Protestant denominations & abortion

[Katholikos]

A Protestant brother on one of the threads in this forum suggested that one of the ways Protestants and Catholics could work together is in combating abortion.

Yes! And one of our primary goals ought to be to try to persuade the many Protestant denominations that officially approve abortion to cease and desist in their support for these killings.

Former abortionist Bernard Nathanson, M.D., in his book Aborting America (Doubleday, 1979) lists the major religious organizations that supported abortion at the time his book was published. Dr. Nathanson, who described himself as a ‘culturally Jewish atheist,’ says he is personally responsible for the deaths of 75,000 unborn children. He is now staunchly pro-life and has been a Catholic since December, 1996.

Some pro-abort churches are listed on the Internet (for example, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, rcrc.org/). But I don’t know whether a comprehensive, up-to-date list of all or most of them is available.

These pro-abortion “Christian”churches ought to get as much public recognition as possible. And it should not go unnoticed that even those who claim that they oppose abortion but approve contraception do, in fact, allow abortion because certain contraceptive methods (like “The Pill” and the IUD) are, in reality, life-destroying abortifacients.

JMJ Jay

 

[Maccabees]

Yes the mainline denominations for the most part now either condone abortion or are indifferent to the problem. Our best ecumenical partners on this have been evangelicals and the ORthodox christians and Orthodox Jews and Muslims. The mainline denoms are becoming useless as a partner in the pro-life efforts (of course their are exceptions but I am speaking in general here).

 

[nordskoven]

Gotta give the devil his due. Racist founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, who wanted to cleanse the gene pool of all brown-eyed people, recruited ministers to her cause. Look, Jesus called us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. The pro-life issues have been poorly presented to religious and non-religious alike. Granted, there have been media blackouts. So meet this challenge.

One honorable Catholic student, who heeded Jesus’ call to the wily, presented pro-life information in a pamphlet titled “Planned Parenthood.” Students grabbed up what they thought PP propaganda and read the plain, unadulterated truth about the horrific consequences of abortion and contraception. Have you done your homework? abortioncancer.com ORA ET LABORA, pray and work!

 

[Katholikos]

Maccabees:

Yes the mainline denominations for the most part now either condone abortion or are indifferent to the problem. Our best ecumenical partners on this have been evangelicals and the ORthodox christians and Orthodox Jews and Muslims. The mainline denoms are becoming useless as a partner in the pro-life efforts (of course their are exceptions but I am speaking in general here).

The Orthodox Churches claim to be pro-life but permit contraception – any form of contraception – including abortion-causing methods. This is a complete turn-around from their former teaching when contraception was strictly forbidden.

Until 1930 all Protestant churches condemned contraception as a serious sin. At the 1930 Lambeth Conference in England, the Anglican church – for the first time – voted to allow contraception in certain cases (as if God’s moral laws were a matter to be voted upon). After that, it was Nellie bar the door. the contraception/abortion mentality swept through Protestantism. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, in 1996, even began providing church-funded abortion “services” to its employees. Contraception and abortion are not sinful any longer to many Protestants.

flip-flop, first it was sin and now it’s not, flip-flop.

The only genuinely pro-life voice in the world is the Catholic Church.

Real churches don’t kill babies (quote from ELCA Pastor Leonard Klein.

---

JMJ Jay

 

[1ke]

Katholikos:

A Protestant brother on one of the threads in this forum suggested that one of the ways Protestants and Catholics could work together is in combating abortion.

Yes! And one of our primary goals ought to be to try to persuade the many Protestant denominations that officially approve abortion to cease and desist in their support for these killings.

Former abortionist Bernard Nathanson, M.D., in his book Aborting America (Doubleday, 1979) lists the major religious organizations that supported abortion at the time his book was published. Dr. Nathanson, who described himself as a ‘culturally Jewish atheist,’ says he is personally responsible for the deaths of 75,000 unborn children. He is now staunchly pro-life and has been a Catholic since December, 1996.

Some pro-abort churches are listed on the Internet (for example, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, rcrc.org/). But I don’t know whether a comprehensive, up-to-date list of all or most of them is available.

These pro-abortion “Christian”churches ought to get as much public recognition as possible. And it should not go unnoticed that even those who claim that they oppose abortion but approve contraception do, in fact, allow abortion because certain contraceptive methods (like “The Pill” and the IUD) are, in reality, life-destroying abortifacients.

JMJ Jay

Visit:

pregnantpause.org/people/wherchur.htm

to see a comprehensive listing of where various denominations stand on abortion.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

A Protestant brother on one of the threads in this forum suggested that one of the ways Protestants and Catholics could work together is in combating abortion.

