Protestant Forum I Checked Out

[mcq72]

well first let me clarify that i meant justifying myself in the sense of ones position or teachings or church etc. I think you took it that way, thank you.

It has certainly been necessary, throughout the history of the Church, to have an infallible authority

Authority yes. Infallible no. The Holy Spirit is His own testifier, thru us and to any hearer. I see declaring infallibility to a false teacher/teachings as a false crutch, that it is not needed for above reason (Holy Spirit). I do not see Athanasius declaring infallibility , but declaring the Word yes, as led by the Spirit. Don’t see any OT prophet declaring the Word by then declaring he is infallible, and you better listen.

Athanasius had authority. He knew where it came from. He had assurance. He knew where it came from. declaring infallibility would seem counter productive, even counter intuitive. What good would that do to one in error ? Athanasius only hope was to declare , to testify, and hope and pray that others be convinced by the Spirit, same as he was, and not because of his infallibility.

There is a reason that some (Old Catholics, Dollinger, Kung) in the CC thought it not wise or necessary for the Pope to declare such a doctrine in 1870.

 

[mcq72]

One of the most important duties of the infallible authority is to provide a framework for rightly understanding the Holy Scripture.

Again, this was done in OT , and they did not need for one sect to declare over the other, infallibiity.

Authority yes, with no adjective of infallible.

 

[mcq72]

But He prayed that we would have unity on earth before that time, and left instruction as to how this was to occur.

No where does Jesus say apostles, even more successors, would be infallible, but that indeed the Holy Spirit would guide them, and yes infallibly. The Holy Spirit unconditionally infallibly guides , but our following is quite conditional, even for our leaders, hence we pray for them, (some of us with no presumption of infallibility) that we may and that our leaders may be perfect.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit is His own testifier, thru us and to any hearer.

Yes, we agree on this also. When Jesus gave His authority to His apostles, He knew they would only be able to exercise it rightly under the movement of the Holy Spirit. When the gift of infallibility is exercised, it is because the Holy Spirit is recognized as speaking.

I do agree that the HS testifies the truth of Christ through us, and to those who hear. Not everyone listens to the testimony, and some misunderstand the testimony.

I see declaring infallibility to a false teacher/teachings as a false crutch, that it is not needed for above reason (Holy Spirit).

I think you have provided the very reason it IS needed. People are fallible, and can mix up the message. The Holy Spirit has always corrected people in the Church, to protect the message.

It is curious that you would be on a forum that is hosted by a “false teacher/teachings and a false church”.

I do not see Athanasius declaring infallibility , but declaring the Word yes, as led by the Spirit.

Exactly! This is why what he was saying was protected by the gift of infallibility. We can all be protected by it, to the extent we espouse the One Faith.

Don’t see any OT prophet declaring the Word by then declaring he is infallible, and you better listen.

Actually, it was clearly understood that it was the Word of God, and was often accompanied by what the consequences would be if the people did not listen.

I am with you, I personally cringe at the statements made claiming infallibility. I don’t think it is necessary to make such declarations, but those who made them must have believed it was. In any case, the declaration about it does not change the fact that the Church needs the gift.

Athanasius had authority. He knew where it came from. He had assurance. He knew where it came from.

Indeed, but so did his opposition. They believed they were right just as much as he believed he was, and they were confident.

Athanasius only hope was to declare , to testify, and hope and pray that others be convinced by the Spirit, same as he was, and not because of his infallibility.

I do not think it necessarily does any good to declare one is infallible. The gift of infallibility protected and promulgated his work. Without this gift, the Church would have continued to go off the rails. In the end, there was a great split, because those who did not accept the infallible teaching divided themselves.

There is a reason that some (Old Catholics, Dollinger, Kung) in the CC thought it not wise or necessary for the Pope to declare such a doctrine in 1870.

You won’t get an argument from me on that! I think it puts light on the wrong aspect of the gift.

 

[guanophore]

No where does Jesus say apostles, even more successors, would be infallible, but that indeed the Holy Spirit would guide them, and yes infallibly.

