Protestant Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines. Are these guys in denial?

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O.S.Luke said:
If Innocent III is in heaven and united with Christ, I have all the doubt in the world that he is horrified about anything, nor worried about minutia like this. The communion of the saints roots for us all, seperated brethren or not.
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lepanto’s view is brittle and ungenerous.

As a convert to the Church myself, I know how much time it took me to up-Church gradually, even considering Religious life in my previous denomination. I was trying “Katholicity” on for size: not vainly imitating it, but testing it in a safe place.
 
There is certainly something wrong with this picture. Would a protestant take the vows of catholics who are under the obedience of the their superiors under the obedience to the pope.

I don’t think the issue here is of monastic life for other faiths, it is the very catholic founders of these orders that is the issue. Thier beliefs were very strong in the true catholic faith and their vows expressed that and were obedient to the Holy Father.

Would the founders of these orders approve?

I hope it is that they are finding their way home to the one true faith.
 
St. Francis wrote down a constitution for his holy order and the pope accepted it. It’s impossible to be franciscan and not to obey the pope. What protestant “hole orders” do is ridiculous. They are pretending to be monks because they are outside the CC. Imagine you produce Coca Cola at home without any permission and you sell it. It’s exactly the same.
 
angelusm said:
Imagine you produce Coca Cola at home without any permission and you sell it. It’s exactly the same.
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Well no, because no sane and healthy person would want to produce or drink Coca Cola (there are many insane and unhealthy persons in the world, including me). Things that have no value except as a brand name can be safely allowed to be a monopoly. But no good thing can be restricted in that way. Good is universally valid.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Well no, because no sane and healthy person would want to produce or drink Coca Cola (there are many insane and unhealthy persons in the world, including me). Things that have no value except as a brand name can be safely allowed to be a monopoly. But no good thing can be restricted in that way. Good is universally valid.

Edwin
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Yes, good is universally valid. But are these groups actually spreading good or are they confusing the faithful and spreading error?

If they are working towards a stated goal of reunification with the Catholic Church then that is wonderful. But are they doing that? Or (to repeat myself since nobody has answered the question) are they merely interested in the self-preservation and propagation of their own communities?

Misappropriating Catholic practices and beliefs is not new. And in every case it is grotesque and offensive. Just look at these false popes and “Catholic” churches:

His Holiness Pope Gregory XVII
geocities.com/Area51/Lair/7170/ibio1.htm

His Holiness Pope Pius XIII
truecatholic.org/pope/

His Holiness Pope Michael
popemichael.homestead.com/

The Liberal Catholic Church International
liberalcatholic.org/

The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
arian-catholic.org/

The Catholic Apostolic Church in North America
cacina.org/

The Contemporary Catholic Church
thecontemporarycatholicchurch.org/

The United Catholic Church
united-catholic-church.org/

Are all these psuedo-popes and psuedo-Catholic churches also spreading good?

If they are not working towards reunificaiton, the Protestant religious communities should disassociate themselves from their Catholic saint namesakes (who surely would disavow them). Integrity demands it. Perhaps they can start the Order of Martin Luther or of Henry VIII…that would be more intellectually honest and respectable.
 
Truly I cant see the problem.
I did not know the Church owned the TM on those orders and they were franchises.
“Imitation is the best form of flatery”
 
lepanto said:
If they are not working towards reunificaiton, the Protestant religious communities should disassociate themselves from their Catholic saint namesakes (who surely would disavow them). Integrity demands it.
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I’m confident that any Protestant who cared to join such an order would be working toward reunification. I can’t imagine any Protestant bothering to be part of a religious order and not caring about reunification. However, our idea of reunification may not be yours–shucks, I strongly suspect that the Pope’s idea is quite different from yours.
Perhaps they can start the Order of Martin Luther or of Henry VIII…that would be more intellectually honest and respectable.
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The Methodists have an “Order of St. Luke” to which my wife belongs. Is that OK? After all, you surely believe St. Luke is Catholic too, so I guess you think we shouldn’t claim him either.