Yes! And one of our primary goals ought to be to try to persuade the many Protestant denominations that officially approve abortion to cease and desist in their support for these killings.

Former abortionist Bernard Nathanson, M.D., in his book Aborting America (Doubleday, 1979) lists the major religious organizations that supported abortion at the time his book was published. Dr. Nathanson, who described himself as a ‘culturally Jewish atheist,’ says he is personally responsible for the deaths of 75,000 unborn children. He is now staunchly pro-life and has been a Catholic since December, 1996.

Some pro-abort churches are listed on the Internet (for example, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, rcrc.org/). But I don’t know whether a comprehensive, up-to-date list of all or most of them is available.

These pro-abortion “Christian”churches ought to get as much public recognition as possible. And it should not go unnoticed that even those who claim that they oppose abortion but approve contraception do, in fact, allow abortion because certain contraceptive methods (like “The Pill” and the IUD) are, in reality, life-destroying abortifacients.

JMJ Jay

This is a quote from a website provided by a poster concerning the role of the SBC (your former denomination and my birth denomination):

"The Southern Baptist Convention initially called for legislation in 1971 that would allow for the possibility of abortions under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe to fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother. In 1976, the convention changed its position to oppose abortions used as a means of birth control. In 1980, the convention strengthened its position by supporting legislation and/or a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion except to save the life of the mother. In recent years the Southern Baptist Convention has taken an active leadership role in supporting pro-life legislation, including backing the PBA Ban Act and opposing FOCA and other pro-abortion measures. The convention has also developed a broad range of pro-life educational material for all levels, including a comprehensive pro-life Sunday school curricula and materials for Sanctity of Life Sunday in January."

So, it seems that the Convention is moving in the right direction, although short of banning contraception (which I doubt they would ever do).

The abortion issue in the Baptist faith in modern times has been basically - “It is morally wrong to do so, but I don’t support legislation against it”. At least, the people I know and have known have viewed it this way. Right, wrong or indifferent - that is the reality of their modern view.

The churches I have belonged to have always condemned abortion - period. They have preached from the pulpit the evils of the practice - for anyone - members, non-members.

Having said that - I hope soon that denominations can work together as co-workers to stop the killing of innocent children. Whether protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, doesn’t matter. All faiths have a stake in stopping it.

Instead of fighting each other we should spend more time fighting what is unholy and unjust.

Peace…

 

[MaggieOH]

ahimsaman72:

This is a quote from a website provided by a poster concerning the role of the SBC (your former denomination and my birth denomination):

"The Southern Baptist Convention initially called for legislation in 1971 that would allow for the possibility of abortions under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe to fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother. In 1976, the convention changed its position to oppose abortions used as a means of birth control. In 1980, the convention strengthened its position by supporting legislation and/or a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion except to save the life of the mother. In recent years the Southern Baptist Convention has taken an active leadership role in supporting pro-life legislation, including backing the PBA Ban Act and opposing FOCA and other pro-abortion measures. The convention has also developed a broad range of pro-life educational material for all levels, including a comprehensive pro-life Sunday school curricula and materials for Sanctity of Life Sunday in January."

So, it seems that the Convention is moving in the right direction, although short of banning contraception (which I doubt they would ever do).

The abortion issue in the Baptist faith in modern times has been basically - “It is morally wrong to do so, but I don’t support legislation against it”. At least, the people I know and have known have viewed it this way. Right, wrong or indifferent - that is the reality of their modern view.

The churches I have belonged to have always condemned abortion - period. They have preached from the pulpit the evils of the practice - for anyone - members, non-members.

Having said that - I hope soon that denominations can work together as co-workers to stop the killing of innocent children. Whether protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, doesn’t matter. All faiths have a stake in stopping it.

Instead of fighting each other we should spend more time fighting what is unholy and unjust.

Peace…

Good post. There are, of course, SBC churches that have consistently campaigned against abortion and have worked side by side with Catholics on the issue.

Every time there is a convert away from the pro abortion stance then we are beginning to win. However we have a long way to go in getting people to realise that they are falling for the culture of death.

Maggie

 

[ahimsaman72]

MaggieOH:

Good post. There are, of course, SBC churches that have consistently campaigned against abortion and have worked side by side with Catholics on the issue.

Every time there is a convert away from the pro abortion stance then we are beginning to win. However we have a long way to go in getting people to realise that they are falling for the culture of death.

Maggie

Oh, I agree.

