Protestant here with Some Words

[TobyLue]

I think this is the crux of the problem jpete79.

There was a man on a cross next to Christ…Christ told the man on this day he would be with him in paradise. He didn’t tell him that he was not pure. And this is a man who was crucified. That was an execution for the worst crimes. If this man didn’t have to be purified why would anyone else?

You are using your own self-interpretation on scripture and that can be very, very dangerous. You read but do not listen. Look at what you said, “Christ told the man on this day he would be with him in paradise.” Did Jesus so straight to heaven after he died? How long was it before he ascended to the father? Did Jesus lie? How is this interpreted? By your interpretation, the man went with Jesus straight to heaven? But how could he since Jesus said he would rise on the third day. Then how about, he was crucified and died on Friday and rose on Sunday. Lets see, Friday around 3Pm to Saturday 3Pm is 24 hours or one day, then from Saturday to Sunday 3PM is 48 hours or two days, then from Sunday to Monday 3PM would have been 3 days. Hmmmm, is this a dilemma?. Just by “reading” scripture by ourselves we would have to say that Jesus lied because he rose on Sunday and not on Monday.

Besides you have questioned time and again authority, but tell me, is the following scripture or not? “If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a pagan or tax collector.” And also these heavy, heavy words “Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me.” Are you listening to the church which Jesus founded or are you listening to your own self-interpretation?

What I see is sad because my argument stands on the ground of Jesus Christ.

No, I think you are standing on the ground of your own self-interpretation and saying “this is what Jesus says”

And when you say that the Pope contradicted scripture regarding confession, I shall just refer you to this link and read what the early church taught before anybody was able to “read” the bible on their own.

 

[milimac]

jpete79:

I want to ask you if you believe that both the Catechism and the Bible are infallible?

Any comments on the article I referred to in my last post? I think it would clear up some misconceptions.

As to your question and as alluded to in another post, the Bible is inerrant, but much more than that it is the inspired Word of God. As such, it is much more than the infallible teachings of the Church which are not the inspired Word of God, but are only guaranteed to be free from error. Whether or not the Catechism is infallible teaching I am not sure, but from the text of the Prologue referred to in another reply to your question above, it sounds close enough for me. If not infallible teaching as a whole, it at least contains infallible teachings. In either case, whether it be the Bible or the infallible teaching of the Church it certainly seems that infallible teaching may be given, but not necessarily received. I think that’s quite clear just looking at the countless Christian denominations which are grouped around their own interpretation of the Bible. They may not be infallible, but they sure seem to imply it when they assert that there is no such thing as Papal infallibility.

In practice, I don’t really think about whether a teaching is fallible or infallible or whether it has been declared to be an infallible teaching. I assent to the teaching of the Popes and the Magesterium of the Church as best I can.

People have interpreted the Bible in multiple ways to justify whatever they want to support. I recently read of a pastor quoting from the Bible to justify abortion. This clearly contradicts what others teach from the Bible. How do you know what’s really true? By what the majority believe? By a sense that you’re more in tune with the Holy Spirit than someone else? Because it just feels right? Or truth is relative and it’s whatever we make it out to be for ourselves? I certainly don’t believe that I am infallible. I know that it is possible and likely for me to make mistakes if I was to just believe what sincerely felt right to me. Indeed, I make enough mistakes as it is: teaching may be given infallibly, but that doesn’t mean it is always understood or received infallibly. All in all, I’d much rather try to walk on solid rock as much as possible than trudge through the shifting sand of feelings and self-interpretation. I don’t put that much faith in myself.

Here are a couple other links that may be helpful if you are truly searching for an answer to your questions (gleened from a scan of “infallible” in the “Ask an Apologist” forum):

newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

mafg.home.isp-direct.com/magist02.htm

God bless you on your journey. I hope you do not become discouraged from asking further questions and that you might have time when you get a chance to answer some of mine.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

jpete79:

Can you please answer this idea of infallibility passed down the generations and how these atrocities could be committed if a man were infallible (if he were perfect in his moral decisions then it would be assumed that he would live the same moral life)?

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Let me first say that a person cannot be Catholic without being a christian. To be Catholic first and foremost means accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior - a commitment that is reestablished every time we attend mass, and with every act of worship we perform.

Now regarding your question on infallibility - the charism works in the negative. It does not require the Pope to teach infallibly on morals and doctrines, but it is understood that when a Pope does issue a declarative statement on matters of doctrine or morality His statement is - by a singular grace of the Holy Spirit preserved from error. So, for instance, in the case of a “bad” pope - and there have been a few, the Holy Spirit was, I’m sure, working hard to make sure that individual was not proclaiming doctrine on any issues.

