Protestant Guilt?

[po18guy]

One thing about the Catholics–we freely admit we are sinners, we freely admit we will never be perfect and are more than likely to sin again, and we know the person in the pew next to us is a sinner too. We don’t have to pretend (but some of us still do). And we have Confession–a powerful sacrament when it comes to healing one’s soul.

There have been occasions when I left the confessional barely feelng my feet touch the floor.

Not to derail, but some years back, I was at a Catholic Charismatic event that offered reconciliation during the lunch break. It shocked me that I found myself almost arguing with the Priest! It hit me that I was disagreeing not so much with him, as I was with the Lord! I came to my senses. When he pronounced absolution, I began violently shaking in the chair. To keep me from falling, the Priest took hold of me, while looking skyward and saying “O Holy Spirit!” I wept. As I walked back to the meeting, tears were streaming down my cheeks. I shall remember that absolution for the rest of my life.

 

[po18guy]

The Protestants you talk about sound awfully guilt-ridden. It’s nice to know we can share the guilt with others! Seriously though, it can be quite a destructive force. Thanks so much for your comments.

It can be turned into a motivating force to be reconciled with our Lord. The Mosaic covenant was established with a system of sacrifices in atonement for sin. When you took your sacrifice to the Priest, and he offered it up, there was no doubt that your sin had been atoned for. The Catholic Sacrament of reconciliation also leaves absolutely no doubt that your sin is gone. The Christian covenant reflects the Mosaic covenant in this regard.

The modern Christian development of simply asking for forgiveness in prayer may be fine, but the believer receives no assurance of forgiveness - other than assuming that it has been done.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I’ve gathered by participating on this Forum that Catholicism is quite demanding. It reminds me of Orthodox Judaism in this respect. Thanks for your valuable (name removed by moderator)ut.

I love Judaism, since I visited Israel many years ago in the Yom Kippur and danced with everybody, and at my side was…the Minister or Culture of Israel. I loved it…

Our great loved ones, Jesus Christ, Mary, Joseph were all Jews.

Thanks for the comparison with the Orthodox Jews: I did not know Catholicism would be that hard!!!

 

[CatholicRoots]

I think there is big emphasis on Love of Gods rules in Catholicism but
accompanied with fear, since we need both equally. With just love we feel like we can’t be condemnd, with just fear we feel like we can’t be saved. You need the fear of God with love in your heart .

The reason I believe that there is a bigger emphasis, (I’ve found) is Catholicism focuses very much on the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and the rest of the passion. Look at some of the saints, they focus very much on the cross and the sacrifice. So there is a big theology of the expiation but in protestantism I think they tend to focus more on the resurrection. See we see the sorrow in Christ as well as the glory. Many protestants primarily focus on the glory. I’ve known a few that actually don’t regard the cross and they use the cliche “because ours is a living God” I didn’t get why they were opposed to the thing that is the crux of Christianity.

That’s why we maybe seem to have a lot bigger notion of guilt/sin were as Protestants may not as much.

But also you see why we have fear, looking at how God suffered for our sins but also love since we see why he suffered; for us.

 

[Contarini]

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum. It seems to be linked to Catholic fear and guilt regarding mortal sin and salvation. There is a similar situation in Judaism despite its lack of emphasis on salvation. Nonetheless, I believe in both Catholicism and Judaism, we are instructed to love G-d and practice His commandments with joy, not with fear, even though I’m aware there are biblical passages concerning fear and trembling, as well as the Days of Awe in Judaism. In fact, the obligation of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah, if they are practiced due to fear, is not regarded as completely fulfilled.

So my question is not so much why there seems to be an excess of fear and guilt in Catholicism and Judaism; but rather, whether there is anything comparable in the various denominations of Protestantism? And whether the concept is at all present in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Quakerism, Mormonism, and so on? If not, why not?

In my experience, there is a great deal of fear and guilt in conservative Protestantism. The doctrines of assurance and sola fide (and eternal security for those who believe in that particular theological monstrosity) are supposed to deal with the problem. And for some they do. But in my opinion and experience their effectiveness diminishes to the extent that conservative Protestants think deeply about their faith and take it seriously. Everyone agrees that it’s possible to think yourself a “true Christian” when you aren’t. Many Protestants believe that you can fall from grace and “lose your salvation.” So there’s plenty of ground for worry.

Read Bunyan’s Grace Abounding (or any of his writings, or the writings of any of the Puritans).

My own version of the Holiness tradition took everything that could induce neurotic introspection from the Reformed and Catholic traditions, essentially. When Catholics talk about Catholic guilt I laugh and tell them that it has nothing on Holiness guilt.

