Protestant Guilt?

[meltzerboy]

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum. It seems to be linked to Catholic fear and guilt regarding mortal sin and salvation. There is a similar situation in Judaism despite its lack of emphasis on salvation. Nonetheless, I believe in both Catholicism and Judaism, we are instructed to love G-d and practice His commandments with joy, not with fear, even though I’m aware there are biblical passages concerning fear and trembling, as well as the Days of Awe in Judaism. In fact, the obligation of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah, if they are practiced due to fear, is not regarded as completely fulfilled.

So my question is not so much why there seems to be an excess of fear and guilt in Catholicism and Judaism; but rather, whether there is anything comparable in the various denominations of Protestantism? And whether the concept is at all present in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Quakerism, Mormonism, and so on? If not, why not?

 

[Publisher]

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum. It seems to be linked to Catholic fear and guilt regarding mortal sin and salvation. There is a similar situation in Judaism despite its lack of emphasis on salvation. Nonetheless, I believe in both Catholicism and Judaism, we are instructed to love G-d and practice His commandments with joy, not with fear, even though I’m aware there are biblical passages concerning fear and trembling, as well as the Days of Awe in Judaism. In fact, the obligation of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah, if they are practiced due to fear, is not regarded as completely fulfilled.

So my question is not so much why there seems to be an excess of fear and guilt in Catholicism and Judaism; but rather, whether there is anything comparable in the various denominations of Protestantism? And whether the concept is at all present in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Quakerism, Mormonism, and so on? If not, why not?

For Friends, we trust in God and His work in Christ to not only forgive our sins but through the workings and ministry of the Holy Spirit to “convict” us of sin if and when we do sin to come to Him for forgiveness. We approach God as a child does their father…“he has not given us a spirit of fear…”

The issue of Protestant “guilt” is not because we do not fear God…but because of what Christ does for us…and continues to do for us as we walk in His Way…to continue to cleanse us…a “clean spirit” and relationship with God gives us a “boldness” and “assurance” that we are in Good Hands…we are beloved children who wish to please our Father…“perfect love casts out fear.” “There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

We feel guilt when we sin…but we have assurance that “He is able to keep what we have committed to Him against that day…”…

 

[couponfit]

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum. It seems to be linked to Catholic fear and guilt regarding mortal sin and salvation. There is a similar situation in Judaism despite its lack of emphasis on salvation. Nonetheless, I believe in both Catholicism and Judaism, we are instructed to love G-d and practice His commandments with joy, not with fear, even though I’m aware there are biblical passages concerning fear and trembling, as well as the Days of Awe in Judaism. In fact, the obligation of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah, if they are practiced due to fear, is not regarded as completely fulfilled.

So my question is not so much why there seems to be an excess of fear and guilt in Catholicism and Judaism; but rather, whether there is anything comparable in the various denominations of Protestantism? And whether the concept is at all present in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Quakerism, Mormonism, and so on? If not, why not?

I’ve seen it brought up. I’ve definitely seen it in Baptist and in Pentecostal groups. It seems to be determined by the pastor and is not meant as a doctrine. Usually when fear is invoked it is based on the old testament actions of God and on Revelations as well as discussion of the afterlife.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum. It seems to be linked to Catholic fear and guilt regarding mortal sin and salvation. There is a similar situation in Judaism despite its lack of emphasis on salvation. Nonetheless, I believe in both Catholicism and Judaism, we are instructed to love G-d and practice His commandments with joy, not with fear, even though I’m aware there are biblical passages concerning fear and trembling, as well as the Days of Awe in Judaism. In fact, the obligation of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah, if they are practiced due to fear, is not regarded as completely fulfilled.

So my question is not so much why there seems to be an excess of fear and guilt in Catholicism and Judaism; but rather, whether there is anything comparable in the various denominations of Protestantism? And whether the concept is at all present in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Quakerism, Mormonism, and so on? If not, why not?

Catholic Church is demanding. It is the most strict in terms of demands. Jesus asks us to be like the Father, Perfect.
Remember that Jesus demanded a clean heart and soul saying that evil does no come for doing and not doing things and from thoughts and willing. It is an inside and deep and interior purity.
It is not easy. So, no wonder when comes scrupolosity as an exageration through ignorance. Serial killers are the opposite: 1000 deaths more or less is not a problem for them. That is bad.
The good is the opposite: fine tuning, where you wonder where you are, how do you feel, what do you think, those are fine gauges that measure every bit and piece that comes from inside.
hence, scrupolosity, which is negative.

Till the soul reaches balance between lax behavior in one extreme and scrupolosity on theother, for some people is not easy.

