Protestant eager to become Catholic

[Erick_Ybarra]

Are you not judging me when you telling me that I should not call myself a follower of Christ because I judge?

Do you see the self-contradiction in your exhortation to not judge?

Christians must judge, it is part of the essence to our faith.

Now I whole-heartedly believe that Christ did not come for the righteous, but to call sinners to repentance. Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.

Jesus came in love for evil and sinful people and longed for their forgiveness. But he also knew they would never experience God’s forgiveness if they never repent.

However, when Christ is building His church, He gave clear instructions on how to deal with sinning brothers and sisters. (Matthew 18) " If your brother sins against, go to him and let him know his fault, and if he hears you, you have won your brother. If he does not, take two or three with you, so that by the witness of two or three every word will be established. And if he does not listen, tell it to the Church. And if he refuses to hear even the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax collector"

These are Christ’s commandments with regard to sinful “brothers” who are claiming to follow Christ, and yet are not loving in their lives.

Please do not take offense to this, I am simply concerned for the truth, as we all should be.

 

[damianmark]

Peter??? Isn’t he the man who denied Christ?? Is he the man consumed by jealousy ignored the teachings of Jesus? Is it not that man who was so full of pride that he blasphemed against the true leader of the faith that Jesus had entrusted his mission to? It was he who left his messiah alone “Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?”

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

What about Peter?

Matthew records26:75)
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

and Luke records
So Peter went out and wept bitterly.(luke 24)

There was mercy for Peter because he repented.

Jesus said to him knowing of his sin:

But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren. (Luke 22:23)

And did Peter repent and return to the Lord? You bet he did. He proclaimed Christ before others in the face of persecution as recording by luke in Acts.

There is always mercy and acceptance and love and grace and the sweet embrace of God to those who repent.

However, Judas also wept bitterly. But he was not only judged by God and Christ, but Peter himself judged Judas as evil and deserving of hell in Acts 1:10-20.

And you are not addressing the clear verses that I have provided which clearly command the practice of judgement

 

[JRKH]

It is obvious from all that you are providing that you have given this matter great thought…maybe too much thought. I don’t say that as a criticism but rather as a caution. There is an old saying “The Devil is in the details” and there is truth in this for if one becomes so entangled in details and trying to fit every little piece together they can become frozen and unable to move either forward or backwards.
This is something that I encounter from time to time and find myself just having to trust the Holy Spirit in Christ’s Church

I understand many of the responses here that indicate the the early church fathers were aware of the supreme authority and the special apostolic succession that is in the Church of Rome. However, I still this this as a development, which troubles me very much.
(Snip)
There are many many more exceprts that I can give just like the ones above. It is clear from this historian’s point of view, who is the former vice president for Academic affairs at St. Thomas University in Houston,Tx and who is Father Miller currently working in Rome,** that the Papal supreme office was a gradual concept where there was an increase in the awareness of it’s implications and functions. **

I would readily concede that the papal office has developed over time. So has much of the governance in the Church…Why should this be a surprise or troubling?

This is extremely faith shattering for me as someone who desires to come home to the true church of Christ. If we are to speak of the Pope as the Prime Ministry of the Davidic kingdom here on earth, this type of divine claim has to be proclaimed in full right from the beginning.

Why do you think that it is NOT…The Davidic King here is Christ and he rules forever. He granted to Peter the Keys to the Kingdom and authority to bind and loose (which authority he speaks of more broadly later in Mt 18:15-18)…Knowing that he would not be returning in Peter’s lifetime succession in the office of vicar is only logical.

This is very hurtful to me as someone who wishes to find the idea of papal supremacy, the idea of a Petrine Ministry which continues, the idea that there is a Pope who is the continuing vicar of Peter used by God!