Edwin

 

[CB_Catholic]

In my experience, there is a great deal of fear and guilt in conservative Protestantism. The doctrines of assurance and sola fide (and eternal security for those who believe in that particular theological monstrosity) are supposed to deal with the problem. And for some they do. But in my opinion and experience their effectiveness diminishes to the extent that conservative Protestants think deeply about their faith and take it seriously. Everyone agrees that it’s possible to think yourself a “true Christian” when you aren’t. Many Protestants believe that you can fall from grace and “lose your salvation.” So there’s plenty of ground for worry.

Read Bunyan’s Grace Abounding (or any of his writings, or the writings of any of the Puritans).

My own version of the Holiness tradition took everything that could induce neurotic introspection from the Reformed and Catholic traditions, essentially. When Catholics talk about Catholic guilt I laugh and tell them that it has nothing on Holiness guilt.

Edwin

Yes, the denomination that I talked about in a previous post when I talked about my my father’s family and Protestant guilt was one of the Holiness denominations. I won’t name them, but they have sure lightened up from when I was a kid.

 

[ltwin]

One thing about the Catholics–we freely admit we are sinners, we freely admit we will never be perfect and are more than likely to sin again, and we know the person in the pew next to us is a sinner too. We don’t have to pretend (but some of us still do).

This is true of Protestants as well. We are all sinners. All have fallen short of the glory of God. We may pretend that we are not sinners, but we are not fooling anyone, not God and not those around us.

 

[vera_dicere]

Given that a lot of the Catholics I know in real life are of teh “God is merciful and loves everyone and He wouldn’t really send anyone to Hell and even though that lady had twenty abortions she’s still a good person” vein… I don’t really see the guilt in them.

However, teh biggest guilt mongers I’ve seen in real life have been from Protestant denominations. I knew one girl who ended up in a wheelchair and was of the mind that it was God punishing her for something she had done and at teh insistance of her pastor basically opened her life up for public scrunity to try and find the offence.

That’s the extreme end of the stories I’ve heard. But it seems in my own life the protestants I know feel a lot more guilt than the Catholics, of course, as mentioned, the Catholics I know might are just your pick and choose regular cafeteria sorts.

As for what I see online, I think a lot of the worst of what we see here for example, stems from OCD. I feel my own guilt heavily enough for my own sins, but I accept confession and sincerely ask for forgiveness; thus, guilt gone.

 

[Bezant]

I’ve noticed the topic of scrupulosity comes up a lot on this Forum. It seems to be linked to Catholic fear and guilt regarding mortal sin and salvation. There is a similar situation in Judaism despite its lack of emphasis on salvation. Nonetheless, I believe in both Catholicism and Judaism, we are instructed to love G-d and practice His commandments with joy, not with fear, even though I’m aware there are biblical passages concerning fear and trembling, as well as the Days of Awe in Judaism. In fact, the obligation of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah, if they are practiced due to fear, is not regarded as completely fulfilled.
So my question is not so much why there seems to be an excess of fear and guilt in Catholicism and Judaism; but rather, whether there is anything comparable in the various denominations of Protestantism? And whether the concept is at all present in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Quakerism, Mormonism, and so on? If not, why not?

I’ve seen both paranoia and on the other end of the spectrum, a lack of fear (alert! prosperity theology) from some Protestant groups, although I feel it’s a phenomenon much less pronounced or extreme in Catholicism–at least today.

I believe the newer a community is, and the more it tries to distance itself from and denounce other communities, the more likely it is to emphasize obedience or fire-and-brimstone as a way to justify itself.

 

[nickybr38]

Given that a lot of the Catholics I know in real life are of teh “God is merciful and loves everyone and He wouldn’t really send anyone to Hell and even though that lady had twenty abortions she’s still a good person” vein… I don’t really see the guilt in them.

However, teh biggest guilt mongers I’ve seen in real life have been from Protestant denominations. I knew one girl who ended up in a wheelchair and was of the mind that it was God punishing her for something she had done and at teh insistance of her pastor basically opened her life up for public scrunity to try and find the offence.

That’s the extreme end of the stories I’ve heard. But it seems in my own life the protestants I know feel a lot more guilt than the Catholics, of course, as mentioned, the Catholics I know might are just your pick and choose regular cafeteria sorts.

As for what I see online, I think a lot of the worst of what we see here for example, stems from OCD. I feel my own guilt heavily enough for my own sins, but I accept confession and sincerely ask for forgiveness; thus, guilt gone.