Beyond theological differences between denominations in Christianity and faiths outside of it, the prohibition of killing innocent children is a universal problem with universal consequences and should be a unifying principle that can help us trascend those differences.

I would absolutely support the complete banning of abortions and commend any faith-based or political non-violent means of fulfilling that mission. I believe it is possible to do so. For me, it’s a totally logical and moral imperative to value unborn children’s lives. Part of the problem is the value we as a society place on the lives of adults.

How can we expect society to value unborn children when it doesn’t value the lives of the elderly and disabled adults? There’s a logical bridge there. Once culture understands the value of all human life, abortion is a goner.

There are many issues behind our culture of death which are too numerous to mention. But, hardly ever mentioned is the role lower creatures have in our psyche. Don’t misunderstand what I’m about to say. The treatment of lower creatures such as animals and our planet are also indicators of our violent natures.

A kid grows up seeing his dad kick the cat around and abusing it sees immediately that there is an automatic lesser value of anything that isn’t “human” such as a household cat or dog. “Things” are at our disposal. If we don’t like them or want them, we can use any means within our abilities to do away with them.

I’m not equating the value of animals and babies as the same. I’m merely pointing out the psychological processes our minds seem to go through in evaluating what is acceptable to abuse and kill. A compassionate heart towards lower creatures is an easy stepping stone to a compassionate heart towards our little rays of sunshine in mother’s wombs.

Non-violence and selflessness must be part of our culture if abortion is ever to be outlawed. That begins with you and me teaching our children and our children’s children that life is sacred. It is valuable. It is worth something and should never be taken for granted or abused.

My rant of the day.

Peace…

 

[dmelosi]

I think that the greatest immediate impact we can have is with our fellow Catholics. With over 50% of Catholics voting Democrat in the last presidential election…we have our work cut out for us.

The mass 2 weeks ago around the anniversary of Roe vs Wade was a great one, but the momentum needs to be carried on throughout the year.

Just think of the impact if Catholics voted 75% pro life! That would be enough to change Roe vs Wade. I sure hope that the people that voted pro choice did so only because of ignorance of how important this single issue is.

That needs to be our goal, with our fellow Catholics.

 

[puzzleannie]

Katholikos:

The Orthodox Churches claim to be pro-life but permit contraception – any form of contraception – including abortion-causing methods. This is a complete turn-around from their former teaching when contraception was strictly forbidden.

can you provide a source for this as official teaching of any of the Orthodox Churches (as opposed to aberrations of individual priests or bishops)

 

[davy39]

ahimsaman72:

This is a quote from a website provided by a poster concerning the role of the SBC (your former denomination and my birth denomination):

"The Southern Baptist Convention initially called for legislation in 1971 that would allow for the possibility of abortions under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe to fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother. In 1976, the convention changed its position to oppose abortions used as a means of birth control. In 1980, the convention strengthened its position by supporting legislation and/or a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion except to save the life of the mother. In recent years the Southern Baptist Convention has taken an active leadership role in supporting pro-life legislation, including backing the PBA Ban Act and opposing FOCA and other pro-abortion measures. The convention has also developed a broad range of pro-life educational material for all levels, including a comprehensive pro-life Sunday school curricula and materials for Sanctity of Life Sunday in January."

So, it seems that the Convention is moving in the right direction, although short of banning contraception (which I doubt they would ever do).

The abortion issue in the Baptist faith in modern times has been basically - “It is morally wrong to do so, but I don’t support legislation against it”. At least, the people I know and have known have viewed it this way. Right, wrong or indifferent - that is the reality of their modern view.

The churches I have belonged to have always condemned abortion - period. They have preached from the pulpit the evils of the practice - for anyone - members, non-members.

Having said that - I hope soon that denominations can work together as co-workers to stop the killing of innocent children. Whether protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, doesn’t matter. All faiths have a stake in stopping it.

Instead of fighting each other we should spend more time fighting what is unholy and unjust.

Peace…

I think the Bapists are trying to be on both sides of the fence at the same time. They should fight abortion as hard as they fight the Catholic church.

 

[4_marks]

there is only one denomination that has officially condemned abortion. Surprise, it is not the Roman Catholic Church. It is the Jehovah’s Witnesses. No JW woman is permitted to have an abortion. If she does, she is disfellowshipped, and can never again be re-instated in good standing. She has become anathema.

Catholics have support programs run by dioceses for women who have had abortions. While this may be motivated by pastoral concern, is not strict condemnation of abortion. Plus, a woman can always seek forgiveness as a Roman Catholic, and receive it, for an abortion.

