Protestant Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines. Are these guys in denial?

[Br_Mark]

As a benedictian (RC) I thougth that I should throw in my two cents worth of thought on the subject.

There are several Anglican monastic communities (all Benedictian Monasteries are independent) of Benedictians, and most of those ( In fact all of them as far as I know are members of the world wide federation of benedictians) Since the RC Benedictians do not have a problem with Anglican or Lutheran Benedictians; I have a problem seeing why any one else would have a problem with it.

In “our” rule we are told to prefer nothing to Christ.
****We are called into communion by our baptismal covenant. In Christ we are called to be one, not many; it is a result of our sins that keep us seperate.
I am aware of many RC / Anglican Benedictian communities that share in their spiritual journeys; i.e. Daily Offices, Eucharist as well as other worship services.

For example an Anglican Benedictian community, Companions of St Luke - OSB have their Chapter Meetings and calling of their Abbot at a Catholic Benedictian Monastery.

In Christ’s service,

Br Mark, OSB

 

[Peter_J]

As a benedictian (RC) I thougth that I should throw in my two cents worth of thought on the subject.

There are several Anglican monastic communities (all Benedictian Monasteries are independent) of Benedictians, and most of those ( In fact all of them as far as I know are members of the world wide federation of benedictians) Since the RC Benedictians do not have a problem with Anglican or Lutheran Benedictians; I have a problem seeing why any one else would have a problem with it.

In “our” rule we are told to prefer nothing to Christ.
****We are called into communion by our baptismal covenant. In Christ we are called to be one, not many; it is a result of our sins that keep us seperate.
I am aware of many RC / Anglican Benedictian communities that share in their spiritual journeys; i.e. Daily Offices, Eucharist as well as other worship services.

For example an Anglican Benedictian community, Companions of St Luke - OSB have their Chapter Meetings and calling of their Abbot at a Catholic Benedictian Monastery.

In Christ’s service,

Br Mark, OSB

Thank you for that post, Br. Mark.

I guess, without really thinking about it, I always assumed that non-Catholic Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines weren’t “real” Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines (and conversely, that non-Catholic Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines didn’t consider Catholic Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines to be “real” Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines).

Thinking about it now, though, I guess I can see what you mean. An analogy: it seems like if the Eastern Orthodox were to look at Byzantine-Rite Catholic and say “Well they’re not really Byzantine-Rite because they’re not Orthodox.” (Or vice versa.)

 

[jesusluv]

As a benedictian (RC) I thougth that I should throw in my two cents worth of thought on the subject.

There are several Anglican monastic communities (all Benedictian Monasteries are independent) of Benedictians, and most of those ( In fact all of them as far as I know are members of the world wide federation of benedictians) Since the RC Benedictians do not have a problem with Anglican or Lutheran Benedictians; I have a problem seeing why any one else would have a problem with it.

In “our” rule we are told to **prefer nothing to Christ.**We are called into communion by our baptismal covenant. In Christ we are called to be one, not many; it is a result of our sins that keep us seperate.
I am aware of many RC / Anglican Benedictian communities that share in their spiritual journeys; i.e. Daily Offices, Eucharist as well as other worship services.

For example an Anglican Benedictian community, Companions of St Luke - OSB have their Chapter Meetings and calling of their Abbot at a Catholic Benedictian Monastery.

In Christ’s service,

Br Mark, OSB

Thank you for this response, perhaps it will finally close the topic and those that have spit venom in it the entire time can go do so on another subject.

 

[mercygate]

As far as the Benedictines are concerned, Anglican Benedictines are still Benedictines to them, and they share this fraternal bond with them; it goes beyond belonging to the Catholic or Anglican Church. I would think this is also true for the Augustinians and Franciscans. I think it would disturb Catholics to know that these religious orders actually see their Protestant counterparts to still belong in their religious orders. It doesn’t seem to be a problem to them, so why be bothered about it?

Actually, England was a “Benedictine” country. It would be most natural for monasticism in the Anglican churches to reach back into their pre-Reformation past to recover a spirtuality that formed the spirituality of the mother church.