I always understood Catholic guilt to be that thing that drives you to do good at all times, even when you don’t want to.

For example. My cousin was giving people at her workplace drives home. When they asked her why she said that if she didn’t give them a ride and they were to freeze on the way home or get hit by a car or something of that nature, all because she didn’t take a few moments to give them a ride, she would never forgive herself. And THEY responded that she was a closet Catholic.

So, it seems from the outside that Catholic guilt is basically just a well formed conscience.

 

[fred_conty]

Once upon a time, someone wrote that scrupulosity was more phsychological than moral.
That an imbalance took place in their judgment similar to any other fear.

I think it is easier to be a Catholic in this situation since a confessor is available to help them deal with it on a regular basis. They also have more precise answers to their questions that bother them. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but protestants seem to emphasize the glory more than do Catholics. Catholics understand that now is the suffering or picking up the cross, but eternity exists for enjoying the glory and reward of that cross.

Just a few ideas.

 

[Roy5]

Protestantism is so diversified that this question is hard to answer.

Among evangelical Protestants, there can be ‘guilt’. This, however, is mitigated by simple faith. Luther became disillusioned with what he called the Catholic emphasis on works. The system of indulgences was especially offensive. At that time, of course. St. Peter’s in Rome was being built, and Tetzel was traveling around, promising that deceased relatives could get out of purgatory faster if their kinfolk gave generously, etc. But Luther came to believe the major focus on works - pray this and get that, say so many rosarys and obtain this, confess your sins and become absolved, etc.- this mechanical way of winnin salvation was wrong.

One day, as most readers know, his eureka moment came when he focused on that verse in Romans where Paul states clearly that we are justified by simple faith in Christ, that sacraments play a positive role in that may lead us to faith but that they by themselves are no more than empty gestures unless they are accompanied by faith. Initially Lutheranism and the Reformation was built around this central affirmation.

 Today some of this remains a key concept within Protestantism, which is why so many Protestants give less attention to the sacraments - 'works' as opposed to faith. True religion, they would argue, is in the heart - love of God - and not in attending worship or adoration of the Eucharist or reciting the Rosary. These, some would argue, become mechanical acts, like Tibetan Biddhists spinning prayer wheels. God is not moved by the number of pious rituals we go through. God is moved by our deep dedication to him and to his earthy children. Hence, those last verses of Matt. 25 and the Parable of the GVood Samaritan.

 Protestant guilt exists mainly among 'holiness' Protestants, those who are taught that it's a sin to take a drink or to dance, or maybe to play cards or attend a movie on the Sabbath. When they fail to live up to such a strict code of behavior many feel guilty while others find a church home somewhere else. On the other hand, one has to admire those who live under such restrictions - e. g., the Amish, one of my favorite groups. If all the world were Amish we'd be much better off. Still and again, I am not about to give up my car, TV set or computer.   

  Most mainline Protestants are theological liberals and likely suffer from less guilt. Even among them, however, ethical standards are high and failing to live up to them can have an impact. They may consult their pastor, or see a psychiatrist.

 

[nickybr38]

Protestantism is so diversified that this question is hard to answer.

But Luther came to believe the major focus on works - pray this and get that, say so many rosarys and obtain this, confess your sins and become absolved, etc.- this mechanical way of winnin salvation was wrong.

Wahaha. That’s kind of ironic and hilarious because now we have Protestant churches that teach that if you pray hard enough God will give you anything you want. ‘Pray this - get that’. So, essentially what he sought to escape came right back around to exist again.

Problem is, instead of doing the noble thing and attempting to change the Church within, he did the dishonorable thing - which is, divorce himself from the family. No matter how good Luther’s intentions were I can never agree with his solution. Separating a family is NEVER a good solution for handling disagreements and problems.

 

[Roy5]

True. The evangelical preachers who preach the ‘prosperity gospel’ are an offense. With maybe 400,000 or so Protestant pastors in the USA you can fine all sorts of characters and kooks among them. To tarnish them all by citing some is like labeling the Catholic clergy pedaphiles because a tiny group have been sexual predators.

 When it comes to Luther, there is plenty of blame to go around. Even the Papacy seems to recognize this now. Had Luther been treated less harshly and urgent reforms made, perhaps the Reformation would not have succeeded. It swept much of Europe because so many Catholics recognized that there was widespread distortion, exploitation, superstition and corruption and were drawn into the Protestant movement.

 It wasn't long before the Papacy, in effect, declared Luther a religious heretic and outlaw who could be killed on the spot. Had not a prince given Luther a safe haven, he would have been burned at the stake or hung - like Hus and many other pre-Reformation protesters.   . 