The point is. To denounce abortion is not a theological tenet of Catholicism, nor must one’s stance on abortion be a litmous test of a person’s faith in the One True God.

Abortion happens. Christians of all denominations must deal. Capice?

 

[ahimsaman72]

davy39:

I think the Bapists are trying to be on both sides of the fence at the same time. They should fight abortion as hard as they fight the Catholic church.

They are *moving *in the right direction. They are not there yet as I pointed out. If you look at the timeline you can see this progression.

From one Baptist to one Catholic you and I can begin to heal those wounds and practice compassion and understanding towards one another individually and make a difference collectively. As long as we harbor thoughts of me-them, we as denominations will not get far along in ecumenism.

The problem is - we have to make that choice. Are you willing to do so? That is the question.

Peace…

 

[Katholikos]

4 marks:

there is only one denomination that has officially condemned abortion. Surprise, it is not the Roman Catholic Church. It is the Jehovah’s Witnesses. No JW woman is permitted to have an abortion. If she does, she is disfellowshipped, and can never again be re-instated in good standing. She has become anathema.

Catholics have support programs run by dioceses for women who have had abortions. While this may be motivated by pastoral concern, is not strict condemnation of abortion. Plus, a woman can always seek forgiveness as a Roman Catholic, and receive it, for an abortion.

The point is. To denounce abortion is not a theological tenet of Catholicism, nor must one’s stance on abortion be a litmous test of a person’s faith in the One True God.

Abortion happens. Christians of all denominations must deal. Capice?

There are two things that are known about the Catholic Church all over the entire world: her condemnation of abortion and her condemnation of contraception. From the first-century Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles): "Do not murder, do not practice pederasty; do not fornicate; do not steal; do not deal in magic; do not practice sorcery; do not kill a fetus by abortion, or commit infanticide." The* Didache,* older than some ‘books’ of the NT, was written by the Church for the instruction of adult pagan converts.The teaching of the Church has been consistent for 21 centuries. The Catholic Church is first on every list of churches opposing abortion.

Yes, abortion is a theological tenent of Catholicism. See Article 5, The Fifth Commandment, You shall not kill [murder], Abortion, Paragraphs 2270 - 2275 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The 1974 document Declaration on Procured Abortion should be read as well. See also JP2’s encyclical, Evangelium Vitae – The Gospel of Life – and many other official Church documents condeming abortion. Abortion results in automatic excommunication. See also Denzinger’s The Sources of Catholic Dogma. Go here for a partial list of Church documents on abortion, including statements by the United States Council of Catholic Bishops.

silk.net/RelEd/abortion.htm

The Catholic Church hates the sin and loves the sinner, as Christ did. Therefore, she has compassion for those who have fallen into this sin. This in no way constitutes an approval of abortion.

Those who dissent from the teachings of the Church cut themselves off from the Church. A Catholic is one who believes everything the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches. Catholicism is not a do-it-yourself religion. It’s a package deal – take all of it or none of it. All that the Church teaches – all her doctrines concerning faith and morals – derive from the same source: the Revelation of God through Christ to the Apostles and from the Apostles to the Church. I believe everything the church teaches because God has revealed it and it is therefore true.

Abortion is murder of the innocent. Capice?

Peace be with you.
JMJ Jay

 

[Joseph_Romero]

Please keep this thread on topic. Discussions of Abortion and Theology of the Body are found in the Moral Theology Forum.

God Bless,

 

[4_marks]

Katholikos:

There are two things that are known about the Catholic Church all over the entire world: her condemnation of abortion and her condemnation of contraception. From the first-century Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles): "Do not murder, do not practice pederasty; do not fornicate; do not steal; do not deal in magic; do not practice sorcery; do not kill a fetus by abortion, or commit infanticide." The* Didache,* older than some ‘books’ of the NT, was written by the Church for the instruction of adult pagan converts.The teaching of the Church has been consistent for 21 centuries. The Catholic Church is first on every list of churches opposing abortion.

Yes, abortion is a theological tenent of Catholicism. See Article 5, The Fifth Commandment, You shall not kill [murder], Abortion, Paragraphs 2270 - 2275 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The 1974 document Declaration on Procured Abortion should be read as well. See also JP2’s encyclical, Evangelium Vitae – The Gospel of Life – and many other official Church documents condeming abortion. Abortion results in automatic excommunication. See also Denzinger’s The Sources of Catholic Dogma. Go here for a partial list of Church documents on abortion, including statements by the United States Council of Catholic Bishops.

silk.net/RelEd/abortion.htm

The Catholic Church hates the sin and loves the sinner, as Christ did. Therefore, she has compassion for those who have fallen into this sin. This in no way constitutes an approval of abortion.