Such has been “bound” by the Church (in accordance with the authority granted it in Mt 18:15-18) from the earliest days.
Yes there have been “growing pains” and other issues with it, but why do these various issues cause you such problem.
In truth - if the role of the Bishop of Rome is so disturbing to you, perhaps you should look to the Orthodox…The “other lung” of the Church as JP II referred to them.
What is the reason that you seek so strongly for confirmation of the Papal office?

Could you imagine if Israel’s history included this type of uncertainty regarding the Davidic office? There was no gradual movements of the function and role (conceptually) of the Davidic throne. In the first place, it was a THRONE, and from this there is the KING, who will REIGN and RULE.

Agreed

So there was no problem for the Messiah’s to take universal authority and dictatorship over the jurisdiction of Israel. This is only because God was explicit in the foundations for this function of David and His appointed heirs. There was no questions about it.

There wasn’t? Then how come so many of the Jews of the time rejected Jesus as Messiah and heir to the Davidic Throne if there was “no question”? Why do so many reject Him and His Church even today?
Consider how you are, in a sense, doing this same thing by dredging through all these details and quotes when you already believe that the Holy Spirit has been Leading the Church from the beginning. Is it not sufficient to say I believe in Christ, I believe in His Promise to lead His Church, I believe in the Guidance of the Holy Spirit leading the Church from the beginning…And however the governance of the Church has evolved over time is fine with me since ti reflects the Will of the Holy Spirit. Therefore I will be faithful to my King who is Christ and to His Kingdom and to His Vicar…
Maybe I’m oversimplifying…but that is how I look at it.

The simple fact of the matter is that when you have a man who claims to possess universal authority over the world, there cannot be a anthropological awareness of this or a gradual recognition…there must be a stamp of approval right from the beginning of this man’s function which is confirmed and ratified by divine constitution.

And a combination of Scripture and logic combine to provide just such a confirmation.

And as I have been reading concerning the Papacy, even Peter himself was unaware of what we call today the Papacy, as is clear from the unanimous consent that the historical institution was a gradual awareness, that it’s full function and role for the world was not known as of yet until several centuries later.

The role of leadership - whether singular (Vicar or Christ) or councilior (Magisterium of the Church) is bound to evolve and develop with the growth of any organization.

What say you.

Quite honestly I say that you are over thinking it. It’s easy to do…
Just remember - “the devil is in the details”…

Peace
James

 

[damianmark]

why should I judge? I am nobody to judge but she who was loved the most by the Messiah has been judged so very harshly. She not he was the true church, even the Devil itself can receive absolution through his sacrifice and suffering

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

If you believe in Jesus you have his right to judge what is good and evil. For he says he whole builds his house on the rock is he who hears these saying of mine and does them. And right in the middle of that teaching session, Jesus told his disciples to not give what is holy to the dogs, nor to cast pearls before swine.

I really do not know how much more can be given to you to convince you that you have created a very unchrist-like foundation for how you think we should live as Christians.

Peter said of the angels “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly”. It doesn’t look like God is going to have mercy on Satan. In fact, the book of Revelation tells us that. God is reserving them for judgement.

And read the first three chapters of the book of Revelation (1-3): Christ rebukes those whom He loves!!! He requires them to repent or they will also be judged. He commends those Churches which practice Godly discpline and who do not tolerate unholiness.

Your whole foundation has to be built upon the word of God and the tradition of our Fathers and Doctors in the faith.

There is of course great mercy and love from Christ, but not at the expense of truth.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

JRKH,

Thank you for those statements. They are extremely worth considering. Especially the point that Jesus will lead His Church in truth and righteousness.

I still have time to give in order to accept a universal supremacy over the Churches. But at the same time, how would I have governed the mission of Christ from Jersusalem onwards? lol. I am just a man.

 

[damianmark]

lol there you go that’s truth you are as I am just a man. How can love be a debase foundation? You only accept the edited version of Christ approved by the council of nicea. Jesus wasn’t exactly Everymans Messiah especially Peters or The Baptists

 

[JRKH]

JRKH,

Thank you for those statements. They are extremely worth considering. Especially the point that Jesus will lead His Church in truth and righteousness.