 

[nickybr38]

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum. It seems to be linked to Catholic fear and guilt regarding mortal sin and salvation. There is a similar situation in Judaism despite its lack of emphasis on salvation. Nonetheless, I believe in both Catholicism and Judaism, we are instructed to love G-d and practice His commandments with joy, not with fear, even though I’m aware there are biblical passages concerning fear and trembling, as well as the Days of Awe in Judaism. In fact, the obligation of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah, if they are practiced due to fear, is not regarded as completely fulfilled.

So my question is not so much why there seems to be an excess of fear and guilt in Catholicism and Judaism; but rather, whether there is anything comparable in the various denominations of Protestantism? And whether the concept is at all present in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Quakerism, Mormonism, and so on? If not, why not?

Hmm… honestly I don’t remember ever coming across this when I was Protestant. Everyone seemed pretty content and sure that they were bound for heaven and that they were doing exactly what they needed to do to get there.

You’d think such an attitude would inspire confidence but it only ever made me feel uneasy.

 

[Barbkw]

Your comment:

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum.

This answer:

Catholic Church is demanding. It is the most strict in terms of demands. Jesus asks us to be like the Father, Perfect.

Remember that Jesus demanded a clean heart and soul saying that evil does no come for doing and not doing things and from thoughts and willing. It is an inside and deep and interior purity.

It is not easy. So, no wonder when comes scrupolosity as an exageration through ignorance. Serial killers are the opposite: 1000 deaths more or less is not a problem for them. That is bad.

The good is the opposite: fine tuning, where you wonder where you are, how do you feel, what do you think, those are fine gauges that measure every bit and piece that comes from inside.

Hence, scrupolosity, which is negative.

Till the soul reaches balance between lax behavior in one extreme and scrupolosity on theother, for some people is not easy.

It takes awhile to find balance.

 

[PerryJ]

Interesting idea about Protestant guilt. Protestants faith was based upon Luther’s relationship with his father and guilt. After hours of confession and beating himself he never felt adequate. His confessor told him that God had forgiven him and he was taking his confession to the extreme’s. He did not believe his confessors. This has been explained by his relationship with his father. One really has to read about Luther to understand his tortured life and the results from it.

Often Protestants believe the myth about the 95 these. It was created; however, the section about indulgences has been greatly taken out of context. The Pope at the time did spend too much money and he was selling indulgences to build a Church; however, the indulgences were not granted by God unless the person was truly contrite about the actions. Luther disagreed with the Pope’s indulgences. On the other hand Luther supported his, protecting Monarch Frederick, with selling the reduction of purgatory by indivduals paying to see relics in his collection. For example Frederick claimed to have St Anne’s thumb, mutilated bodies of babies (from the persecution to kill Jesus when he was a baby), twigs from the burnings bush etc. Amazing that people base their religion on a myth. I always struggle why people do not study there faith and its origin. Everyone is quick to blame Catholics for things they may or may not have done. Seldom do they study there own faith.

Protestants whole faith is based upon one man overriding guilt created by his relationship with his father.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hmm… honestly I don’t remember ever coming across this when I was Protestant. Everyone seemed pretty content and sure that they were bound for heaven and that they were doing exactly what they needed to do to get there.

You’d think such an attitude would inspire confidence but it only ever made me feel uneasy.

Do you think the lack of fear and guilt in some Protestant denominations is perhaps based on their interpretation of OSAS teaching, while other Protestants, who interpret OSAS differently, or don’t believe in it at all, may feel more uncertainty, fear, and guilt?

 

[meltzerboy]

Interesting idea about Protestant guilt. Protestants faith was based upon Luther’s relationship with his father and guilt. After hours of confession and beating himself he never felt adequate. His confessor told him that God had forgiven him and he was taking his confession to the extreme’s. He did not believe his confessors. This has been explained by his relationship with his father. One really has to read about Luther to understand his tortured life and the results from it.

Often Protestants believe the myth about the 95 these. It was created; however, the section about indulgences has been greatly taken out of context. The Pope at the time did spend too much money and he was selling indulgences to build a Church; however, the indulgences were not granted by God unless the person was truly contrite about the actions. Luther disagreed with the Pope’s indulgences. On the other hand Luther supported his, protecting Monarch Frederick, with selling the reduction of purgatory by indivduals paying to see relics in his collection. For example Frederick claimed to have St Anne’s thumb, mutilated bodies of babies (from the persecution to kill Jesus when he was a baby), twigs from the burnings bush etc. Amazing that people base their religion on a myth. I always struggle why people do not study there faith and its origin. Everyone is quick to blame Catholics for things they may or may not have done. Seldom do they study there own faith.

