Protestant Forum I Checked Out

[mcq72]

People tend to either shape up or ship out under duress.

agree, as john states, "they departed from us , for they were not of us’’

 

[adf417]

The things that concern me came into being after the Bible was produced so I don’t have a difficult time accepting it as Truth and the guide that God intended us to have.

Happy New Year.

I understand. But you first have to assume the church Jesus established did actually fail. Otherwise your assessment would be problematic and noboby likes to admit there are wrong.

Peace!!!
Oh- and Happy New Year to you also!

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

The things that concern me came into being after the Bible was produced so I don’t have a difficult time accepting it as Truth and the guide that God intended us to have.

Happy New Year.

I understand. But you first have to assume the church Jesus established did actually fail. Otherwise your assessment would be problematic and noboby likes to admit there are wrong.

Peace!!!
Oh- and Happy New Year to you also!

Here I am breaking my New Years Resolution by posting without waiting a day!

No, I do not believe the church Jesus established has failed at all. The gates of hell will never prevail against it. He is coming back for her.

 

[mcq72]

But you first have to assume the church Jesus established did actually fail.

But does one first assume that the church is as one envisions it (under Peter/Rome authority) , and
that she can never, never fail in matters important(faith), that she is unconditionally infallible ? There is no precedent for this in OT, and we both agree the OT is full of templates for future, and both the OT NT is full of warnings, despite both being perfectly Shepherded.

For true failing you would have to have zero individuals being faithful, and therefore zero church, zero remnants, which again would be unhistorical, unbiblical.

 

[mcq72]

Here I am breaking my New Years Resolution by posting without waiting a day!

lol…me too…like is there life outside CAF ?..Lord help us

PS…I waited the longest out of you all

Happy New Year brethren!

 

[adf417]

adf417:

But you first have to assume the church Jesus established did actually fail.

But does one first assume that the church is as one envisions it (under Peter/Rome authority) , and
that she can never, never fail in matters important(faith), that she is unconditionally infallible ? There is no precedent for this in OT, and we both agree the OT is full of templates for future, and both the OT NT is full of warnings, despite both being perfectly Shepherded.

I do not know of OT precedent. May there is maybe not. Can you point to the moment in time when the church as you envision (without visible authorty and completely invisible) began?

For true failing you would have to have zero individuals being faithful, and therefore zero church, zero remnants, which again would be unhistorical, unbiblical.

For someone who’s vision of church is as you envisioned, possibly. Change your view of church and your conclusion may differ.

Peace!!!

 

[lilypadrees]

Catholics don’t have to be shunned, disfellowshipped or excommunicated to leave the Catholic Church. Becoming disillusioned and longer believing the teachings of the Church cause many to leave. So do the many scandals.

Do JWs have a way to return to the fold of their church if they have a change of heart? I’ve never heard of any. Mormons do have a way to return to theirs if they choose to do so.

 

[mcq72]

Can you point to the moment in time when the church as you envision (without visible authorty and completely invisible) began?

The church I envision began when Christ began His ministry, and called folks out to believe, and be disciples. Not sure who believes only in Holy Spirit authority, and that not working thru believers with authority.

Understand that some think if you do not believe in papal office you then believe in no authority visible.

 

[adf417]

Do JWs have a way to return to the fold of their church if they have a change of heart? I’ve never heard of any. Mormons do have a way to return to theirs if they choose to do so.

Yes they do. It begins with repentance and follow the teachings of the Watchtower organization.

Peace!!!

 

[adf417]

The church I envision began when Christ began His ministry, and called folks out to believe, and be disciples. Not sure who believes only in Holy Spirit authority, and that not working thru believers with authority.

Understand that some think if you do not believe in papal office you then believe in no authority visible.

So in Acts chapter 15 when it was decided that circumcision was no longer to be considered a Christian practice, those that balked at this “suggestion” and continued along in the practice were still part of the universal Christian church? Obviously this had been going on for a time and based on your understanding we should conclude they did not need an authority to change what they had been doing for this time period and would be perfectly justified in this conclusion.

Peace!!!

 

[mcq72]

For someone who’s vision of church is as you envisioned, possibly. Change your view of church and your conclusion may differ.

yes, thank you. it seems i posted one end of the spectrum, of what is ‘‘failing’’ (or “hell prevailing”). I believe for some, the other end of the spectrum is having just one iota of all the faith/moral doctrinal decrees , be wrong.

 

[adf417]

adf417:

For someone who’s vision of church is as you envisioned, possibly. Change your view of church and your conclusion may differ.

yes, thank you. it seems i posted one end of the spectrum, of what is ‘‘failing’’ (or “hell prevailing”). I believe for some, the other end of the spectrum is having just one iota of all the faith/moral doctrinal decrees , be wrong.

I dont understand.