Glad you found my comments helpful and not offensive…
In some ways I’ve been where you are…except that I tend to go… :whacky::hypno::banghead:… before I get anywhere near the kind of detail you have…
I figure that if the foundation of the Church (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) was strong enough to entrust to some fishermen, a tax collector, a converted pharisee etc…that I can trust that the Holy Spirit has pretty well kept things on track.

I still have time to give in order to accept a universal supremacy over the Churches.

Aww - go on and give in…Honestly it’s so much easier to accept than to “understand”…

But at the same time, how would I have governed the mission of Christ from Jerusalem onwards? lol. I am just a man.

This is actually a very good question and one that led me to accept the hierarchy and papal office more easily…
If I may share…
We know from the NT that “The Church” has universal jurisdiction. Mt 18:15-18 and Acts 15 are very clear indicators of this. Setting aside any particular Petrine issues, we also know that “Bishops” were appointed in various places and that they had authority.
Moving into the “post NT” period, we quickly see the spread of the faith and eventually the great councils among the bishops…Of course before the faith was legalized, it was tough to have meetings and keep good records, but is seems pretty clear that the Bishops communicated with each other.
During these Early days Rome was the center of communications…“All road lead to Rome” was, at that time, a very accurate statement. Tie to that the fact that Both Peter and Paul were martyred there - and of course Peter was the leader of the Apostles…and all of these factors conspire to give the See of Rome a central importance in the administration of the Church and dissemination of teaching etc…Other centers also played a large role…Alexandria being one.
Anyway - - one could probably write a book on the matter but that is not my intent here…
My intent is to illustrate that several factors cooperated to place the successor of Peter in Rome and that, as time went on role of the Bishop of Rome as supreme pontiff evolved more or less just as the Holy Spirit wished…(not forgetting that some of the office holders were less than stellar examples of Christianity)…

Today we have the Universal Church governed from It’s own state, the Vatican - beholden to no one politically. Contained in this tiny “country” are all of the offices needed to protect, defend, promulgate, distribute etc…The fullness of Truth that Christ has entrusted to His Holy Church…

So that is (roughly) how I have viewed the matter…when the question of, “how would I have governed the mission of Christ from Jerusalem onwards”, came to my mind…

Peace
James

 

[po18guy]

Erick,

I think that your lifetime of exposure to a fully-developed bible has skewed your perception just a bit. Christ’s Church, like the bible, did not fall to earth fully-formed. It developed over time along divinely-guided principles. The bible was not the bible until 350 years post-Christ. You certainly do not reject scripture as a troubling development. The Church was in nascent form all throughout scripture. And, conversely, scripture was in development throughout the early Church. The trinity, if anyone even believed in it, is not clearly expressed in scripture - that itself is a development.

I think that you are looking for a finished product at the start of the project.

You agree that scriptural proofs for Peter’s pre-eminence exist.

Christ gave all power on earth to the Church. Whatever they held bound was held bound - and not just in the area of sin. Jesus said “Whatever.” That is inclusive of everything. The Church had the authority to create the Papacy - even if Christ did not establish it with Peter.

It boils down to authority. Bible versus Church. You have grown in your faith viewing the bible as sole authority - yet it nowhere says that it is the sole authority.The men of the reformation declared that. Jesus founded a Church, but inspired scripture to compliment it.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks a bunch guys. I’m gonna read this thoroughly when I get home from work

You know where your local parish is. I suggest that you find out when they offer Adoration of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Go and spend an hour with our Lord. Lay your troubles before Him. Pray. Reflect. Ask for clarity on this subject. Then, be patient - patient as the Lord has been patient with you. You might be amazed sooner, or you might be amazed later, but when you are amazed, you will be changed.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Thanks

Yes I have done this at a local parish and the Lord may be doing something through this.