Protestants whole faith is based upon one man overriding guilt created by his relationship with his father.

Thank you for the interesting information regarding Luther. However, isn’t there more to the development of Lutheranism and other forms of Protestantism than what you state in your concluding sentence?

 

[meltzerboy]

I’ve seen it brought up. I’ve definitely seen it in Baptist and in Pentecostal groups. It seems to be determined by the pastor and is not meant as a doctrine. Usually when fear is invoked it is based on the old testament actions of God and on Revelations as well as discussion of the afterlife.

Interesting that you’ve found these emotions in Baptist and Pentecostal groups. Probably not so much among Methodists and Episcopalians, if the few I know are any guide. What about Lutherans and Presbyterians?

 

[meltzerboy]

For Friends, we trust in God and His work in Christ to not only forgive our sins but through the workings and ministry of the Holy Spirit to “convict” us of sin if and when we do sin to come to Him for forgiveness. We approach God as a child does their father…“he has not given us a spirit of fear…”

The issue of Protestant “guilt” is not because we do not fear God…but because of what Christ does for us…and continues to do for us as we walk in His Way…to continue to cleanse us…a “clean spirit” and relationship with God gives us a “boldness” and “assurance” that we are in Good Hands…we are beloved children who wish to please our Father…“perfect love casts out fear.” “There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

We feel guilt when we sin…but we have assurance that “He is able to keep what we have committed to Him against that day…”…

This sounds wonderful, Publisher. I’ve always admired the simplicity of the Quaker approach and teachings, ever since I taught in a Friends school and attended the Meetinghouse many years ago.

 

[meltzerboy]

Catholic Church is demanding. It is the most strict in terms of demands. Jesus asks us to be like the Father, Perfect.
Remember that Jesus demanded a clean heart and soul saying that evil does no come for doing and not doing things and from thoughts and willing. It is an inside and deep and interior purity.
It is not easy. So, no wonder when comes scrupolosity as an exageration through ignorance. Serial killers are the opposite: 1000 deaths more or less is not a problem for them. That is bad.
The good is the opposite: fine tuning, where you wonder where you are, how do you feel, what do you think, those are fine gauges that measure every bit and piece that comes from inside.
hence, scrupolosity, which is negative.

Till the soul reaches balance between lax behavior in one extreme and scrupolosity on theother, for some people is not easy.

I’ve gathered by participating on this Forum that Catholicism is quite demanding. It reminds me of Orthodox Judaism in this respect. Thanks for your valuable (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[PerryJ]

Thank you for the interesting information regarding Luther. However, isn’t there more to the development of Lutheranism and other forms of Protestantism than what you state in your concluding sentence?

That is interresting and problematic. If a religion is based upon a thought that is error then how does one come to a correct conclusion. Even if there are several iterations is it not the base premise the core of the thought?

Let us assume that the core concept is not the determining factor. Then one has to assume that God continues to create further development of the religion. If true how do you judge who is correct in this furthering of the thought and who is not. How does one judge if predestinantion or double predestination are correct or incorrect? Who is correct Luther or Calvin? Just as the Pharisees and the Saducees had different Bibles and interpretations of the Bibles Protestants have this same struggle. Who is right and who is wrong? They have no authority to judge. One could claim God instructs via faith etc; however, how can that be with clealry conflicting thoughts and faiths. (I have always been curious why Protestant believe Christ came to Earth when two Bibles and two Jewish Faiths existed to leave the Earth just like it was. To leave us with multiple Bibles and multiple faiths.)

I am also curious about the concept of Luther’s thoughts concerning the Bible They have been proved to be an error. He based his concept of purgatory etc on excluding books of the Bible. He did this because he was losing a debate to Eck in Leipzig. He referred back to St Jerome’s thoughts to refute the books. Of course the Dead Sea Scrolls have proved that Luther and St Jerome were wrong about the Bible. This leads to the books 's being added back and this grealty fractures his thought process about faith. Note I understand that he took the books in and out of the Bible. The basic concept is he did not believe in them and stated so.

 

[meltzerboy]

Your comment:

This answer:

It takes awhile to find balance.

Thanks for confirming this, and I agree.

 

[Barbkw]

This sounds wonderful, Publisher. I’ve always admired the simplicity of the Quaker approach and teachings, ever since I taught in a Friends school and attended the Meetinghouse many years ago.

It does sound wonderful. However Quakers are allowed to take either a liberal approach or a conservative approach or a pick and choose approach to the Commandments.

 

[Publisher]

It does sound wonderful. However Quakers are allowed to take either a liberal approach or a conservative approach or a pick and choose approach to the Commandments.