The gift of infallibility protects the teaching, because the Holy Spirit works through those that Jesus appointed. The Holy Spirit does not guide into diverse and opposite directions. There are too many people who all believe they are being led by the HS that believe opposite doctrines.

hence we pray for them, (some of us with no presumption of infallibility) that we may and that our leaders may be perfect.

God wants all of us to grow into perfection. This can best happen when we have infallible teaching.

 

[AlNg]

I rarely meet a non catholic who fully subscribes to any denomination anymore.

What percentage of Roman Catholics fully subscribe to Roman Catholicism? For example, there are some Roman Catholics who accept artificial birth control for married couples. There are Roman Catholics who believe that a stable divorced couple, living in a civil marriage, should be allowed to receive Holy Communion. There is an american Catholic college which periodically sends out a magazine which congratulates and honors people in same sex marriages. There are some Roman Catholics who are not going to confession as often as they should, and yet receive Holy Communion. Some roman Catholics do not believe it is necessary to attend weekly Mass. Etc. Why single out Protestants as those who do not fully subscribe to the teachings of their church or ecclesial community?
Also, for the general idea that non-catholics do not subscribe to the teachings of their community, I have heard that there are many devout Muslims who pray five times a day on a regular basis. Many carry with them a prayer carpet upon which they will kneel and pray. What percentage of Roman Catholics pray the rosary five times every day?

 

[AlNg]

It prevents the Church from falling into error, which would cause the members of the Church to pass through the gates of hell.

The Eastern Orthodox church has fallen into the error of rejecting papal infallibility. Does that cause the members of the Eastern Orthodox Church to pass through the gates of hell?

 

[guanophore]

The Eastern Orthodox church has fallen into the error of rejecting papal infallibility. Does that cause the members of the Eastern Orthodox Church to pass through the gates of hell?

It certainly increases the risk. It has become very clear that there is not unified leadership in the EO community. They are starting to get into schism with each other, and there is no one who can authoratively make a decision on political issues and conflicts between patriarchs. Where is an EO to go when it is time to “take it to the Church”?

 

[Hope1960]

I’ve been posting on CARM, despite their hateful hostility, in order to learn more about the non-Catholic, particularly ND POV. One or two non- Catholics are nice but that’s about it. In addition to their bitterness, one guy is totally delusional and paranoid.

He accused me of being a “Catholic apologist” “deceptive” and not praying to God, among other things.
All I wanted was to learn more about the ND POV. I told him that but he’s so off the rails that he created a story about what I’m doing there and what I’m going to do on that board, in the future.

He was fun playing with for a night, but talking to him has already become redundant.

He kind of reminds me of Margaret White, Carrie’s mother in the movie “Carrie.”

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

They’re so smug and assured in their victory, yet they never come here to spread their heresies. I even saw someone say Catholics are taught to fear Jesus and pray to Mary instead! Sounds like Jack Chick. One would wonder what would happen if they decided to come here for a while…

 

[adf417]

Just don’t feel we need an infallible office to that end, and don’t feel it is any more efficient , nor wise to presume such thing.

Fine!
Tell it o the OP and the point of this whole thread. There are still those in the world (CARM, Westboro Baptist, JWs…) who consider themselves “Christian” and professing to the world they are each the “real Christians” and you have no definitive way of clearing up this confusion for the many who are searching for truth. :man_shrugging:t3: If you can live with that then so be it. I really dont have much else to say.

I am curious why you waist so much time here in CAF if you really believe the above statment though.

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

mcq72:

Just don’t feel we need an infallible office to that end, and don’t feel it is any more efficient , nor wise to presume such thing.

Fine!
Tell it o the OP and the point of this whole thread. There are still those in the world (CARM, Westboro Baptist, JWs…) who consider themselves “Christian” and professing to the world they are each the “real Christians” and you have no definitive way of clearing up this confusion for the many who are searching for truth. :man_shrugging:t3: If you can live with that then so be it. I really dont have much else to say.