It is no more ridiculous for us to claim St. Augustine and St. Francis than it is for us to claim Jesus and St. Paul. You think that we are bogus through and through. Fine, but why object in particular to our claiming certain relatively late parts of our common heritage. Since you clearly object to Protestantism as a whole, how is this different? You surely know that we don’t think that our heritage began with the Reformation. The fact that we use the Bible should have tipped you off on that score!

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I’m confident that any Protestant who cared to join such an order would be working toward reunification. I can’t imagine any Protestant bothering to be part of a religious order and not caring about reunification. However, our idea of reunification may not be yours–shucks, I strongly suspect that the Pope’s idea is quite different from yours.

The Methodists have an “Order of St. Luke” to which my wife belongs. Is that OK? After all, you surely believe St. Luke is Catholic too, so I guess you think we shouldn’t claim him either.

It is no more ridiculous for us to claim St. Augustine and St. Francis than it is for us to claim Jesus and St. Paul. You think that we are bogus through and through. Fine, but why object in particular to our claiming certain relatively late parts of our common heritage. Since you clearly object to Protestantism as a whole, how is this different? You surely know that we don’t think that our heritage began with the Reformation. The fact that we use the Bible should have tipped you off on that score!

Edwin
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And horror of horrors! Many Catholic monastic Orders receive non-Catholics into associate or oblate status! The End is surely near!

Even the uppity-picky-picky Katholick with a capital “K” Confraternity of Penitents admits non-Catholics (although they cannot make a life commitment) as affiliate members if they submit to the Catholic character of our formation.
 
Contarini

I’m sorry if these posts sound like we are against protestants.

We have been called every name in the book by protestants and most every other religion there is. The anti-catholics come out of the woodwork. We are told that we worship Mary or pray to the dead you name it we even crucify Christ every Mass or what ever lie you want. All of these things are lies about the Church that Jesus Christ established. Few people know what the Catholic Church teaches(even catholics) due to these lies.

The Saints that these groups are using are Men who lives and dies for the Catholic Church the same church then that it is now and always will be. We believe the samething that these men did. The Church teaches and believes the same things then as it does now, so making a vow that these men did would be to be catholic. Don’t feel that we don’t want any one else in on the beauty of this awesome faith and its awesome saints.
 
lepanto said:
Yes, good is universally valid. But are these groups actually spreading good or are they confusing the faithful and spreading error?

If they are working towards a stated goal of reunification with the Catholic Church then that is wonderful. But are they doing that? Or (to repeat myself since nobody has answered the question) are they merely interested in the self-preservation and propagation of their own communities?

Misappropriating Catholic practices and beliefs is not new. And in every case it is grotesque and offensive. Just look at these false popes and “Catholic” churches:

His Holiness Pope Gregory XVII
geocities.com/Area51/Lair/7170/ibio1.htm

His Holiness Pope Pius XIII
truecatholic.org/pope/

His Holiness Pope Michael
popemichael.homestead.com/

The Liberal Catholic Church International
liberalcatholic.org/

The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
arian-catholic.org/

The Catholic Apostolic Church in North America
cacina.org/

The Contemporary Catholic Church
thecontemporarycatholicchurch.org/

The United Catholic Church
united-catholic-church.org/

Are all these psuedo-popes and psuedo-Catholic churches also spreading good?

If they are not working towards reunificaiton, the Protestant religious communities should disassociate themselves from their Catholic saint namesakes (who surely would disavow them). Integrity demands it. Perhaps they can start the Order of Martin Luther or of Henry VIII…that would be more intellectually honest and respectable.
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There a vast difference between:​

  • saying one “hold and teach[es] the Catholic faith that comes to us from the Apostles” as the CC understand that faith & the Church which professes it
    and
    [*]the adoption by Protestants of pre-Reformation things which were dropped at the Reformation, without their claiming to be one in faith with the CC. They make no such claim.
    So the analogy breaks down: Pius XIII & the rest claim to be Catholic bishop in the sense in which Rome understands the word “Catholic” - His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury, by contrast, does not.