Not quite an accurate understanding of Quaker belief…but definitely a Catholic understanding of what Friends believe.

Perhaps friend Meltzerboy can shed light on such a statement…him having served in a Friend’s school.

 

[Barbkw]

Not quite an accurate understanding of Quaker belief…but definitely a Catholic understanding of what Friends believe.

Perhaps friend Meltzerboy can shed light on such a statement…him having served in a Friend’s school.

Quaker,

Unless your opinion has since changed from a previous conversation we’ve had, where you explained that Friends are “at will” to determine the sin or lack of sin in homosexual acts.

 

[po18guy]

Since protestantism has rejected five of the seven Sacraments, they confess their sins, if they confess at all, directly to God. However, when Jesus forgave sins, He told the sinner that their sins were forgiven (Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20, Luke 7:48). The Sacrament of reconciliation is faithful to this. We need assurance that our sins - the only thing that can separate us from God - are gone. Catholics hear these words of absolution from the Priest at the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

What we observe since the protestant revolt is that pseudo-confession has appeared in various sects: the “sinner’s prayer” and “altar calls”. Both are motivated by guilt - guilt for which no authoritative words of absolution are heard. In this area, protestantism is found lacking and can never be complete. Many converts from protestantism mention a guilt motivation for those acts, and a sense of lack of closure.

Other sects simply live in denial, choosing to believe that Jesus’ Blood has atoned for whatever they have done, and will do. Yet, in a state of denial, there is no repentance. This itself runs counter to the entirety of scripture, but many “bible” sects frankly do not use the entire bible. In agreement with Luther (even though they are not Lutherans), they tend to suppress, or simply ignore the Letter of James, which commands us to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16). As well, they ignore Paul’s writing that he had a ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18), as well as his forgiving sin “in the person of Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:10). Catholic Priests do exactly this.

Protestant bibles (the NIV and NASB in particular) have modified this language of Paul’s to read “I forgave in the presence of Christ”, which substantially alters the meaning of Paul’s scripture. Catholic bibles and the King James Version of the Anglican bible are true translations.

As to Islam, Allah is Master and believers are slaves. There is no love involved. As to their atonement, perhaps a Muslim (or former Muslim) member can enter into the conversation.

 

[SteveGC]

Do you think the lack of fear and guilt in some Protestant denominations is perhaps based on their interpretation of OSAS teaching, while other Protestants, who interpret OSAS differently, or don’t believe in it at all, may feel more uncertainty, fear, and guilt?

It is rare to find rational Christians who actually believe that once they invite Christ into their lives, they are heaven bound regardless of their subsequent behavior throughout the remainder of their lives.

Rather, as Publisher stated above, the primary belief is that there is assurance of salvation inasmuch as there is assurance that God will convict the believer in their sins, bringing them to an awareness of their offense toward God, and the need to repent and reconcile with Him. They would concede that a rejection of that conviction jeopardizes their salvation that they initially “received” at their first profession. Hence, the guilt that exists is within the context of this gift of awareness of offense and the need to amend.

This is actually quite Catholic in it’s principles. The differences, of course, lie in the understanding of how salvation is defined, what constitutes sin, the variances in degree of offense to God from sin, and the manner in which we reconcile ourselves to Him. But this sort of Christian guilt is spiritually healthy. The stereotypical, mainstream, idea of “Catholic guilt” is a negative connotation born from poor catechesis.

 

[AbideWithMe]

For Friends, we trust in God and His work in Christ to not only forgive our sins but through the workings and ministry of the Holy Spirit to “convict” us of sin if and when we do sin to come to Him for forgiveness. We approach God as a child does their father…“he has not given us a spirit of fear…”

The issue of Protestant “guilt” is not because we do not fear God…but because of what Christ does for us…and continues to do for us as we walk in His Way…to continue to cleanse us…a “clean spirit” and relationship with God gives us a “boldness” and “assurance” that we are in Good Hands…we are beloved children who wish to please our Father…“perfect love casts out fear.” “There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

We feel guilt when we sin…but we have assurance that “He is able to keep what we have committed to Him against that day…”…

I’d have to echo this.

I don’t see this as coming from OSAS, which is not something I believe…with the qualification that I do believe what Paul said, quoted above by Publisher–“He is able to keep what we have committed to Him against that day…” I’ve never had any fear of death—though I love life (almost always, anyway) —but I have wondered if I’d been raised Catholic if I might fear death. (That’s not a swipe at Catholicism—it’s just something I’ve wondered about in regards to myself as I’ve noticed the struggle with scrupulosity here.)