Protestant Guilt?

[meltzerboy]

Since protestantism has rejected five of the seven Sacraments, they confess their sins, if they confess at all, directly to God. However, when Jesus forgave sins, He told the sinner that their sins were forgiven (Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20, Luke 7:48). The Sacrament of reconciliation is faithful to this. We need assurance that our sins - the only thing that can separate us from God - are gone. Catholics hear these words of absolution from the Priest at the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

What we observe since the protestant revolt is that pseudo-confession has appeared in various sects: the “sinner’s prayer” and “altar calls”. Both are motivated by guilt - guilt for which no authoritative words of absolution are heard. In this area, protestantism is found lacking and can never be complete. Many converts from protestantism mention a guilt motivation for those acts, and a sense of lack of closure.

Other sects simply live in denial, choosing to believe that Jesus’ Blood has atoned for whatever they have done, and will do. Yet, in a state of denial, there is no repentance. This itself runs counter to the entirety of scripture, but many “bible” sects frankly do not use the entire bible. In agreement with Luther (even though they are not Lutherans), they tend to suppress, or simply ignore the Letter of James, which commands us to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16). As well, they ignore Paul’s writing that he had a ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18), as well as his forgiving sin “in the person of Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:10). Catholic Priests do exactly this.

Protestant bibles (the NIV and NASB in particular) have modified this language of Paul’s to read “I forgave in the presence of Christ”, which substantially alters the meaning of Paul’s scripture. Catholic bibles and the King James Version of the Anglican bible are true translations.

As to Islam, Allah is Master and believers are slaves. There is no love involved. As to their atonement, perhaps a Muslim (or former Muslim) member can enter into the conversation.

You had me interested until your last paragraph, po18guy! As Peggy Lee sang, “Is that all there is (to Islam)?” Thanks for your most interesting comments regarding the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’d have to echo this.

I don’t see this as coming from OSAS, which is not something I believe…with the qualification that I do believe what Paul said, quoted above by Publisher–“He is able to keep what we have committed to Him against that day…” I’ve never had any fear of death—though I love life (almost always, anyway) —but I have wondered if I’d been raised Catholic if I might fear death. (That’s not a swipe at Catholicism—it’s just something I’ve wondered about in regards to myself as I’ve noticed the struggle with scrupulosity here.)

I agree that our religious foundation forms many of our thoughts, so you would most likely have a different attitude about life and death if you were raised Catholic. And that, after all, is the main point of my thread. Thanks for your comments.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It is rare to find rational Christians who actually believe that once they invite Christ into their lives, they are heaven bound regardless of their subsequent behavior throughout the remainder of their lives.

Rather, as Publisher stated above, the primary belief is that there is assurance of salvation inasmuch as there is assurance that God will convict the believer in their sins, bringing them to an awareness of their offense toward God, and the need to repent and reconcile with Him. They would concede that a rejection of that conviction jeopardizes their salvation that they initially “received” at their first profession. Hence, the guilt that exists is within the context of this gift of awareness of offense and the need to amend.

This is actually quite Catholic in it’s principles. The differences, of course, lie in the understanding of how salvation is defined, what constitutes sin, the variances in degree of offense to God from sin, and the manner in which we reconcile ourselves to Him. But this sort of Christian guilt is spiritually healthy. The stereotypical, mainstream, idea of “Catholic guilt” is a negative connotation born from poor catechesis.

That’s well said, Steve.

For close to three years I’ve been part of another forum, mostly Catholic, geared to the support of contemplative spirituality, and only one member had any struggle with scrupulosity. I’ve been surprised at the frequency with which people seem to be dealing with scrupulosity here. I’ve been genuinely curious as to the source of that struggle, since due to my experience with other Catholics I didn’t think the problem was inherent to Catholicism.

 

[meltzerboy]

Not quite an accurate understanding of Quaker belief…but definitely a Catholic understanding of what Friends believe.

Perhaps friend Meltzerboy can shed light on such a statement…him having served in a Friend’s school.

I actually thought that what Barb said may be true since there are both liberal and conservative Friends. I recall a Friend telling me at the school that Quakers are divided about several issues since there is no official dogma. This sounds to me similar to the divisions within Judaism, which are fine with me, since there are also a small core of main principles.

 

[Barbkw]

As a prodigal daughter of the Church (who never knew what scrupulousity was - nor did I care about the gradations of sin for 25 years) I have a very different view of people here who struggle to find balance between the society they live in and God.

It amazes me actually that so many people are aggravated and annoyed by these people who struggle with scrupulousity.

With a touch of guidance, these people are far closer to the saints than I’ll ever believe myself to be.

 

[meltzerboy]

It is rare to find rational Christians who actually believe that once they invite Christ into their lives, they are heaven bound regardless of their subsequent behavior throughout the remainder of their lives.

