Protestant Friend Doesn’t Like Hymns About Mary

[CampionTheChampion]

I need help explaining something to a friend. I honestly think she’s close to opening up to Catholicism a bit more, but the main thing blocking her consideration is fear of worshiping Mary.

The new thing she keeps harping on is that by singing hymns about Mary we are praising her in the same way we praise God, so it’s too easy to accidentally worship Mary. She also said she thought if she were catholic then she would be careful to never worship Mary, but would be worried that her future children might if they grew up with it (and never learned to be cautious like the Protestants).

Advice would really help.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I have yet to meet a single Catholic that worships the Virgin Mary. Most of the people that say that, don’t really know Church teaching on the Blessed Virgin. And what’s wrong with singing Marian hymns? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with honouring the mother of God. I mean after all, don’t we use titles like mr. President? His or her Royal Highness? There are entire anthems written about kings and queens Earthly ones at that, does your friend oppose national anthems about Earthly monarchs? Is singing said anthems, worshiping monarchs?

 

[po18guy]

Worship, like love, is a conscious decision. Have a catechism? If so, show here where Cathoics and Orthodox (and many Lutherans and Anglicans) have a devotion to her, but certainly do not worship her. She may have been taught that Jesus essentially picked a rent-a-womb for His mother. First, that is rather absurd. Secondly, it basically denies the fact that Jesus carefully and perfectly created His own mother and did not just look around for an unmarried girl.

Have her watch this video about Mary in scripture on YouTube.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We don’t “accidentally worship” anyone. Worship is an intentional act. It’s not a case of “oops I sang a hymn about Mary and felt too reverent, I must have accidentally been worshipping her!” That’s just nuts.

I’m sorry your friend is so afraid of Mary, but I’m going to take the slightly discordant position here. There are about 1,000,000 webpages, threads and discussions where Protestants bring up this alleged Mary-worship thing, and Catholics offer all the usual arguments against it. These are not hard to find on the Internet. If somebody really wants to become Catholic or get past their issues with Mary, they can start by reading all this material. We should not have to give the same answers over and over and over. There seem to be several threads per week on here dealing with this exact same question and the answers are always the same.

Mary is a part of the Catholic Church. We don’t worship her (or the saints). This is an established fact regardless of whether someone has been being wrongly told for 20, 40 or 60 years that we do. Furthermore, there are some Protestants who really have a horror of Mary and others who can take her or leave her or even like/ love her. My father was raised Baptist and Methodist and never had a problem accepting Mary and praying the Rosary. My mother had a big devotion to Mary so he just joined right in with that when he converted.

This is something that Protestants who really want to become Catholics need to work on getting over on their own, in my opinion. Just accept that what they were taught was wrong and get over it. We cannot say any more to “convince” them than what has already been said 1000 times and what is out there on the Internet.

 

[Katie777]

If the ground Jesus walked on is called The Holy Land, why do Protestants deny that Mary is Holy? She’s much more Holy then the ground.

Marian hymns acknowledge that She is the Mother of God.We pray through Mary and thank her for perfecting our prayers and presenting them to Her Son.

Many Marian hymns and prayers are scripture based, such as the Angelus and Hail Mary. Does your friend skip over these parts when reading the bible too?

 

[Vico]

I need help explaining something to a friend. I honestly think she’s close to opening up to Catholicism a bit more, but the main thing blocking her consideration is fear of worshiping Mary.

The new thing she keeps harping on is that by singing hymns about Mary we are praising her in the same way we praise God, so it’s too easy to accidentally worship Mary. She also said she thought if she were catholic then she would be careful to never worship Mary, but would be worried that her future children might if they grew up with it (and never learned to be cautious like the Protestants).

Advice would really help.

It is not praise (adoration), but super veneration (hyperdulia):

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Hyperdulia

The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone. But it is higher than the cultus dulia (veneration), due to angels and other saints. As the Church understands the veneration of Mary, it is to be closely associated but subordinated to that of her Son.