You mentioned that “Whatever” the Church binds is bound and “whatever” the church looses is loosed. Is there no boundary then to what the Church can do?

Can someone be saved at the final day of judgement if they were Anglican and never came into the Catholic Church?

And since I am reading the Fathers, I notice that just as many views on things that there are now concerning the Rock of the Church, where authority lies, etc,etc…

For instance, the Church has made a dogmatic doctrine that Mary, thought not claimed to be worshiped, can be with all the brethren in the world at the same time, hear all their prayers at the same time, address needs and fill her presence in all place at one time, and that she is alongside Jesus in the salvation of the world and therefore is venerated forever more.

I understand that in the populace of the new heaven and new earth, mary as the mother of God will have a very special place as Jesus’ own mother in the family of God. But to pray to her and for her to have divine salvific power is just going way out of the Church Fathers into what I think is superstition and faith that is created by the men of the Church of God.

 

[po18guy]

Yes I have done this at a local parish and the Lord may be doing something through this.

All that is required is the grace of faith - and patience.

You mentioned that “Whatever” the Church binds is bound and “whatever” the church looses is loosed. Is there no boundary then to what the Church can do?

If we take our Lord at His word, there is no limit. What is important here is to look not at what the Church has done, but what she has not done. She has not changed revealed truth for the sake of expedience. Her members have erred, sometimes rather grievously, but this bad behavior has not changed the truth that she teaches. .

Can someone be saved at the final day of judgement if they were Anglican and never came into the Catholic Church?

God saves whom He will. However, and this is a huge however, Christ established a Church which safeguards the truth and whose Sacraments are the normative conduits of saving grace. Yet, God will not and cannot be limited by man’s desires. I am sure that many Anglicans are in the Lord’s presence - but only in accord with their love and how they cooperated with God’s grace. However,truthful other denominations are, they do not and cannot possess the fulness of revealed truth.

Here, the matter of sufficiency is raised. The local bible community may have sufficient truth to enter the Kingdom of God. Yet, Christ came that we might have life in *abundance *- not to the level of sufficiency.

And since I am reading the Fathers, I notice that just as many views on things that there are now concerning the Rock of the Church, where authority lies, etc,etc…

For instance, the Church has made a dogmatic doctrine that Mary, thought not claimed to be worshiped, can be with all the brethren in the world at the same time, hear all their prayers at the same time, address needs and fill her presence in all place at one time, and that she is alongside Jesus in the salvation of the world and therefore is venerated forever more.

Each of us that are baptized into Christ have become a part of His Body. Does it make sense that only the earthly part of His Body has access to Him? Only the heavenly? He lives and dwells in us. He certainly lives and dwells in those who are in His presence. Remember that God is God, not of the dead, but of the living, for to Him, all are alive. We may see them as dead, but God does not. Remember also that Jesus descended to the dead and preached the Gospel to the spirits in prison. He could not - would not - do that if they were either dead or asleep.

We believe in the communion of Saints - here, in heaven, and on their way to heaven. Nothing may separate us from the love of God and we are united,in that love whether in our bodies or as spirits in heaven. Each part of the Body is related to each other part, even if only in a mysticlal way.

I understand that in the populace of the new heaven and new earth, mary as the mother of God will have a very special place as Jesus’ own mother in the family of God. But to pray to her and for her to have divine salvific power is just going way out of the Church Fathers into what I think is superstition and faith that is created by the men of the Church of God.

Here, you misunderstand the Church teaching on Mary. She is a creature, just as you and I. She has no divine power. Yet, she was conceived of first in the divine intellect, then created by our Lord Jesus for the specific purpose of giving Him flesh. Since no other human being has ever been chosen for this honor, and none ever will be, she is rightly due honor.

