just 500 years ago. I am glad you believe in Christ, but that simply is not enough. And the church in which Jesus Christ established, the Catholic church is far from any “religious activity” as you claim. It is the Word of Our Lord. One sheep, one shepherd. One.

How would you know I wouldn’t?

 

[reteeks21]

The post is not intended for you. I take the Mass AND the church Christ founded very seriously. I pray that some day you too will find it important. AND, if Christ didn’t teach the Trinity, why would He say “Go and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost”. We call that the Trinity, so it is in the bible.

So, I can’t respond to a post even if my name isn’t on it? I’m sure you are guilty of it somewhere along the line. And I never said the Trinity wasn’t taught. I said the word wasn’t in the Bible much like your “personal” assertion isn’t. And by the way, it is important to me. I am finishing my classes in the next month. I just choose to not treat others like you…and thank God my priest isn’t the same way, too.

 

[Roy5]

One of my several problems with the crucifix is a problem I have with much religious art. We really have little idea of what Christ looked like, how he appeared on the cross, etc. This is one reason a stylized cross, not pretending to depict him realistically, has more appeal. He always seems to be a thin white man with long hair. My guess is that he was olive-skinned, and he could have been bald for all we know. Or, could he have shaved his hair off, as various prophetic figures have done over the centuries?

  Let me reinterate other problems I have with a crucifix.

  1. It focuses on the crucifixion, which in my view is less important than the resurrection, symbolized by the empty cross. 

  2. It focuses on pain and agony, when Christianity should be a faith of peace and joy.

  3. I find no scriptural support for a crucifix, while the cross is often mentioned.

  4. Now this is the one that may be heretical! Yes, Christ underwent some hours of intense physical and psychological pain. "My God, my God...." But if he is, as Christians believe, the Son of God which equals God, he knew that he was going to rise in three days and would reign over all creation forever and ever. He was and is, after all, King of kings and Lords of lords. Okay, here comes the part that could be offensive to some. Millions of people have suffered for months and years - maybe intense physical pain, perhaps in Siberia or Nazi camps, or in abusive relationships, or born without limbs or normal brain capacity --- etc., etc. There is a sense - ready for this?  - in which Christ's suffering cannot be compared to that of millions of others. It's like apples compared to a peach. 

   Which leads me to make this somehow-related point. When I see Christ on the cross, I see him as symbolic of all those who have suffered innocently over the centuries, whether those inhabitants of Jericho slaughtered by Joshua (as ordered by God???!!!!), the thousands of young men who fell at Verdun, citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, victims on 9/11, those who have suffered and died from months, even years of cancer, or polio, or heart disease .... well, you get the point? 

   God bless all creeds, colors and countries. May religion become a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[PRmerger]

One of my several problems with the crucifix is a problem I have with much religious art. We really have little idea of what Christ looked like, how he appeared on the cross, etc.

Fair enough. But it’s a definite human trait (and human need) to put an image to an idea–nothing wrong with that, IMHO. (In fact, in the quote below, you make my point quite nicely.)

This is one reason a stylized cross, not pretending to depict him realistically, has more appeal. He always seems to be a thin white man with long hair. My guess is that he was olive-skinned, and he could have been bald for all we know. Or, could he have shaved his hair off, as various prophetic figures have done over the centuries?

Let me reinterate other problems I have with a crucifix.

  1. It focuses on the crucifixion, which in my view is less important than the resurrection, symbolized by the empty cross.

Do you have a problem, then, with the baby Jesus in a creche because it puts too much focus on the Incarnation?

1. It focuses on pain and agony, when Christianity should be a faith of peace and joy.

Catholicism acknowledges both/and.

1. I find no scriptural support for a crucifix, while the cross is often mentioned.

Ok. But do you have any scriptural support that we should not depict the Act Which Atoned for Our Sins?

1. Now this is the one that may be heretical! Yes, Christ underwent some hours of intense physical and psychological pain. “My God, my God…” But if he is, as Christians believe, the Son of God which equals God, he knew that he was going to rise in three days and would reign over all creation forever and ever. He was and is, after all, King of kings and Lords of lords. Okay, here comes the part that could be offensive to some. Millions of people have suffered for months and years - maybe intense physical pain, perhaps in Siberia or Nazi camps, or in abusive relationships, or born without limbs or normal brain capacity — etc., etc. There is a sense - ready for this? - in which Christ’s suffering cannot be compared to that of millions of others. It’s like apples compared to a peach.

Perhaps in your Christian tradition the sufferings of millions would be…simply suffering. But in the Catholic Church the sufferings of millions can be united to Christ’s-- “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.” -Col 1:24

 

[wmscott]

BTW, if God should ever see fit to call me to pastor a church, I’d want a crucifix that shows the terror of what Jesus went through. Many crucifixes don’t show the suffering of the Lord.

This a good point, until the movie The Passion of Christ, most if not all depictions of the Crucifixion have been a sort of sanitized version. I am not saying that the Crucifixion was and cakewalks by any means, please do not misunderstand my words, however, if we compare most of the art of the Crucifixion and compare it to the movie The Passion of Christ, they are light years apart in intensity.
I remember that when my wife and I were going to go and watch the movie, it took us a few days to get up the courage to do so. When I say this, I mean that we had to pray that we were worthy to witness such an event that really has not been witnessed for 2000 years. After the movie, we were just numb and awe struck at the same time. We had just witnessed the Passion of Christ as close to reality as it possible could get. The next Sunday at Church, I could hardly take my eyes from the Crucifix. It left a make on me.

 

[Roy5]

To begin with, I’m not so much in any one church. I have taught comparative religions, and visit many churches, temples, mosques, etc. I am interested in various ways in which humanity had sought to understand and connect with the divine.

The creche is not seen as the symbol of Christianity. It is seasonal.

Now, I have to be honest and say that I am one of those 'liberal' Protestants who does not subscribe to the usual atonement theory. I try to be a faithful follower of Christ and live as much as possible by the Sermon on the Mount, but the idea that God killed his only son to save us from our sins has never resonated well with me since I first heard it enunciated as a young child. How could a loving child plan for his own son's murder?. It simply seems too pagan. I am reminded of this little rime:

     God published a tale and a girl and a ghost,
     Of devils in pigs and his son on a cross.
     He gave it to man to believe it or roast.
     Yea, his mercy endureth forever!

  I believe that Christ is my Lord who was put to death by those who opposed his teachings. His spirit remained alive and is present among us. It will live within us if we open our hearts and minds to his message of love, forgiveness, and peace.

   Most of Christianity has twisted the urgent teachings of Christ into a religion about Christ. It must make him very sad, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I ask?" 

   But I respect all faiths that seek God. May God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[Roy5]

Correction: How could a loving Father plan for his own son’s murder? What kind of Father would do that?

 

[PRmerger]

Now, I have to be honest and say that I am one of those ‘liberal’ Protestants who does not subscribe to the usual atonement theory. I try to be a faithful follower of Christ and live as much as possible by the Sermon on the Mount,but the idea that God killed his only son to save us from our sins has never resonated well with me since I first heard it enunciated as a young child. How could a loving child plan for his own son’s murder?

I’ve always found that such a peculiar form of Christianity–a kind of creating a God in your own image. It rejects what Truth has been revealed that’s not palatable, but takes the generic “do unto others” message as the whole of Christianity.

To answer your question about the point of Jesus’ atoning sacrifice, Scott Hahn said it best: Jesus paid a debt He didn’t owe because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay.

I believe that Christ is my Lord who was put to death by those who opposed his teachings. His spirit remained alive and is present among us.

Do you think He was really God? Do you think He actually rose physically from the dead?