“The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly loved and glorified and His commandments are observed” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, VII, 66).

(Etym. Latin hyperdulia, virtue of deep submission.)

 

[Spyridon]

Regina Caeli would be much more effective!

 

[MT1926]

The new thing she keeps harping on is that by singing hymns about Mary we are praising her in the same way we praise God, so it’s too easy to accidentally worship Mary.

I would consider taking this from a different angle, since she specifically spoke of singing hymns. I would point out to her that yes it is possible to worship when we sing but not all singing, even during mass, is worship.

Worship is showing reverence and adoration for a deity. Worship is due to God alone.

Praise is expressing admiration. We can praise anyone without worship them, including God. What I mean by this is, it is also possible to praise God in song and not truly be worshiping Him during that song.

I mean no disrespect to our non-Catholic brethren with this next statement. But to put it bluntly i guess.

As Catholics we don’t need our songs to count as worship during mass. We have something far greater, the Eucharist at Mass. The Mass is the highest form of worship possible to God (sacrifice).

Malachi 1:11

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

We are the Gentiles spoken of here. The Catholic Church fulfills this prophecy by offering the sacrifice of the Mass every hour of every day throughout the whole world.

Basically, what I am getting at is the Protestant Reformers did away with the Mass, they no longer have the greatest form of worship to God. So they have to fall back on prayer and song as their highest form of worship available to them. Since they have no form of worship due to God alone, they have “blurred” the lines between worship and praise to the point of making them mean the same thing.

It doesn’t seem like she needs a Catholic defense on Mary, it seems like she needs to get back to the basics.

God Bless

 

[AmbroseSJ]

As Catholics we don’t need our songs to count as worship during mass. We have something far greater, the Eucharist at Mass. The Mass is the highest form of worship possible to God (sacrifice).

Malachi 1:11

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

We are the Gentiles spoken of here. The Catholic Church fulfills this prophecy by offering the sacrifice of the Mass every hour of every day throughout the whole world.

Basically, what I am getting at is the Protestant Reformers did away with the Mass, they no longer have the greatest form of worship to God. So they have to fall back on prayer and song as their highest form of worship available to them. Since they have no form of worship due to God alone, they have “blurred” the lines between worship and praise to the point of making them mean the same thing.

It doesn’t seem like she needs a Catholic defense on Mary, it seems like she needs to get back to the basics.

God Bless

Couldn’t have said it better.

All this Protestant anxiety over the Virgin Mary is usually due to their broken understanding of what Worship is. It is NOT something we make up like a hymn or prayer. It is commanded by God. Just as the proper Worship of God was instituted by God directly through Moses to the Israelites in the Desert, So too was the New Covenant worship instituted by God (Jesus) at the Last Supper. That is True Worship of God, the worship Jesus spoke of “in Spirit and in Truth.”

Lastly, it is possible even for Catholics to go overboard with their veneration of Mary, but in those cases it usually goes into the realm of superstition rather than Divine Worship. As was said several times above, Worship is not something that happens by accident or unknowingly.

 

[exnihilo]

I’d ask her what worship is. I’d then ask her how one worships or knows they are worshiping. In my experience Protestants who make this claim can’t define worship. The reason is because the Protestant religion doesn’t have true worship, the offering of a sacrifice. They have only a ‘sacrifice of praise’. So their praise songs are their worship.

The problem then is obvious in that not every song of praise is worship. They’d certainly admit that you can sing a song in praise of a beautiful woman and not be worshiping her. So, again I’d question how do they know when their song is worshiping someone.

The bottom line is I’d push back on them and ask them questions. I’d get them to define and clarify. You’ll find they typically have a hard time doing so.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This is spot on.

When you do not have the unbloody sacrifice of the Eucharist, something else has to become “worship”. It is for these Christians prayer and songs.