No one but God alone is to be worshipped. Yet, Mary sits at her Son’s right hand and intercedes with Him on our behalf. How do we know this? Jesus inherited the throne of David, and there is a seat to the right where Bathsheba sat. Even she interceded on behalf of others with her son, Solomon. As to Mary’s prayers, James says that the prayer of a righteous man avails much. How much greater is the prayer os someone who is sinless and in God’s presence? Someone whom God Himself chose to bear His own flesh? She is given honor commensurate with the honor that God gave her first.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches (and a few others) give her great honor because God gave her great honor. We must not judge as common that which God has exalted, right?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I understand that the body of Christ is not just here on earth, but also in heaven, and they have access to him. But tell me how is it that Mary, as an individual, can hear our prayers being in heaven? You see the prayer of someone in hell towards Abraham in the story of the rich man and Lazarus is different because what we have here is a dialogue, not a prayer to be answered on a later date.

The Catholic claim is that Mary can not only hear the prayer of one person, but of all peoples on the earth, which would mean she is omnipresent. There is absolutely no other way for this to occur. The same logic that is used in the development of the trinity would not allow a human being to have such divination that they can be at all places at all times. Sure, we partake of the divine nature, we will reign the universe with God and will be brothers of the same honor as our Lord Jesus Christ, which entails many divine powers, but not omniprescence. This is one of the elements which the councils used to prove Jesus was God. Are we prepared to say that Mary is God? If not, then we need to be willing to rethink what is going on when every Catholic on the globe is thinking that Mary is dwelling with them and praying with them. On top of this, we have very little about Mary in the earliest fathers. If modern day Catholics were writing in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries, they would have no doubt added things about Mary. It just shows that this doctrine of mary developed and it is not what is once clearly given to the saints (Jude 1).

The previous popes declared that if anyone was not in the Catholic Church, they were cut off from salvation.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

The important thing to understand with “outside the Church there is no salvation” is: what is meant by being “outside the Church”? Here is an explanation from the Catholic Encyclopedia’s 1908 article “The Church”:

*The doctrine is summed up in the phrase, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. This saying has been the occasion of so many objections that some consideration of its meaning seems desirable. It certainly does not mean that none can be saved except those who are in visible communion with the Church. The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven. It is true such acts could not possibly be elicited by one who was aware that God has commanded all to join the Church, and who nevertheless should willfully remain outside her fold. For love of God carries with it the practical desire to fulfill His commandments. But of those who die without visible communion with the Church, not all are guilty of willful disobedience to God’s commands. Many are kept from the Church by ignorance. Such may be the case of numbers among those who have been brought up in heresy. To others the external means of grace may be unattainable. Thus an excommunicated person may have no opportunity of seeking reconciliation at the last, and yet may repair his faults by inward acts of contrition and charity.

It should be observed that those who are thus saved are not entirely outside the pale of the Church. The will to fulfill all God’s commandments is, and must be, present in all of them. Such a wish implicitly includes the desire for incorporation with the visible Church: for this, though they know it not, has been commanded by God. They thus belong to the Church by desire (voto). Moreover, there is a true sense in which they may be said to be saved through the Church. In the order of Divine Providence, salvation is given to man in the Church: membership in the Church Triumphant is given through membership in the Church Militant. Sanctifying grace, the title to salvation, is peculiarly the grace of those who are united to Christ in the Church: it is the birthright of the children of God. The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold. Thus, even in the case in which God saves men apart from the Church, He does so through the Church’s graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritual communion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body. *

 

[po18guy]

I understand that the body of Christ is not just here on earth, but also in heaven, and they have access to him. But tell me how is it that Mary, as an individual, can hear our prayers being in heaven? You see the prayer of someone in hell towards Abraham in the story of the rich man and Lazarus is different because what we have here is a dialogue, not a prayer to be answered on a later date.

