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Lepanto
Guest
I acknowledge the role of Eastern monastics, but that would be off-topic. The topic of this thread, as it’s title says, is “Protestant Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines.”
Protestant Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines. Are these guys in denial?
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latin_rite
Guest
some have said that the anglican and lutheran “churches” sprung from the catholic church. What! who are they kidding? they fell from the truth the same way a rotten apple falls from a tree. the same with these " Protestant Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines." i guess they are either too weak or are not permitted by their families to follow the truth. but one thing they do remind me of are…well i don’t if I’m allowed to say this word here but it starts with w and ends with r. you know the little confused white kid, who dresses like his fave rapper. you know the ones who want to be black but cant be. so he can only play pretends? a lot like these " Protestant Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines."
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mercygate
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One of the great “Catholic” things I learned while being guided through the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises by a Jesuit priest (while I was still an Episcopalian) was that we always try to look at things in the best possible light.
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jesusluv
Guest
This is just a standard response I’ve come to expect from this site in the last couple of years. Very uninformed, based on complete opinion without actually looking to see, for instance, the point of view that these protestants have on the religious orders.
Common sense tells me, very simply, that Anglicans, Lutherans, or whatever protestant denomination feels the call to start a religious order is NOT wishing they could be RC so they could “really” belong to an order.
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Peter_J
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I largely have to agree with you, jesusluv, except that what you’re saying about Catholic posters, I would say also about Protestant and Orthodox posters. (As I told another poster recently, it’s important to do an apples-to-apples comparison. In other words, take a look at CAF and at a typical sampling of Protestant and Orthodox discussion forums, and then ask “Is CAF any worse in their treatment of non-Catholic Christians than those other forums are in their treatment of Catholics?” If you do that, I think you’ll have to answer in the negative.)
I think too many posters, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, treat a discussion as a tug-of-war. Rather than trying to convince people through argument, they simply try to state their position more often and more forcefully than the other guy.
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1234
Guest
Well, I don’t know about the Dominicans, who persecuted the Jews in Spain, but the Benedictines date from the 5th c., at which time the Roman Catholic church still lacked a lot of its post Counter-Reformation trappings. All osb’s follow, to differing extents, an ancient rule. The Franciscan charism emphasizes the spirit of poverty and, currently and increasingly in all orders, a green agenda, which the RC church doesn’t have the patent on.
All of the Anglican orders in the UK and USA are small, if that makes you feel better. But they are growing in Africa and Asia, like the RC orders. People, especially women, who want food, shelter, safety, an education aren’t too concerned about origins.
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Dempsey1919
Guest
It doesn’t bother me if the Protestants want to form their own versions of Catholic Orders. However, I do find it ironic that members of the Church of England would do this, knowing that their founder King Henry VIII dissolved all of the ancient Monasteries during the Reformation. Contemporary Anglicans are undoing the works of their founding fathers; they are not staying true to their Protestant roots.
The worldwide Anglican movement is PROTESTANT, not Catholic. I find it absurd that many modern Anglicans would label themselves as “catholic.” To be Catholic is to be united with the Roman Pontiff.
Anglican “catholics” are simply protestants who have adopted Catholic spirituality and forms of worship. They realise that their religion lacks history and choose to borrow traditions from the Catholic Church.
Anglican catholicism is counterfeit-catholicism; it may resemble the original, but it is not the real thing. Likewise, the Anglican Orders are counterfeit Orders; they are not the real thing, they are just copies of the originals. The Anglican Orders are not ancient; all of the Orders were expelled out of England during the Reformation. The modern Anglican Orders are an attempt by the so-called Anglican catholics to reclaim (steal) what they lost during the Protestant revolt.
I can see why the OP finds it strange that the Anglican Church would create their own versions of Catholic Monastic Orders. Afterall, the founders of these Orders were staunch Catholics. Many of them even fought against heresy; the Dominicans were instrumental in combating the Albigensian heresy for example. Protestantism is basically a heresy; and I find it odd that Protestant denominations would endeavor to follow the traditions of those who fought against heresies. If St. Dominic or St. Augustine were alive today, they would be doing their best to reunite the Anglicans with Rome.
Imagine if the Albigensians were still around today and formed a Dominican Order. They would be following the example of a man who fought against them. The Anglicans, in copying Monastic Orders, are following the examples of men who would have fought against them if alive today.
The worldwide Anglican movement is PROTESTANT, not Catholic. I find it absurd that many modern Anglicans would label themselves as “catholic.” To be Catholic is to be united with the Roman Pontiff.
Anglican “catholics” are simply protestants who have adopted Catholic spirituality and forms of worship. They realise that their religion lacks history and choose to borrow traditions from the Catholic Church.
Anglican catholicism is counterfeit-catholicism; it may resemble the original, but it is not the real thing. Likewise, the Anglican Orders are counterfeit Orders; they are not the real thing, they are just copies of the originals. The Anglican Orders are not ancient; all of the Orders were expelled out of England during the Reformation. The modern Anglican Orders are an attempt by the so-called Anglican catholics to reclaim (steal) what they lost during the Protestant revolt.
I can see why the OP finds it strange that the Anglican Church would create their own versions of Catholic Monastic Orders. Afterall, the founders of these Orders were staunch Catholics. Many of them even fought against heresy; the Dominicans were instrumental in combating the Albigensian heresy for example. Protestantism is basically a heresy; and I find it odd that Protestant denominations would endeavor to follow the traditions of those who fought against heresies. If St. Dominic or St. Augustine were alive today, they would be doing their best to reunite the Anglicans with Rome.