Rather, as Publisher stated above, the primary belief is that there is assurance of salvation inasmuch as there is assurance that God will convict the believer in their sins, bringing them to an awareness of their offense toward God, and the need to repent and reconcile with Him. They would concede that a rejection of that conviction jeopardizes their salvation that they initially “received” at their first profession. Hence, the guilt that exists is within the context of this gift of awareness of offense and the need to amend.

This is actually quite Catholic in it’s principles. The differences, of course, lie in the understanding of how salvation is defined, what constitutes sin, the variances in degree of offense to God from sin, and the manner in which we reconcile ourselves to Him. But this sort of Christian guilt is spiritually healthy. The stereotypical, mainstream, idea of “Catholic guilt” is a negative connotation born from poor catechesis.

Thanks for this great explanation of both Quakerism and Catholicism!

 

[meltzerboy]

As a prodigal daughter of the Church (who never knew what scrupulousity was - nor did I care about the gradations of sin for 25 years) I have a very different view of people here who struggle to find balance between the society they live in and God.

It amazes me actually that so many people are aggravated and annoyed by these people who struggle with scrupulousity.

With a touch of guidance, these people are far closer to the saints than I’ll ever believe myself to be.

For the record, I’m not one of those who are annoyed. It’s not even my place to express an opinion on scrupulosity one way or the other. It was just an observation on my part. However, I find your perspective interesting: that is, scrupulosity may be an effort toward perfection which, with a little tweaking, may serve a worthy purpose. Thanks for your comments.

 

[ltwin]

I’d have to agree with the comments by Publisher and AbideWithMe. I feel guilty when I’m sorry for being caught, and with God that is always the case. Guilt doesn’t move me toward repentance or holiness. It just makes me ashamed, and to compensate, I entrench myself in my own hypocrisy.

It is Godly sorrow for having offended God and a longing for reconciliation that moves me toward repentance. I go to the rock that is higher than I and cling to the Cross. I turn away from sin and set my mind to not look back. I know that if I confess my sins He is faithful to forgive, so I do not look back or worry. I have peace.

Someone earlier said that Protestants do not “confess their sins one to another.” I would take issue with that. I’ve been in services where people were overcome with conviction and would confess sins publicly.

 

[nickybr38]

Do you think the lack of fear and guilt in some Protestant denominations is perhaps based on their interpretation of OSAS teaching, while other Protestants, who interpret OSAS differently, or don’t believe in it at all, may feel more uncertainty, fear, and guilt?

Honestly I’m not sure. I ran with both the OSAS crowd and the anti-OSAS crowd and both had equal levels of confidence.

To be fair I was never friends with any of these people, I just attended their bible studies and went to their churches so some of it may have been a veneer for my benefit. Perhaps they had guilt or doubts and just never shared it with me because I wasn’t close enough to them for them to share.

 

[Eileen_T]

I’d have to echo this.

I don’t see this as coming from OSAS, which is not something I believe…with the qualification that I do believe what Paul said, quoted above by Publisher–“He is able to keep what we have committed to Him against that day…” I’ve never had any fear of death—though I love life (almost always, anyway) —but I have wondered if I’d been raised Catholic if I might fear death. (That’s not a swipe at Catholicism—it’s just something I’ve wondered about in regards to myself as I’ve noticed the struggle with scrupulosity here.)

I can’t talk for other Catholics but my father had his funeral readings planned several years before his death, as my mother also does. Before my MIL died several years ago, with less than two weeks from the terminal diagnosis, she immediately got in touch with friends and relatives to say goodbye and carried on her daily activities as long as she was able.

At Mass this past Sunday, I read a prayer which said this: "…however miserable I may be, no one nobler or cleverer or even holier can come between You and me, and deprive me of Your friendship; and death, which tears us away from all other friends, will unite me for ever to You…" (Bl. Claude de la Colombiere)

I thought: “How true!”

 

[Publisher]

I actually thought that what Barb said may be true since there are both liberal and conservative Friends. I recall a Friend telling me at the school that Quakers are divided about several issues since there is no official dogma. This sounds to me similar to the divisions within Judaism, which are fine with me, since there are also a small core of main principles.

Most Meetings have conflict on social issues…we DO have both “liberal” and “conservative”…but we DO learn to work togther. We never vote on issues…we discuss and discuss and discuss and pray…and pray…and discuss and pray for years and finanlly a “consense” is met…the Clerk finally states “the sense of the meeting” and if all so declare a joint plan of action.