If she listens to secular music (some Christians do not, so, I’d clarify that first) ask if a song about the love one has for their mother or wife or child means that they are deifying that person. What about patriotic songs, songs about the American Flag?

There are songs about puppies and unicorns and trees and boats and oceans, singing about something or someone does not mean we are worshiping those people or things as a god.

 

[steve-b]

I need help explaining something to a friend. I honestly think she’s close to opening up to Catholicism a bit more, but the main thing blocking her consideration is fear of worshiping Mary.

I would ask her, who made you so phobic about God’s own mother? Who taught you that Catholics worship Mary? Then ask her what do YOU mean by worship?

CampionTheChampion:

The new thing she keeps harping on is that by singing hymns about Mary we are praising her in the same way we praise God, so it’s too easy to accidentally worship Mary. She also said she thought if she were catholic then she would be careful to never worship Mary, but would be worried that her future children might if they grew up with it (and never learned to be cautious like the Protestants).

Ask her,

1. why did God pick Mary of ALL women in history, to be His son’s mother, the one who He would become man, become incarnate through, take flesh from?
2. could we even possibly give more love and honor to Mary than Jesus gives her?
3. to learn the apostolic faith.

The following is for your information. How you use, if you even use it at all, is up to your discretion.

Protestantism isn’t the apostolic faith. It’s just one of many heresies in history, The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers and Paul says very clearly what to do with those in heresy or division, schism etc.

Tit 3:10-11 As for a man who is factious, [ αἱρετικὸν from the Greek NT], after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.

[ αἱρετικὸν ] = heresy / factious / schismatic, [http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm] and note Paul warns if one won’t change after being admonished, is already self condemned.
Please check out the link defining that word.

Also

Romans 16:17-20 , # SEARCH rom 16
Galatians 5:19-21 # SEARCH gal 5

This same word is used in both selections. [διχοστασίαι,] = division, schism, dissension, sedition, standing apart. Forming pointless (groundless) factions and sects. http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm

Note: the consequences
In Paul’s letter to the Church of Rome, it’s Satan who causes division. It’s Satan then who people follow who divide from Our Lord’s Church. And who did Paul say SATAN WOULD BE CRUSHED BY? The Church of Rome.

What happens to those who divide and won’t return to unity after being given the truth?

Paul says, They won’t be inheriting heaven. IOW they won’t be saved. Hell is their trajectory. And Paul isn’t going to warn them again. He’s already warned the Galatrians twice who have divided. And as we see from Paul’s letter to Titus two warnings seems to be enough for Paul. After that, those people are on their own.

 

[Spyridon]

@MT1926 and @AmbroseSJ both pretty much summed everything up completely for you OP.

I would piggyback a bit on what they said and add that in terms of Biblical Worship, Sacrifice was always absolutely integral. No sacrifice, no true worship, at least biblically speaking.

Hymns and psalms and such were precursors and acts of devotion which lead into the sacrificial act of worship. Why do Protestants think the Temple was the center of Biblical worship? Because the Temple had the best “worship band”? Negative, it’s because it was the nucleus of Jewish life where the Priests were located and sacrifice was made.

Your friends anxiety is rooted in a false conception of what constitutes worship. If your friend understood what worship truly was according to Scripture, she would see that even if a heretical group got together and started singing “O Almighty goddess Mary thou Creator of god the father we worship thee!” that even that in and of itself would not constitute an act of worship, Scripturally speaking. It would be a heretical hymn, but not technically worship.

 

[Kei]

Has she never sung a song to her mother, or know someone who has, perhaps as a birthday gift?
Or are poems/songs about a loved one?
Are these worship?

Worship is not an accident, and is due God alone. If we venerate the first lady or the queen or whatever, why not the same for the mother of our Lord, the King of the Universe?

 

[De_Maria]

Advice would really help.

She’ll want answers from the Bible. Maybe this will help. Have you ever told her that it is God’s will that we give Mary praise?