 It's past time that this 500-year-old old Catholic-Protestant nonsense be buried and we follow the path that leads to reconciliation and mutual respect. Christ would urge that.

 

[nickybr38]

True. The evangelical preachers who preach the ‘prosperity gospel’ are an offense. With maybe 400,000 or so Protestant pastors in the USA you can fine all sorts of characters and kooks among them. To tarnish them all by citing some is like labeling the Catholic clergy pedaphiles because a tiny group have been sexual predators.

 When it comes to Luther, there is plenty of blame to go around. Even the Papacy seems to recognize this now. Had Luther been treated less harshly and urgent reforms made, perhaps the Reformation would not have succeeded. It swept much of Europe because so many Catholics recognized that there was widespread distortion, exploitation, superstition and corruption and were drawn into the Protestant movement.

 It wasn't long before the Papacy, in effect, declared Luther a religious heretic and outlaw who could be killed on the spot. Had not a prince given Luther a safe haven, he would have been burned at the stake or hung - like Hus and many other pre-Reformation protesters.   . 

 It's past time that this 500-year-old old Catholic-Protestant nonsense be buried and we follow the path that leads to reconciliation and mutual respect. Christ would urge that.

The Church had far bigger problems then Luther during that time, which is why he was mishandled.

I agree that we are still family, even if we are living in separate houses.

 

[PerryJ]

Protestantism is so diversified that this question is hard to answer.

Among evangelical Protestants, there can be ‘guilt’. This, however, is mitigated by simple faith. Luther became disillusioned with what he called the Catholic emphasis on works. The system of indulgences was especially offensive. At that time, of course. St. Peter’s in Rome was being built, and Tetzel was traveling around, promising that deceased relatives could get out of purgatory faster if their kinfolk gave generously, etc. But Luther came to believe the major focus on works - pray this and get that, say so many rosarys and obtain this, confess your sins and become absolved, etc.- this mechanical way of winnin salvation was wrong.

One day, as most readers know, his eureka moment came when he focused on that verse in Romans where Paul states clearly that we are justified by simple faith in Christ, that sacraments play a positive role in that may lead us to faith but that they by themselves are no more than empty gestures unless they are accompanied by faith. Initially Lutheranism and the Reformation was built around this central affirmation.

 Today some of this remains a key concept within Protestantism, which is why so many Protestants give less attention to the sacraments - 'works' as opposed to faith. True religion, they would argue, is in the heart - love of God - and not in attending worship or adoration of the Eucharist or reciting the Rosary. These, some would argue, become mechanical acts, like Tibetan Biddhists spinning prayer wheels. God is not moved by the number of pious rituals we go through. God is moved by our deep dedication to him and to his earthy children. Hence, those last verses of Matt. 25 and the Parable of the GVood Samaritan.

 Protestant guilt exists mainly among 'holiness' Protestants, those who are taught that it's a sin to take a drink or to dance, or maybe to play cards or attend a movie on the Sabbath. When they fail to live up to such a strict code of behavior many feel guilty while others find a church home somewhere else. On the other hand, one has to admire those who live under such restrictions - e. g., the Amish, one of my favorite groups. If all the world were Amish we'd be much better off. Still and again, I am not about to give up my car, TV set or computer.   

  Most mainline Protestants are theological liberals and likely suffer from less guilt. Even among them, however, ethical standards are high and failing to live up to them can have an impact. They may consult their pastor, or see a psychiatrist.

I struggle with most of yor statements. First Luther was very hypocrytical and political. He judged that indulegences sold to build a Church were without merit. (Note one had to be truly contrite for the indulgences to be granted by God.) He though supported the German Monarch Frederick to sell a reduction of purgatory by paying to see relics such as St Anne’s thumb, the mutlilated bodies of babies supposedly from the massacre of King Herod, twigs from the burning bush, hay from Christ manager etc. In fact the inventory of items he supported was 17,443. If one purchased all of this then one would have his suffering reduced by 1,902,202 years and 270 days. Very ironic because he didnt even believe in purgatory. Didnt stop him from supporting the sale of these relic visits. I am curios why you would know of Tetzel; but, not know Luther’s beliefs?

The eureka moment was when he read Romans backwards. He then deleted a word to fit his theology. A theology based upon his relationship with his father. Even his Father is quoted as stating that the Devil must had something to do with Luther becoming a Priest.

I do not mind people pointing out Catholic errors as everyone errs. I am curious why people do not study their own leader or publish their faults. Luther spent weeks in Rome early on and did not mention the sins of the Church once. Even though he wrote virtually everyday.