All voices are given ear…majority isn’t necessarily the “correct party”…listen to the voice of the minority among you…seek “that of God” in one another…that is how Friends reach difficult decisions and how both kind of Friends work together…we are Friends…“that of God” resides in each of us…we must listen to each voice and determine the mind and will of God in our lives…and weight our decisions in the Meeting with one another…

 

[EnglishTeacher]

What we observe since the protestant revolt is that pseudo-confession has appeared in various sects: the “sinner’s prayer” and “altar calls”. Both are motivated by guilt - guilt for which no authoritative words of absolution are heard. In this area, protestantism is found lacking and can never be complete. Many converts from protestantism mention a guilt motivation for those acts, and a sense of lack of closure.

This is an excellent observation and very true.

As a former Evangelical Protestant, I would add that (in my opinion) there is a major “Emperor’s New Clothes” effect that goes on in many protestant circles. Very few people will admit to feeling a lack of assurance of salvation, or a lack of closure over past sins. As an evangelical protestant, you don’t want to admit to a lack of assurance or closure, because that is seen as evidence that you are not really “saved” or that you are not spiritual enough. So when “getting saved” again or repeatedly responding to altar calls doesn’t solve that nagging feeling that something is missing, you just suppress those feelings so as to conform to the expected Christian image (happy, joyful, 100% assured of salvation) that everyone else around you portrays.

I’m not saying that every evangelical protestant feels the way I’ve described, but I strongly suspect that there are far more than will admit it, epecially those with more introspective personalities.

 

[mark_a]

So when “getting saved” again or repeatedly responding to altar calls

or being repeatedly baptized

doesn’t solve that nagging feeling that something is missing, . . . . .

 

[po18guy]

It is Godly sorrow for having offended God and a longing for reconciliation that moves me toward repentance. I go to the rock that is higher than I and cling to the Cross. I turn away from sin and set my mind to not look back. I know that if I confess my sins He is faithful to forgive, so I do not look back or worry. I have peace.

Someone earlier said that Protestants do not “confess their sins one to another.” I would take issue with that. I’ve been in services where people were overcome with conviction and would confess sins publicly.

Very little to disagree with, except that Paul had a ministry of reconciliation, and forgave sins in the person of Christ. Rhetorical question: From Whom did he get that authority, and why?

Another: Jesus specifically told sinners that their sins were forgiven, even though that forgiveness had already taken place. Why would he do that?

Assurance of salvation is one thing. Assurance of forgiveness is quite another. Only one is biblical.

 

[AbideWithMe]

This is an excellent observation and very true.

As a former Evangelical Protestant, I would add that (in my opinion) there is a major “Emperor’s New Clothes” effect that goes on in many protestant circles. Very few people will admit to feeling a lack of assurance of salvation, or a lack of closure over past sins. As an evangelical protestant, you don’t want to admit to a lack of assurance or closure, because that is seen as evidence that you are not really “saved” or that you are not spiritual enough. So when “getting saved” again or repeatedly responding to altar calls doesn’t solve that nagging feeling that something is missing, you just suppress those feelings so as to conform to the expected Christian image (happy, joyful, 100% assured of salvation) that everyone else around you portrays.

I’m not saying that every evangelical protestant feels the way I’ve described, but I strongly suspect that there are far more than will admit it, epecially those with more introspective personalities.

English Teacher—

There certainly can be a fear of being known as one truly is—a fear of letting people know our weaknesses and failures. It can be tempting to try to control how people perceive us. I don’t see that as a distinctly Protestant problem, but rather as simply part of the human condition.

I have friends who have experienced what I think you’re describing, and it certainly is a problem. If we can’t be real in church—the place where above all places on this earth we should feel safe—then where can we be really and truly known?

I’ve been fortunate to always be a part of churches that consistently encourage being genuine and letting trusted friends know of our brokeness. That’s been a major theme in corporate Christian life as I’ve known it. For the record, I’m introspective, too, as I take it you are. And I’m introverted. Developing the courage to be genuine in the midst of people, and to be fully present, is something I learned partly in church.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I can’t talk for other Catholics but my father had his funeral readings planned several years before his death, as my mother also does. Before my MIL died several years ago, with less than two weeks from the terminal diagnosis, she immediately got in touch with friends and relatives to say goodbye and carried on her daily activities as long as she was able.

At Mass this past Sunday, I read a prayer which said this: "…however miserable I may be, no one nobler or cleverer or even holier can come between You and me, and deprive me of Your friendship; and death, which tears us away from all other friends, will unite me for ever to You…" (Bl. Claude de la Colombiere)

I thought: “How true!”

What a beautiful prayer, Eileen.

 

[LilyM]

I had an English teacher in High School who was raised Pentecostal, and certainly felt an amount of residual guilt when she wore makeup and things like that.

 

[CB_Catholic]

My father grew up in a home where there was plenty of Protestant guilt. The denomination my grandparents belonged to used to forbid just about anything that was considered worldly–smoking, drinking, wearing makeup, going to the movies, playing cards, etc. Everything was a sin, and bigotry was rampant. Thankfully, the thinking of that particular denomination has lightened up, but the Catholics couldn’t hold a candle to them when it came to guilt.