Those who dissent from the teachings of the Church cut themselves off from the Church. A Catholic is one who believes everything the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches. Catholicism is not a do-it-yourself religion. It’s a package deal – take all of it or none of it. All that the Church teaches – all her doctrines concerning faith and morals – derive from the same source: the Revelation of God through Christ to the Apostles and from the Apostles to the Church. I believe everything the church teaches because God has revealed it and it is therefore true.

Abortion is murder of the innocent. Capice?

Peace be with you.
JMJ Jay

The Catholic Church has never officially defined opposition to abortion as a theological dogma. It is, and remains, an issue of morality. The Church may definite it as contrary to the proper moral order expected of Catholic Christians by the Church.

Since people are in various developmental stages of moral awareness, a blanket statement such as “Abortion is murder” cannot be reasonably made. Thus far, God has not divenely intervened to put an end to such offenses once and for all. Instead, he has offered through Jesus Christ, a complete remission of all offense and restoration to newness of life for all who would embrace it.

The “hate the sin love the sinner” approach is not the example of Jesus. I am not aware of any place in scripture where this is commended to us as a general rule of life or a method of ministry. Instead, such an approach leads one into the temptation to become self-righteous and smug, a modern Pharisee. And it pushes away those who need healing and forgiveness and restoration…which we are commanded to bring to them as little Christ’s…Christians…messengers of “Good News” that liberates. People who lack hope are not pre-disposed to virtue.

I ask you. Would you still show unconditional love toward your parish priest if you learned that he was a practicing homosexual? Would you continue to receive communion from him? Or would you rather call the Diocesan office and assemble others together to have him forcibly removed from your parish?

What if you found out that your daughter, assuming you had one, had been pregnant and chose to have an abortion? Would you kick her out of the house? Refuse to talk with her? Beat her mercilessly?

No, we may say trite catch slogans like “hate the sin, love the sinner,” but, alas, we sinners cannot truly mean what we say. Our so-called love is not altruistic by nature. It’s easy to love those who tow the line, follow the rules, obey the norm. It’s not so easy to love the despised tax-collectors, the dirty prostitutes, the unclean Goyim found living in our midst.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

4 Marks, it is not loving at all to call the sin itself good:nope: Abortion is murder,and no you shouldn’t beat someone or throw them out and all this nonsense.You are however called to let them know it was a sin.The Holy Father has the authority to bind and loose,and according to him any one who participates in anyway with abortion is excommunicated until they go to their Bishop for absolution.If we are going to attempt to have a clear voice to protestants,atheist or anyone else we have to be consistant not divided on this issue.It is very easy to minimize abortion ,and unless you have been ripped apart and dismembered you really can’t defend that horrible action as correct.God Bless

 

[4_marks]

4 Marks, it is not loving at all to call the sin itself good:nope: Abortion is murder,and no you shouldn’t beat someone or throw them out and all this nonsense.You are however called to let them know it was a sin.The Holy Father has the authority to bind and loose,and according to him any one who participates in anyway with abortion is excommunicated until they go to their Bishop for absolution.If we are going to attempt to have a clear voice to protestants,atheist or anyone else we have to be consistant not divided on this issue.It is very easy to minimize abortion ,and unless you have been ripped apart and dismembered you really can’t defend that horrible action as correct.God Bless

I am personally opposed to abortion. I am a man. I am incapable of having an abortion myself. I would never advise anyone, for any reason, to have one. I am also not the judge of others who have abortions. I extend to them in Christ only love, forgiveness and heartfelt concern.

To sin is human… to forgive divine.

 

[dmelosi]

I do not understand what you mean that you are not the judge of others who have abortions.
I guess the big question is do you see it as murder?
4 marks:

I am personally opposed to abortion. I am a man. I am incapable of having an abortion myself. I would never advise anyone, for any reason, to have one. I am also not the judge of others who have abortions. I extend to them in Christ only love, forgiveness and heartfelt concern.

To sin is human… to forgive divine.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

4 marks:

I am personally opposed to abortion. I am a man. I am incapable of having an abortion myself. I would never advise anyone, for any reason, to have one. I am also not the judge of others who have abortions. I extend to them in Christ only love, forgiveness and heartfelt concern.

To sin is human… to forgive divine.

You aren’t judging others we are talking about judging the act itself and instructing others it is sinful. If the grave nature of the sin is dismissed the sinner may never even feel the need to ask for Gods forgiveness.God Bless