And Anglican Franciscans, Anglican Benedictines, the Society of the Holy Cross, & other religious orders & societies in the Anglican Communion, do not claim to be Catholic in the Roman sense either.

So the analogy also breaks down there. So they are not guilty of wrong-doing or inconsistency.

ISTM that a holy & Christ-filled, Christ-adoring Anglican Franciscan is far more really Catholic than a Catholic Franciscan who disgraces his vocation by evil living & unbelief. It is not the cowl that makes the monk, or bodily circumcision that make the son of Abraham, but the Spirit of grace & life & holiness. And if we really believe the words of the antiphon, that “the Spirit of the Lord fills the whole earth”, then our divisions & loyalties & tribalisms are not going to stop the Holy Spirit blessing & sanctifying our Protestant brethren, & making their attempts to serve Him holily, & self-givingly, in obedience to His guidance, fruitful in all sorts of ways.

In fact, the more that our Anglican (& other !) brethren in Christ are blessed by God, & the more fruitful they are in every spiritual & Christian grace & virtue, the better for us - every grace one Christian Church receives, is a blessing to every other. It is not the CC, nor any Church or tradition, that is ultimate - it is Christ, & Christ alone. And if He blesses them, that is reason for us to be grateful 🙂

So no, they aren’t in denial - they are responding to the Spirit of God 🙂
 
Gottle of Geer;2889252:
ISTM that a holy & Christ-filled, Christ-adoring Anglican Franciscan is far more really Catholic than a Catholic Franciscan who disgraces his vocation by evil living & unbelief. It is not the cowl that makes the monk, or bodily circumcision that make the son of Abraham, but the Spirit of grace & life & holiness.
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Who said they are? This is faulty logic. The sanctity of any individuals is not the issue. And even if it was, it has no bearing on the integrity of the community of their charter.
Gottle of Geer;2889252:
And if we really believe the words of the antiphon, that “the Spirit of the Lord fills the whole earth”, then our divisions & loyalties & tribalisms are not going to stop the Holy Spirit blessing & sanctifying our Protestant brethren, & making their attempts to serve Him holily, & self-givingly, in obedience to His guidance, fruitful in all sorts of ways.
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That’s a nice sentiment, yet the reality is they can’t receive Catholic communion because they are OUT of communion with the Church.
Gottle of Geer;2889252:
In fact, the more that our Anglican (& other !) brethren in Christ are blessed by God, & the more fruitful they are in every spiritual & Christian grace & virtue, the better for us - every grace one Christian Church receives, is a blessing to every other.
So no, they aren’t in denial - they are responding to the Spirit of God 🙂
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Spreading the errors of a defective man-made denomination can never a blessing.
 
Lepanto, it is obvious from your first post you wanted to shove this down everyone’s throats and we were to simply be as outraged as you and as militant minded towards it as you. For the sake of running around in circles:

YOU ARE RIGHT AND EVERYONE THAT DISAGREED WITH YOU WAS WRONG. IN NO WAY SHOULD PROTESTANTS MIMIC ANYTHING CATHOLIC UNLESS THEY SPECIFICALLY WANT TO RE-UNITE. IN NO WAY SHOULD PROTESTANTS TRY AND FORM THEIR LIVES AROUND WHAT SOME VERY NOTABLE SAINTS TAUGHT OR LIVED. THE PROTESTANTS SHOULD LEAVE US ALONE AND GO BACK TO BIBLE THUMPING.

That should just about sum it up.
 
blossom02 said:
Contarini

I’m sorry if these posts sound like we are against protestants.

We have been called every name in the book by protestants and most every other religion there is.
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What names do Buddhists call you?