 

[Lepanto]

As a benedictian (RC) I thougth that I should throw in my two cents worth of thought on the subject.

There are several Anglican monastic communities (all Benedictian Monasteries are independent) of Benedictians, and most of those ( In fact all of them as far as I know are members of the world wide federation of benedictians) Since the RC Benedictians do not have a problem with Anglican or Lutheran Benedictians; I have a problem seeing why any one else would have a problem with it.

In “our” rule we are told to prefer nothing to Christ.
****We are called into communion by our baptismal covenant. In Christ we are called to be one, not many; it is a result of our sins that keep us seperate.
I am aware of many RC / Anglican Benedictian communities that share in their spiritual journeys; i.e. Daily Offices, Eucharist as well as other worship services.

For example an Anglican Benedictian community, Companions of St Luke - OSB have their Chapter Meetings and calling of their Abbot at a Catholic Benedictian Monastery.

In Christ’s service,

Br Mark, OSB

Br. Mark,

With all due respect, I know a number of Benedictines, Jesuits and diocesan priests who would strongly disagree with you. And even if you are a Benedictine, you do not speak for the entire order any more than does anyone else on this board.

You say, “Since the RC Benedictians do not have a problem with Anglican or Lutheran Benedictians; I have a problem seeing why any one else would have a problem with it.” Are you speaking on behalf of the entire “RC Benedictian” congregation? If not, who in authority made such a sweeping statement?

And even if the Superior General held your position, it would not change the reality that Protestants are NOT in communion with Rome, and therefore Protestant “orders” are not legitimate offshoots of legitimate orders.

We need to be on guard of false ecumenism leading to indifferentism, and I think that’s what we have here. Until we can start calling a spade a spade and stop reaffirming the errors of Protestants, they will never have an incentive to reunite with the Catholic Church and Christendom will forever remain shattered.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Actually, England was a “Benedictine” country. It would be most natural for monasticism in the Anglican churches to reach back into their pre-Reformation past to recover a spirtuality that formed the spirituality of the mother church.

The key word in the above paragraph is “was”. England “was” a Benedictine country. The use of this word implies that it ceased being a Benedictine country. England ceased being a Benedictine Country during the Reformation when King Henry VIII dissolved the Monasteries.

I live two miles away from the ruins of a beautiful Monastery which dates from the 10th Century. This Monastery was absolutely ravaged during the Reformation, and many of the Monks were slaughtered.

The contemporary Anglican Orders do not trace their ancestry to the ancient Orders which existed in England. These Orders were rejected because the established Church in England rejected the faith upon which they were built.

The only spirituality the Anglicans are recovering is Catholic spirituality, and they are no longer Catholic. Rather than try to copy Catholic Orders, why don’t they join the original, authentic Orders that existed in England, and continue to exist today? They are the true Monastic Orders of the Catholic Church.

 

[Lepanto]

The key word in the above paragraph is “was”. England “was” a Benedictine country. The use of this word implies that it ceased being a Benedictine country. England ceased being a Benedictine Country during the Reformation when King Henry VIII dissolved the Monasteries.

I live two miles away from the ruins of a beautiful Monastery which dates from the 10th Century. This Monastery was absolutely ravaged during the Reformation, and many of the Monks were slaughtered.

The contemporary Anglican Orders do not trace their ancestry to the ancient Orders which existed in England. These Orders were rejected because the established Church in England rejected the faith upon which they were built.

The only spirituality the Anglicans are recovering is Catholic spirituality, and they are no longer Catholic. Rather than try to copy Catholic Orders, why don’t they join the original, authentic Orders that existed in England, and continue to exist today? They are the true Monastic Orders of the Catholic Church.

My first time in the UK was in 1992. I visited a number of monasteries that had been destroyed during the so-called “Reformation.” The ruins that I saw, especially at the abbeys near Kenilworth and Coventry brought tears to my eyes – not so much because of the destroyed cloisters, but because of the destroyed unity among Christians.