Lastlly, I am not sure where you came up with drinking is a sin. As a former Protestant it is not considered a sin. It is an act that can lead to sin. As such one should refrain from the action.

 

[PerryJ]

Faith and works appear to be grealty misunderstood here. Works are an expression from faith. As the Bible clearly states with the fruit of the vine. If one has faith one will have works and will bear good fruit. They are not separate items. They are on in the same. Because of Luther’s fear he confessed and beat himself for hours on end even though his confessor clealry stated that he was forgiven and was actually confessing things that were not sins. Because of his terror he changed the Bible to fit his fears. He changed it to Faith alone gets one into heaven. No one truly disagrees with that thought. If a Catholic has faith they will have the Lord within them and they will bear good fruit. Now Luther extended his thought that if one has faith one does not need good works. Clearly this is unbiblical; however, the point is most Christians believe that Catholic’s believe that works have to come first and are a requirement to get to heaven. That is incorrect works are the result of having faith and Christ entering your life so that you do good works.

 

[PerryJ]

When it comes to Luther, there is plenty of blame to go around. Even the Papacy seems to recognize this now. Had Luther been treated less harshly and urgent reforms made, perhaps the Reformation would not have succeeded. It swept much of Europe because so many Catholics recognized that there was widespread distortion, exploitation, superstition and corruption and were drawn into the Protestant movement.

 It wasn't long before the Papacy, in effect, declared Luther a religious heretic and outlaw who could be killed on the spot. Had not a prince given Luther a safe haven, he would have been burned at the stake or hung - like Hus and many other pre-Reformation protesters.

That is looking at a very complex time without enough depth. The monarchies wanted total control without Papal interference. This included them being admonished for sins. The Mulsim’s continued to conquered Christian lands and were approaching Italy. Perhaps wrongly the Pope looked to the Monarchies to protect Italy. For example the Spanish Inquistion that is most often blamed on Catholics was the result of Spain forcibly converrting Jews and Muslims to Christianity and the torturing them because they were not truly Christian. Spain did this because of the growing fear of Mulsim’s and Jews within their country. The Pope issued a papal bull against the inquistion; however, Spain told the Pope that they would not protect Italy from the Muslims. In my opinion the Pope needed more faith; however, I was not there. The Pope rescinded the Bull that expressly stated the inquisition had to stop.

Many Catholics were actively reviving the Church. There are always good and bad within a Church, organization etc. Luther was hardly the one saving the Church. One also has to state the issues often proposed were temporary. The Pope in question spent too much money and went on hunts far to often. Again he sold indulgences to build a Church; but, the indulgences did not apply unless one was truly contrite. He was not truly in power for many years. Are these actions worse then Luther supporting the murder of 400,000 of his own followers? Or helping his monarch to sell visits to fake relics?

All of these comments can be found in any book written about Luther. In fact most books have copies of his writings you can read.

 

[Roy5]

PerryJ

 Don't want to get further into Luther details. The views and 'facts' are so different, so perhaps it's a case of Protestants and Catholics 'agreeing to disagree'. No great harm in that.

 I was surprised that you don't know that many Protestant traditions have condemned the drinking of alcohol, including the two largest Protestant groups in the USA - the Baptists and Methodists. How else do you think Prohibition was added to the Constitution nearly 100 years ago? Go to most Protestant churches and you will find that they have grapejuice and not wine for communion. I know this personally because the 'Protestant wing' of my family never permitted alcohol in their homes.

Keep smiling.

 

[AbideWithMe]

PerryJ

 I was surprised that you don't know that many Protestant traditions have condemned the drinking of alcohol, including the two largest Protestant groups in the USA - the Baptists and Methodists. How else do you think Prohibition was added to the Constitution nearly 100 years ago? Go to most Protestant churches and you will find that they have grapejuice and not wine for communion. I know this personally because the 'Protestant wing' of my family never permitted alcohol in their homes.

Keep smiling.

Hi Roy–

I’m not sure if maybe that’s a Southern thing, but at least here in the Northeast US, the people I know who go to Baptist and Methodist churches don’t see any problem with moderate drinking.

This in off topic—About the Amish, Roy—Mennonites are plentiful in my area, and they are great to have as neighbors. I’ve never met an obnoxious Mennonite. I don’t know as many Amish, but some of them do unfortunately have a bad reputation in regards to their treatment of horses, and in breeding dogs in puppy mills. Then again, I’ve known horses that were owned by Amish that were well treated.