The effect of this type of religiosity wasn’t to produce outstanding Christians. It instead produced alcoholics and rebellion.

Scrupulosity isn’t the only or even the worst problem that can be caused by guilt, and believe me, Catholics have no monopoly on it. Even when one is supposedly “saved” in the Protestant churches that profess this, many people still carry around a load of guilt, but they are ashamed to admit it. Peer pressure can be strong. Who wants to go to church and admit in front of their friends that they don’t feel saved? Or that they have backslidden? Or they might not have been saved in the first place? I hung around churches like that for a few years and could see what was going on, and even had people talk to me about this. There was a load of guilt still there.

One thing about the Catholics–we freely admit we are sinners, we freely admit we will never be perfect and are more than likely to sin again, and we know the person in the pew next to us is a sinner too. We don’t have to pretend (but some of us still do). And we have Confession–a powerful sacrament when it comes to healing one’s soul.

I don’t think there is more guilt among Catholics than among Protestants. I think there is about the same, but not everyone is going to admit to it.

 

[meltzerboy]

My father grew up in a home where there was plenty of Protestant guilt. The denomination my grandparents belonged to used to forbid just about anything that was considered worldly–smoking, drinking, wearing makeup, going to the movies, playing cards, etc. Everything was a sin, and bigotry was rampant. Thankfully, the thinking of that particular denomination has lightened up, but the Catholics couldn’t hold a candle to them when it came to guilt.

The effect of this type of religiosity wasn’t to produce outstanding Christians. It instead produced alcoholics and rebellion.

Scrupulosity isn’t the only or even the worst problem that can be caused by guilt, and believe me, Catholics have no monopoly on it. Even when one is supposedly “saved” in the Protestant churches that profess this, many people still carry around a load of guilt, but they are ashamed to admit it. Peer pressure can be strong. Who wants to go to church and admit in front of their friends that they don’t feel saved? Or that they have backslidden? Or they might not have been saved in the first place? I hung around churches like that for a few years and could see what was going on, and even had people talk to me about this. There was a load of guilt still there.

One thing about the Catholics–we freely admit we are sinners, we freely admit we will never be perfect and are more than likely to sin again, and we know the person in the pew next to us is a sinner too. We don’t have to pretend (but some of us still do). And we have Confession–a powerful sacrament when it comes to healing one’s soul.

I don’t think there is more guilt among Catholics than among Protestants. I think there is about the same, but not everyone is going to admit to it.

The Protestants you talk about sound awfully guilt-ridden. It’s nice to know we can share the guilt with others! Seriously though, it can be quite a destructive force. Thanks so much for your comments.

 

[AbideWithMe]

My father grew up in a home where there was plenty of Protestant guilt. The denomination my grandparents belonged to used to forbid just about anything that was considered worldly–smoking, drinking, wearing makeup, going to the movies, playing cards, etc. Everything was a sin, and bigotry was rampant. Thankfully, the thinking of that particular denomination has lightened up, but the Catholics couldn’t hold a candle to them when it came to guilt.

The effect of this type of religiosity wasn’t to produce outstanding Christians. It instead produced alcoholics and rebellion.

Scrupulosity isn’t the only or even the worst problem that can be caused by guilt, and believe me, Catholics have no monopoly on it. Even when one is supposedly “saved” in the Protestant churches that profess this, many people still carry around a load of guilt, but they are ashamed to admit it. Peer pressure can be strong. Who wants to go to church and admit in front of their friends that they don’t feel saved? Or that they have backslidden? Or they might not have been saved in the first place? I hung around churches like that for a few years and could see what was going on, and even had people talk to me about this. There was a load of guilt still there.

One thing about the Catholics–we freely admit we are sinners, we freely admit we will never be perfect and are more than likely to sin again, and we know the person in the pew next to us is a sinner too. We don’t have to pretend (but some of us still do). And we have Confession–a powerful sacrament when it comes to healing one’s soul.

I don’t think there is more guilt among Catholics than among Protestants. I think there is about the same, but not everyone is going to admit to it.

I think that’s all true. Destructive guilt among Protestants may take a different form, but I doubt that overall there’s a lesser amount among Protestants than among Catholics.

Carolyn, you wrote “We don’t have to pretend (but some of us still do).” I think the same thing happens among Protestants. We don’t have to pretend, and we talk often about Jesus saying He came not for the healthy but the sick, and we tell the story of the man who simply said “Have mercy on me, a sinner.” And we say, “God knows us fully but loves us anyway.” But for me, it’s still a daily decision to make it more than just talk; to take all that to heart and have the courage to really live like I believe God loves us intimately. At that point peer pressure loses all its power.