A brief description of this shameful period of English history is here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries

If anyone wants to read about the destruction of the English monasteries and their orders in detail (“dissolved” is more polite but also less precise), you can read this scholarly book:

The Stripping of the Altars: Traditional Religion in England, 1400-1580

amazon.com/gp/product/0300060769/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear Lepanto,

No I am not the Grand Poopa !! I am just a monk. I am not speaking for the entire bendictian community. As you know or should know each benedictian community (monastery) is a member of a federation, but even with that in mind each community is independent.

Regardless of how ether one of us feels about it, the fact**** remains that in the world wide federation of benedictians there are RC, Anglican, Lutheran and ecumenical benedictians.

As far as I know, I have never heard of a “protestant” claiming to be in union with Rome. How would you “judge” those religious orders that claim to be Roman Catholic but are not authorized by the local ordinary or by the Vatican, I.E. those communities which are SSPX. Are these communities legit ? And how do you “judge” those religious communities that belong to the Orthodox Church ? They are not in Union with Rome either.

As I stated in my first post it is our sins that keep us seperated and it is the wish / prayer of Christ that we be one.

Br Mark, OSB

Unity in things essential, diversity in things that are not and charity in al things

 

[O.S.Luke]

Br. Mark:

Thank you for one of the most gracious posts I have ever read here at CAF. God bless you always.

O+

 

[jesusluv]

Very well put, Br. Mark. What you say may not be very well received here by some, but I agree with you whole-heartedly and would think you have a more complete view of the subject, since you are on the inside looking out instead of the outside looking in.

 

[mercygate]

The key word in the above paragraph is “was”. England “was” a Benedictine country. The use of this word implies that it ceased being a Benedictine country. England ceased being a Benedictine Country during the Reformation when King Henry VIII dissolved the Monasteries.

I live two miles away from the ruins of a beautiful Monastery which dates from the 10th Century. This Monastery was absolutely ravaged during the Reformation, and many of the Monks were slaughtered.

The contemporary Anglican Orders do not trace their ancestry to the ancient Orders which existed in England. These Orders were rejected because the established Church in England rejected the faith upon which they were built.

The only spirituality the Anglicans are recovering is Catholic spirituality, and they are no longer Catholic. Rather than try to copy Catholic Orders, why don’t they join the original, authentic Orders that existed in England, and continue to exist today? They are the true Monastic Orders of the Catholic Church.

Sometimes you have to walk back home on a different road from the one that took you away. You are knowledgeable about Anglican monasticism. Therefore you are aware that several English and other Anglican Communities have come into the Catholic fold as a body. I think immediately of Prinknash Abbey and the American Franciscans of the Atonement, known as Greyfriars (and sisters).

I believe we should spend less time carping at the defects of such foundations and more time working positively to encourage the kind of relationship that will cause them to see that Rome is Home. To my mind, the desire to live the monastic life is already a step in the right direction. The Prodigal’s father ran down the road to meet him; he didn’t humiliate him.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Is there an identity problem here? Are these guys in denial?

s-s-f.org/

staugustineshouse.org/

I see one thing here, that the things they hate most in the CC are those things they most desire.

:knight2: :knight2: .

 

[mercygate]

I see one thing here, that the things they hate most in the CC are those things they most desire.

:knight2: :knight2: .

I saw nothing of “hatred” for the CC in these links.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I believe we should spend less time carping at the defects of such foundations and more time working positively to encourage the kind of relationship that will cause them to see that Rome is Home.

I see your point. Hopefully, they will begin to see the error of their ways, and instead of practicing a form of pseudo-Catholicism, they will come to embrace the fullness of truth in accordance with the will of their Patron Saints.

 

[mercygate]

I see your point. Hopefully, they will begin to see the error of their ways, and instead of practicing a form of pseudo-Catholicism, they will come to embrace the fullness of truth in accordance with the will of their Patron Saints.