Do you have any idea how childish this kind of statement sounds. “They insult us, so we’ll insult them.” Actually it’s more like “fundamentalists insult us, so we’ll insult those Protestants who would never dream of insulting us and who are targets of fundamentalist attack just as we are.” That’s not only childish, it’s just downright unjust.
The Saints that these groups are using are Men who lives and dies for the Catholic Church the same church then that it is now and always will be.
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You are welcome to believe this by blind faith. But rationally it’s an incoherent statement if you intend it to mean that the Church of the fourth century or the second or the thirteenth is exactly the same in its beliefs and practices as the Church today. And if it’s not exactly the same, then your view that the elements of continuity that you share with the Church of previous ages are the key ones, and the elements that we Anglicans or Methodists or whatever share are irrelevant, is simply an evaluation of what is important.
We believe the samething that these men did.
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No. You don’t. You don’t believe everything St. Dominic believed. I can guarantee you that. And you believe things he didn’t–such as the Immaculate Conception (which his entire order denied for centuries).
The Church teaches and believes the same things then as it does now, so making a vow that these men did would be to be catholic. Don’t feel that we don’t want any one else in on the beauty of this awesome faith and its awesome saints.
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You want everyone to interpret our common heritage exactly as you do, because if we don’t then this threatens your confidence that you and only you (i.e., those in communion with Rome) believe everything that the pre-Reformation Church believed.

Edwin
 
jesusluv said:
YOU ARE RIGHT AND EVERYONE THAT DISAGREED WITH YOU WAS WRONG. IN NO WAY SHOULD PROTESTANTS MIMIC ANYTHING CATHOLIC UNLESS THEY SPECIFICALLY WANT TO RE-UNITE. IN NO WAY SHOULD PROTESTANTS TRY AND FORM THEIR LIVES AROUND WHAT SOME VERY NOTABLE SAINTS TAUGHT OR LIVED. THE PROTESTANTS SHOULD LEAVE US ALONE AND GO BACK TO BIBLE THUMPING.
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But as I pointed out above, and as Catholic apologists point out ad nauseam, we get the Bible from the pre-Reformation Catholic Church as well. If our heritage really began in the sixteenth century, we would have no Bible to thump!

It seems to me that this thread is pointing out the difference between two different Catholic approaches to Protestantism. Some Catholics want to emphasize the differences because they see it as an all-or-nothing matter. Either you are Catholic or you aren’t, and if you aren’t then it’s better to be as anti-Catholic as possible because then there will be no confusion and hopefully you will come to see the folly of your position and go all the way. These Catholics are deeply threatened by high-church, sacramental, moderate Protestantism, because it muddies the waters. This is very much like the fundamentalist Protestant approach (I remember one ex-girlfriend of mine rejoicing that some Chinese acquaintances of hers were atheists rather than devout Buddhists, because that way they were more likely to become Christians–and she had no qualms about applying the same logic to Catholics and Orthodox, for whom she suspected that religion was more likely to get in the way than help them).

Other Catholics, such as you and the Pope, are willing to rejoice in good wherever you find it and see that good as something that intrinsically leads toward reunion by its very nature. All goodness and truth point toward complete goodness and truth. It seems to me that if Catholics really believe that they have the fullness of the Faith, they ought to be confident that any approach toward truth and goodness is an approach toward Catholicism.

Edwin
 
lepanto said:
Spreading the errors of a defective man-made denomination can never a blessing.
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but they are blessed nonethe less. the catholic church just does not have any monopoly on God’s good graces. now be a good christian and be happy for them. 😃
 
lepanto said:
Who said they are? This is faulty logic. The sanctity of any individuals is not the issue. And even if it was, it has no bearing on the integrity of the community of their charter.
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It’s highly relevant to the unkind things said about them - the point needs making. So I made the point, or tried to.​

That’s a nice sentiment, yet the reality is they can’t receive Catholic communion because they are OUT of communion with the Church.
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Is God hindered by man-made obstacles ? No. Their position in canon law, however defective it may be from our POV, is no bar to the communion of saints or to communion in holy things, except in regards to the tangible means. But the grace of them is not barred at all. Other Churches do not need our permission to love & serve God - but we, & they, do have to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. That sensitivity is something no canonical arrangements can supply.​

The sacraments are worthless if they do not communicate grace - that is, if the Holy Spirit does not work through them. The mere possession of sacramental validity by itself is no evidence of fruitful use of them: a valid sacrament can perfectly well be abused & profaned. Conversely, God can easily give grace without the sacraments - they are instituted for our benefit, not His. He does not need valid sacramental forms in order to bestow grace - He is not the prisoner of the Church, but its Lord. He bestows grace for the ends He wishes, when He wishes, on whom He wishes, in the manner He wishes - not as we might wish; which is just as well.