Imagine if the Albigensians were still around today and formed a Dominican Order. They would be following the example of a man who fought against them. The Anglicans, in copying Monastic Orders, are following the examples of men who would have fought against them if alive today.
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Lepanto
Guest
Exactly!
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Dempsey1919
Guest
Another thing I find very strange is that some Anglicans even venerate Catholic Saints who were martyred during the Reformation!
The same Church responsible for the death of St. Thomas More now venerate him as a Saint!
Makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
The same Church responsible for the death of St. Thomas More now venerate him as a Saint!
Makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Why ? Because to be in a Church is not like being on a bus - a Church is not something to be changed in a moment & for no serious reason; any more than being part of a body allows a muscle to wander off to a healthier body, the moment the one it’s part of falls ill.
If in Rome alone & nowhere else grace was found, people would need to “go to Rome” - but grace is not found in Rome alone; it can be found elsewhere. People stay because they have integrity - not despite having it. Having integrity can lead to becoming Catholic; to staying Anglican; to leaving Rome for Anglicanism; or to something else.Why should people leave the Church they are in over one issue, if on others they don’t agree w/ Rome ? Many Protestants are very pro-life - does that mean they should stop being (say) Baptists & become RCs ? Neither then should Anglicans become RCs merely because they value the Rule of St. Benedict or the Eucharist or the Bible or the life of prayer or any other good thing common to both.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Maybe because it’s possible to recognise the presence of God in others, even if in this life they did not belong to a group now honouring them ?
He’s not venerated as a “RC” - but because those Anglicans who decided to put him in the Anglican calendar thought he was a holy man. That the two Churches were at daggers drawn in the 16th century, does not mean they have to be now: to be Anglican does not compel Anglicans to say “Oh, he was nasty to our fathers 400 years ago - we can’t honour* him*”. Why should Anglicans perpetuate the grudges of the past ?Besides, if all are one in Christ in Heaven, & if Anglican & Catholic Saints can be at one in Heaven: why can’t they be recognised on earth as being at one ? Putting “non-Anglicans” in the Anglican calendar is good NT theology.
Some Catholic rites include Orthodox Saints in their calendars: is there a difference in principle from the presence of St. Thomas More in an Anglican one ?
Back to the topic…
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Dempsey1919
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The Anglicans killed him! St. Thomas More stood against your religion and died for it. He was loyal to the Pope.
The Anglicans have no choice but to venerate him “as a RC” because St. Thomas is and was a Roman Catholic.
The Anglicans venerate our Saints and copy our Religious Orders because they have no Saints of their own, and they destroyed all of the historical Monasteries of England during the Reformation.
There are no Anglican Saints. The Anglican Church splintered out of the Roman Catholic Church and continued to venerate many Catholic Saints. Any and all elements of truth that is contained within the Anglican Church comes from the Catholic Church.
As I said, Anglicanism is counterfeit Catholicism.
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Milliardo
Guest
As far as the Benedictines are concerned, Anglican Benedictines are still Benedictines to them, and they share this fraternal bond with them; it goes beyond belonging to the Catholic or Anglican Church. I would think this is also true for the Augustinians and Franciscans. I think it would disturb Catholics to know that these religious orders actually see their Protestant counterparts to still belong in their religious orders. It doesn’t seem to be a problem to them, so why be bothered about it?
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Peter_J
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I would think so, yes. And, conversely, I imagine some Protestant Benedictines would be troubled by the existence of Catholic Benedictines.
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Dempsey1919
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I am sure they enjoy friendly relations as far as ecumenism goes, but it would be wrong to see this as full communion. The Anglican “Benedictines” are not in communion with the ancient Benedictine Order which forms part of the Catholic Church.
These two Orders may have friendly relations because they both follow the Rule of St. Benedict and strive to follow the example set by this holy Saint, but they are not one and the same; they are separated by faith and doctrine.
The may appear to be the same, but they believe in different religions.
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jesusluv
Guest
No, they believe in the same religion(Christianity), just not the version Roman Catholics subscribe to.
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Lepanto
Guest
We have now reached the point of absurdity where some believe that an apple is indeed an orange.
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jesusluv
Guest
I’m not trying to be absurd. The whole idea that Anglicans/Lutherans/Whoever else can’t have religious orders or a monastic life is absurd. If the prerequisite was being the originals, then our Catholic orders would be null since the church borrowed the whole idea of monasticism from other religions.
This whole topic, just like most others on this non-catholic forum, is another “I’m right, you are wrong, here is why…but of course I want your opinions so I can refute them”.
This whole topic, just like most others on this non-catholic forum, is another “I’m right, you are wrong, here is why…but of course I want your opinions so I can refute them”.
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Dempsey1919
Guest
They are Christians indeed, but they don’t follow the Catholic religion. The original Benedictines follow the Catholic religion as taught in the Catechism. The Anglican Benedictines follow the Anglican religion. There are quite a few major differences between Catholicism and Anglicanism.
However, despite these differences they both follow the faith of Christianity while following separate religions.
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Lepanto
Guest
Anglicans, etc. can certainly have their own religious orders if they want. That’s not the issue here.
The issue is they cannot, by virtue of their material disobedience to the Catholic Church, be authentic Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines.
The whole idea is as absurd as Protestant Jesuits or Albigensian Dominicans. It’s a contradiction of terms.
This would all be a non-issue if Anglicans, etc. want to start their own religious orders so long as they don’t appropriate the good names of Catholic saints for their organizations.
Better yet…why not just convert and be authentic? What are they still protesting?
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