This can take a long time. I see these folks as war casualties – even if the war was 500 years ago. We should do rescue missions, not exterminations.

 

[Dempsey1919]

This can take a long time. I see these folks as war casualties – even if the war was 500 years ago. We should do rescue missions, not exterminations.

Sadly, I don’t think it’ll ever happen. There will always be an independent Church of England. This is a real shame because the Anglicans would receive the fullness of the true faith, and the Catholics would be able to reclaim the historical Christian sites of England such as Canterbury and the Cathedrals.

 

[mercygate]

Sadly, I don’t think it’ll ever happen. There will always be an independent Church of England. This is a real shame because the Anglicans would receive the fullness of the true faith, and the Catholics would be able to reclaim the historical Christian sites of England such as Canterbury and the Cathedrals.

The subject of this thread is non-Catholic monastic/religious communities. As I pointed out earlier, several have already crossed the Tiber AS communities.

 

[Dempsey1919]

The subject of this thread is non-Catholic monastic/religious communities.

I know exactly what the subject of this thread is, and I am not trying to hijack it either. I’m expressing my sadness for the fact that the Monastic Orders on both sides do not unite as a whole. My comment was perfectly acceptable and did not change the subject of this thread.

 

[Lepanto]

Sometimes you have to walk back home on a different road from the one that took you away. You are knowledgeable about Anglican monasticism. Therefore you are aware that several English and other Anglican Communities have come into the Catholic fold as a body. I think immediately of Prinknash Abbey and the American Franciscans of the Atonement, known as Greyfriars (and sisters).

It also works the other way around. A gross misunderstanding of the authentic intent of ecumenism destroys Catholic religious communities.

This Benedictine women’s monastery in the diocese of Madison, Wisconsin had drifted away from the Catholic Church for decades, until they voluntarily went into schism in 2006. The Vatican and Bishop Morlino of Madison rightly no longer recognize their (shrinking and aging) community as Catholic.

Unfortunately, the community does injury to the Benedictine Order by retaining “Benedictine” in their name. (It’s good for marketing their retreats, one supposes.)

catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=7086

External forces (e.g., Anglican Communion) can destroy Catholic religious communities, but so can forces from within such as misunderstood ecumenism.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Anglicans killed him! St. Thomas More stood against your religion and died for it. He was loyal to the Pope.

The Anglicans have no choice but to venerate him “as a RC” because St. Thomas is and was a Roman Catholic.

Let me rephrase that so that you (& maybe others) understand. He is venerated, not in so far as he is RC, but insofar as he is a holy man. People are a lot of things: he was RC, an Englishman, a Lord Chancellor, a humanist, etc… That he was RC is irrelevant to the inclusion of his name in the C of E calendar; as are the other things listed. The holiness is why he is in it.​

I hope that clears things up.

The Anglicans venerate our Saints

They are not ours, but God’s. Why are people so keen on grabbing things God has given us, as though we had property rights over them ?​

and copy our Religious Orders because they have no Saints of their own, and they destroyed all of the historical Monasteries of England during the Reformation.

That is not the case; they have many Saints. The idea that God can work only in the CC is not even in accord with Catholic teaching: & it leads to the conclusion that non-Catholics cannot be converted (how can they be, if God is able to work only in the CC ?). And if God can give grace to Anglicans, He can give grace to make them holy; as He often has.​

As for the monasteries - why bring that up ? That was 450 years ago. How does dragging up the grudges of the past do any of the Churches concerned any good ? If we Catholics can do it, it is not clear why others should not list our sins, especially our recent ones. How is it Christian to do that ?

There are no Anglican Saints. The Anglican Church splintered out of the Roman Catholic Church and continued to venerate many Catholic Saints. Any and all elements of truth that is contained within the Anglican Church comes from the Catholic Church.

As I said, Anglicanism is counterfeit Catholicism.

How does that (even if true, which it is not) stop God raising up Saints outside the CC ? Not only does it not do so in principle - neither has done so it in fact. God does not need the permission of any Church or man in order to grant His grace as He wills.​