It is not true that they are out of communion with the Church - they are bound to us by many ties. This is Catholic teaching, not mine. The Church is not a club or a party - it’s a body. And as it is a body, Christ’s Body, what affects one part of it affects all - see 1 Corinthians for the details. Every grace that they receive, builds us up, & every grace we receive, builds up them.
Spreading the errors of a defective man-made denomination can never a blessing.
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I would agree, if we did not have plenty of faults & failings ourselves. If God is prepared to work through sinners, how can we sinners in the CC complain of other sinners on the ground of their sins ? God has no need of any Church or person or any other creature - if truthfulness & sinless were all-important, no sinful Christ would even exist: He could do His own work far better without employing us.​

It’s not as though one never hears complaints against the Catholic clergy of all ranks, for their errors, from Catholics. So it does not seem that our not being “man-made” has made us any more reliable than them or others. Truthfulness is not guaranteed by
  • the body one is in
    but by
  • the free activity of God
 
I have always corrected folks when I heard falsehoods about Catholicism. Being a United Methodist in the South, we’re often accused of being too Catholic. I know that at least twice, when construction was taking place in parishes, that the churches I was serving at the time offered our sanctuary for their use for Sunday masses.

I also know when we went through a similar situation, the above Catholic church invited us to use their church, but I was told that while we could hold services of Word at their church, we could not have a baptism or celebrate the eucharist. Which made the offer token at best, since I needed to do both of those things.

I have seen Protestant-bashing as I never thought existed among Catholics until I started visiting CAF. Is this the way some Catholics feel, is it “tit for tat”?

It seems to me that if you want Catholic bashing to stop, but you will still continue to bash Protestants and use the “We’re the only ones who are right” card, you’re not only going to continue to suffer bigotry, you’re going to incite and encourage it.

I am less and less impressed with Catholics as time goes on. Between the bigotry here on CAF and the bigotry I’m encountering in the area I live in, I’m ready to quit attending Catholic funerals and weddings altogether. I’m certainly not going to participate in services even when invited; sounds like they’re given thru clenched teeth anyway.

O+, a member of the Order of St. Luke
 
Judging for their handles most of the protestant bashers are semi SSPX traditionals. And yes, insulting protestants who recognize a common heritage with catholics will really going to take the Church places. The James Whites, John McArthurs, John Agees and others are really going to be hurt by that. Last time I checked Bob Jones University, The Pensacola Christian College and the Southwest Baptist Seminar were desperate trying to create monastic orders.
Guys get real. The protestants who start monastic orders are our friends.
 
lepanto said:
Yes, good is universally valid. But are these groups actually spreading good or are they confusing the faithful and spreading error?

If they are working towards a stated goal of reunification with the Catholic Church then that is wonderful. But are they doing that? Or (to repeat myself since nobody has answered the question) are they merely interested in the self-preservation and propagation of their own communities?

If they are not working towards reunificaiton, the Protestant religious communities should disassociate themselves from their Catholic saint namesakes (who surely would disavow them). Integrity demands it. Perhaps they can start the Order of Martin Luther or of Henry VIII…that would be more intellectually honest and respectable.
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There is nothing wrong with Protestant religious orders. They are not made up of ex-Catholics. There is no “sheep-stealing” involved. The members of these orders are people who were born into Protestant churches, not reformers who started a new church. Should we ban Protestants from celebrating All Saints’ Day? It was a feast started by Catholics. Since the Catholic Church originally had the Bible, should we ban Protestants from owning one? What about Sunday worship? Should Protestants be forbidden to worship on Sunday since Catholics started the practice? I could go on and on with this. To any Protestants who have been hurt by the lack of charity on this thread, please do not think that all of us Catholics are like that. :hug1:
 
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