 

[mcq72]

So in Acts chapter 15 when it was decided that circumcision was no longer to be considered a Christian practice, those that balked at this “suggestion” and continued along in the practice were still part of the universal Christian church? Obviously this had been going on for a time and based on your understanding we should conclude they did not need an authority to change what they had been doing for this time period and would be perfectly justified in this conclusion.

Not sure where you think I would espouse such a notion from Acts 15. I would think that interpretational error on said writ is at one end of the spectrum. At the other end is the notion that apostolic successors, can get together and and be authoritative infallibly, unconditionally ( even more, a head bishop).

 

[adf417]

Not sure where you think I would espouse such a notion from Acts 15.

From this -

But does one first assume that the church is as one envisions it (under Peter/Rome authority) , and
that she can never, never fail in matters important(faith), that she is unconditionally infallible ? There is no precedent for this in OT, and we both agree the OT is full of templates for future, and both the OT NT is full of warnings, despite both being perfectly Shepherded.

I would think that interpretational error on said writ is at one end of the spectrum. At the other end is the notion that apostolic successors, can get together and and be authoritative infallibly, unconditionally ( even more, a head bishop).

Interpretational error from who? Are you still referring to Acts 15? I think i may be loosing you.

Peace!!!

 

[mcq72]

The same church that has preserved the Holy Scriptures through the centuries. If we can trust the church to preserve the Holy Scriptures we can trust her on all things of faith, that is of course assuming you first dont presume this church fell into apostosy. If you cannot trust the church for the historical truth then maybe the book that came from her would be in question also.

The things that concern me came into being after the Bible was produced so I don’t have a difficult time accepting it as Truth and the guide that God intended us to have.

But you first have to assume the church Jesus established did actually fail. Otherwise your assessment would be problematic and noboby likes to admit there are wrong.

No, I do not believe the church Jesus established has failed at all. The gates of hell will never prevail against it. He is coming back for her.

For true failing you would have to have zero individuals being faithful, and therefore zero church, zero remnants, which again would be unhistorical, unbiblical.

For someone who’s vision of church is as you envisioned, possibly. Change your view of church and your conclusion may differ.

yes, thank you. it seems i posted one end of the spectrum, of what is ‘‘failing’’ (or “hell prevailing”). I believe for some, the other end of the spectrum is having just one iota of all the faith/moral doctrinal decrees , be wrong.

I dont understand.

That is the sequence of posts. I think we agree there are two versions of “church” or definitions of “church”.

One says the church did not fail despite needing a reformation. The other submits the church failed if you needed a reformation(that no doctrine needed reforming)

One says the church, or a segment of it, can lose a battle with an error in teaching about faith and morals, but not the war, due to reformation. The other says there is only one church and church authority, and that even losing a battle is like losing the war. It can not ever teach an error for an instant.

 

[mcq72]

Interpretational error from who? Are you still referring to Acts 15? I think i may be loosing you.

based on your understanding we should conclude they did not need an authority to change what they had been doing…in Acts 15

Not sure where you think I would espouse such a notion from Acts 15. I would think that interpretational error on said writ

I thought you to mean again that for my definition of church there is no visible authority , so that Acts 15 would be incongruent to such definition unless you interpret Acts 15 as not really showing need for authority.

I said i do not hold such a definition, nor that interpretation of Acts, that indeed they did have authority to convene and rule. To think otherwise would be error, just as thinking such authority thereafter by successors is unconditionally infallible, or that even a head bishop can be. To me , those are also errors of interpretation of Acts 15.

 

[adf417]

I said i do not hold such a definition, nor that interpretation of Acts, that indeed they did have authority to convene and rule. To think otherwise would be error, just as thinking such authority thereafter by successors is unconditionally infallible, or that even a head bishop can be. To me , those are also errors of interpretation of Acts 15.

I understand and either you said or you quoted Wannano as saying-

The things that concern me came into being after the Bible was produced so I don’t have a difficult time accepting it as Truth and the guide that God intended us to have.

No, I do not believe the church Jesus established has failed at all. The gates of hell will never prevail against it. He is coming back for her.

You cannot have it both ways. Either you trust the church to authoritatively define what scripture is or everything you say about the interpretation of said scripture is irrelevant.

Peace!!!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Which teachings? The ones in effect right now, or the ones form twenty years ago that contradict today’s… or the ones from twenty years before that that contradict both, or maybe the ones from the founder, which don’t really look like anything that’s taught today…?

Do you see the issue here? Their “dogmas” change to suit the moods of the leaders. There’s no truth behind them, just the whims or mortal, sinful men.

 

[adf417]

Which teachings? The ones in effect right now, or the ones form twenty years ago that contradict today’s… or the ones from twenty years before that that contradict both, or maybe the ones from the founder, which don’t really look like anything that’s taught today…?

Do you see the issue here? Their “dogmas” change to suit the moods of the leaders. There’s no truth behind them, just the whims or mortal, sinful men.

Agreed but this was not really a discussion about JW teachings as much as it was an aside.

Peace!!!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Ah, I mistook the purpose. My bad. ^^