Luke 1: 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God
Notice what that says. God sent His angel to Mary.

unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Again, pay special attention. There are many unspoken assumptions here which we need to understand in order to get the full, spiritual message of this verse (2 Cor 3:6).

ANGEL GABRIEL

1. an angel is a messenger of God. That is what the word, angel, means.
2. this angel, Gabriel, is one of the four angels that stands before the throne of God.

WAS SENT FROM GOD

1. God sent this angel to Mary.
2. Since this angel is a messenger of God’s, God sent Him to deliver a message.
3. Therefore, the angel was not speaking on his own, but was communicating God’s message to Mary.
4. If we skip down to verse 28, we see that this was a message of praise (i.e. blessed art thou).
   5. Therefore God praised Mary through His Angel.

That is great praise indeed! God’s word is far weightier than man’s. The Angel was passing on the Word of God. And the Word of God said that Mary is blessed among women. Scripture attests that the Angel was sent from God to PRAISE Mary.

Follow me, so far?

The Angel was doing what God commanded. Therefore he was doing GOD’S WILL. And we, Catholics, take him as our example. In order to do God’s will, we must also make a big deal about Mary. Because it is God’s will that the Angels praise Mary.

So, you might argue, "we’re not angels."

Keep reading? Who else praises Mary in that chapter?

Still in Luke chapter 1: 41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

Deja vu all over again!

1. The Holy Spirit is God the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
2. Therefore, God inspired Elisabeth to praise Mary.
3. This praise is inscribed in the Word of God for all generations.
4. Since Elisabeth is a member of the human race, then it is safe to conclude that God wills that men praise Mary.
5. And we find, again, that God praised Mary through His Saint.

Whaddaya think? Is that enough?

 

[dann]

Yes Catholics have other spiritual entitys before God.
And they have found reasons why. This is OK.

This is why fundamental Christians. And Protestant is different

and Not inclusive. To include other designated spiritual entity.
And the spirit Mary. Is appearing all over the world.
And for the last 30 years in mrjorgathi.
Which has caused some confusion in the church authority.
Catholics have figured out how to justify praying to spiritual beings.
Before the God of Abraham Isaiah and Jacob

 

[Edward_H]

If your friend has musical talent, could she conceive of writing and singing a song for her own mother, say on her mother’s birthday?

Does the National Anthem trouble her?

 

[MT1926]

Yes Catholics have other spiritual entitys before God.

And they have found reasons why. This is OK.

This is why fundamental Christians. And Protestant is different

and Not inclusive. To include other designated spiritual entity.

And the spirit Mary. Is appearing all over the world.

And for the last 30 years in mrjorgathi.

Which has caused some confusion in the church authority.

Catholics have figured out how to justify praying to spiritual beings.

Before the God of Abraham Isaiah and Jacob

That’s a lot of periods and incomplete sentences.

Not sure where you are going with this?

 

[HeDa]

Most protestants see Mary as “the mother of Jesus”, that is the human Jesus, while Catholic and Orthodox see Mary as “the Mother of God”. That is a totally different focus and therefore it causes problems in how we understand what the other is saying.

Let your friend dig deep into Luke 1 as others have suggested and then read the gospels while focusing on the relationship between Jesus and Mary.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Although rare, there are songs of praise about people in the Protestant Bible, such as the Song of Deborah in Judges 5:2-31, especially 5:24-27, where Jael is praised for killing Sisera.

They are a little more common in Catholic Bibles. Judith is praised in Judith 13:18-20 and 15:9-10. Most of the last chapters of the book of Sirach (chapters 44-50) were expressly written for that purpose, “Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers in their generations.” (Sirach 44:1) There are even words of praise addressed directly to dead Solomon (Sirach 47:14-20) and to Elijah, who was taken up into heaven. (Sirach 48:4-11)

So, addressing words of praise to the Virgin Mary in heaven is really not an issue for Catholics; to Catholics the practice of addressing words of praise to a righteous person who is no longer living in this world is scriptural.