The Catholic claim is that Mary can not only hear the prayer of one person, but of all peoples on the earth, which would mean she is omnipresent. There is absolutely no other way for this to occur. The same logic that is used in the development of the trinity would not allow a human being to have such divination that they can be at all places at all times. Sure, we partake of the divine nature, we will reign the universe with God and will be brothers of the same honor as our Lord Jesus Christ, which entails many divine powers, but not omniprescence. This is one of the elements which the councils used to prove Jesus was God. Are we prepared to say that Mary is God? If not, then we need to be willing to rethink what is going on when every Catholic on the globe is thinking that Mary is dwelling with them and praying with them. On top of this, we have very little about Mary in the earliest fathers. If modern day Catholics were writing in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries, they would have no doubt added things about Mary. It just shows that this doctrine of mary developed and it is not what is once clearly given to the saints (Jude 1).

The previous popes declared that if anyone was not in the Catholic Church, they were cut off from salvation.

Two things:

1. Mary’s watch has stopped. Eternally. She is now outside of time. And, so it is with all of the Saints. Just how they hear us is unknown - what is known is that they intercede for us. Revelation tells us that. Far too many miracles of Saintly intercession exist for this to be without foundation. Remember that it is written: “what we will become has not been revealed” to us. We do know that we will become like angels - neither marrying nor being given in marriage. Think of the abilities of angels: time and space travel, moving through solid objects, taking on new forms according to their task, etc.

Heaven is not just earth without bills. It is a spiritual realm - supernatural, as in above and beyond our understanding.

1. The Catholic Church consists of (in the large sense) all validly baptized Christians. How can that be? Well, Baptism is one’s entry into Christendom. Now, some of the baptized are not in full communion with the universal Church - yet they are still believers who are baptized into Christ. This is what is meant by no salvation outside of the Church. No repentance, no faith, no baptism, no salvation. Easy enough.

Remember also that, at the time that many of these statements were made, the Church was rocked by the Arian heresy, which denied Jesus’ divinity. Arians were not christians, and so there was no salvation for them, as they folowed the false teacher, Arius. They were not validly baptized. There have been many such heresies in Church history, and we cannot apply a statement made regarding them to the situation as it exists today.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Regarding the question of saints being able to hear all our prayers, I am not a catechized Catholic, but Revelation provides an interesting image to think about.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3-4
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.

It seems that the saints in heaven hear our prayers in a different way than the way one of us on Earth listens to another with his ears.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Nothing in revelation says they heard the prayers…only that they were given the prayers. And most likely these prayers were originally directed toward God alone…and no one else.

These saints take our prayers to God. It just seems weird to address saints in our prayers.

 

[JRKH]

Nothing in revelation says they heard the prayers…only that they were given the prayers. And most likely these prayers were originally directed toward God alone…and no one else.

These saints take our prayers to God. It just seems weird to address saints in our prayers.

Not sure whether this has been covered or not…Are you aware that nothing in Catholic theology requires one to pray to or through the saints in their private prayer life?
It is true that we invoke the BVM and the Saints during the mass, which is fitting since we are celebrating it along with the entire Church - which includes the Church triumphant.
But in one’s private devotions prayers to the saints is allowed - even encouraged - but never “required” by the Catholic Church.

I rarely invoke a saint during prayer. Most all of my prayers are directed directly to the Father as instructed by Jesus in the Lords prayer.

Peace
James

 

[JM3]

I understand that the body of Christ is not just here on earth, but also in heaven, and they have access to him. But tell me how is it that Mary, as an individual, can hear our prayers being in heaven? You see the prayer of someone in hell towards Abraham in the story of the rich man and Lazarus is different because what we have here is a dialogue, not a prayer to be answered on a later date.

The Catholic claim is that Mary can not only hear the prayer of one person, but of all peoples on the earth, which would mean she is omnipresent.

First, you must understand that Mary is in her resurrected glorious body and has her rewards for her faith in God. We must wait for the last judgement. Mary did not have to wait, by the will of God.

Secondly, to understand the role of the Pope, you will need to research the ‘chair of Moses’ and how it is understood in the jewish faith.

Matthew 23

1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.