I am curious why you waist so much time here in CAF if you really believe the above statment though.

Peace!!!

Are you complaining that he is wasting his own time here or that he is wasting everyone else’s time? I am curious why you would waste time worrying about why someone else would be wasting time.

 

[adf417]

Are you complaining that he is wasting his own time here or that he is wasting everyone else’s time? I am curious why you would waste time worrying about why someone else would be wasting time.

Im not even going to waist time replying to th… Darn!

 

[Niblo]

wasting time.

ROFL! Superb

 

[MiserereMei25]

I just don’t understand how people think that religions founded 500-1500 years after Christianity are true such as Islam or Protestantism. As if Jesus Christ and his Church wasn’t enough…

 

[mcq72]

I just don’t understand how people think that religions founded 500-1500 years after Christianity are true such as Islam or Protestantism. As if Jesus Christ and his Church wasn’t enough…

And to some it seems that Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and His Word, and fellowship with those changed by Him (past , present) isn’t enough.

Some reformers thought Jesus and the Catholic Church was too much. They desired to go back to simpler times when it was more Jesus and less church, when “confessions” of a council were several pages (Nicea), and not scores (Trent), etc.

Perhaps P’s are no better, but certainly they are not worse, and bear fruit fit for the kingdom and it’s King.

 

[HopkinsReb]

MiserereMei25:

I just don’t understand how people think that religions founded 500-1500 years after Christianity are true such as Islam or Protestantism. As if Jesus Christ and his Church wasn’t enough…

And to some it seems that Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and His Word, and fellowship with those changed by Him (past , present) isn’t enough.

Some reformers thought Jesus and the Catholic Church was too much. They desired to go back to simpler times when it was more Jesus and less church, when “confessions” of a council were several pages (Nicea), and not scores (Trent), etc.

Perhaps P’s are no better, but certainly they are not worse, and bear fruit fit for the kingdom.

Trent might not be the best example, seeing as it was in response to the Reformation. Reformers wrote a great deal; why shouldn’t the Catholic Church write a great deal in response?

 

[mcq72]

Tell it o the OP and the point of this whole thread. There are still those in the world (CARM, Westboro Baptist, JWs…) who consider themselves “Christian” and professing to the world they are each the “real Christians” and you have no definitive way of clearing up this confusion for the many who are searching for truth.

What you think is "clearing up the confusion’’ for those searching, sounds just like every other church who is saying "we are it’’.

The best any of us do is proclaim our faith, which is quite definitive, and let the chips fall where they may, the Holy Spirit helping us, convicting others of His truth. If one becomes Catholic, I doubt it is because they are told they are infallible (per doctrine) solving all confusion, but moved by the merits of Catholicism (and thereafter they may come to believe infallibility).

Again, the message of Jesus Christ is quite definitive (infallible in its own right) for many churches. Bringing up JW is immaterial, for there will always be such groups, and infallibility is not a magic bullet . Jesus did not need the proclamations of any man, or a magic bullet to help those confused in His day ( Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zionists etc. etc.).

The more one lifts up Jesus, the more men will be drawn.

 

[mcq72]

Trent might not be the best example, seeing as it was in response to the Reformation. Reformers wrote a great deal; why shouldn’t the Catholic Church write a great deal in response?

good point, which i knew could come up before i typed but for sake of brevity left out your valid point. Not sure if reform "confessions’’ came before or after Trent. But i think it a mute point. They were only responding to current doctrines and practice of Catholic culture/church.

Again , the prototype is in OT(Moses and Torah, and then by Jesus time a bunch of new laws and practices and doctrine that was not there before) yet Messiah came right on time, despite “confusion”…both testaments perfectly Shepherded.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

…i don’t need such an infallible authority…

Just don’t feel we need an infallible office to that end…

I have a feeling the Holy Spirit is calling you to understand why we all need an infallible office and why He gifted us with it and why it is the Catholic church.

God bless.