Also, the idea of infallibility should not be unfamiliar to protestants. After all, if you accept that the gospel writers each wrote inspired texts that are free from doctrinal error, then you accept that the Gospel writers issued infallible teachings. We as Catholics believe that the Pope - holds a similar ability. That does not mean every word uttered by a Pope is infallible, but when He speaks (or writes) in such a deliberate way that it is clear He is asserting the Charism of infallibility, then we are bound by our faith to accept it as if it were “gospel” truth.

Finally, it does not follow, as you suggest, that a pope would live a moral life *because * of the charism of infallibility. I would hope that the Pope would live a moral life because he was a man of God, not because of any charism that he attains to when he ascends to the office of Vicar of Christ. To the contary, if the Pope were not a man of good moral character (which is not likely) the charism of infallibility would likely act in such a way to protect the Church from his even attempting to teach infallibly.

-Peace

 

[John_Paul_III]

As a former Southern Baptist! I challenge you to not worry about your doubts in Infallibility but try to seek out the miracle in it.

Ask what if

then ask

Is it possible

 

[gusano]

jpete79:

To All:
…
Can you please answer this idea of
(A)… infallibility passed down the generations and

how these atrocities could be committed
(B)… if a man were infallible
(if he were perfect in his moral decisions then it would be assumed that he would live the same moral life)?

Very well jpete79,
I will try, but before I make an attempt I must say;
You remind me of a cowboy with many arrows piercing various parts of his body.
It is difficult to determine which one to deal with first !..

(A)… 2 Tim 2: 2 gives us a “view” of infallibility being passed down through TRADITION;
"The things which you have heard from me through many witnesses you must hand on to trustworthy men who will be able to teach others."

you are free to disagree that that is TRADITION taking place there.
the Protestant fear of “tradition” may not allow you to see it, but if you consider the scripture prayerfully, I think you will see.

(B)… Now, your question;
Can an infallible person prevent atrocities? maybe you could if you were infallible.
Read the story of The Holy Family"s flight into Egypt; Matt. 2: 13-23…
Could Joseph, or Mary, or the Infant Jesus (who are all infallible), have prevented the atrocities in verse 16 - 18…?
"Once Herrod realized he had been deceived by the astrologers, he became furious. He ordered the massacre of all boys two years old and under in Bethlehem and its environs,…"

How about God in heaven, who is the source of infallibility, could He have prevented the massacre of the innocent boys ?

what do you make of it ?

gusano

 

[cocot]

It’s a shame that so many brilliant arguments have fallen on deaf ears - jpete79’s., but I thank you!

 

[rbrooks]

jpete79:

That is quite a bit.

First of all, Peter is mentioned alot. There is no doubt about that and I never said there would be. He was a devoted follower so people would go to him when looking for Jesus.

I can but will not for the sake of time (and argument) post a reply to every single comment.

What I will say is this, Jesus Christ is every bit alive today as he was 2000 years ago. It’s Christmas time which is a time symbolic of when he was born. He may be in Heaven but he knows and sees everything that goes on here. His Spirit has been left to us. The faith should be put into him alone and his teachings; his words. Let them breach your heart and pierce your mind and don’t blindly follow what others say or teach

See the difference is when I read the Bible, I see that Christ’s words are just as important today as they were back then. Because of the nature of the world Jesus Christ’s words will always have that effect.

What I don’t understand (and no matter how many times I see his name in Scripture and no matter how many Popes and Church fathers may have said it) is how one can put so much faith into someone on this world that is the same flesh and blood as themself.

Christ wanted us to be free…I want to ask are you all free? I have heard the same answers from various people on different topics but I have read them as versed and structured from the Catechism. Why not speak from your own hearts?

What I see is sad because my argument stands on the ground of Jesus Christ. The Holy Son of God. Many things I have heard and seen has you putting more emphasis on Peter and the Pope than Christ alone.

You say believing in one is believing in the other. No matter who God puts at the chair in Rome, no matter how immoral the actions it is who is in charge of your morality as they are infallible.

Does that make logical sense to you? Christ was humble, he practiced what he preached. He was perfect. That is why we should continue to look at him. I’m not saying the Church is bad and all the people fo the Church are bad (you are all very knowledgable and smart and do believe in Christ), I’m saying that the Church is not spotless (not until Christ returns will it be made that way), I’m saying that false doctrine can be found anywhere through anyone (even Popes, Bishops, Priests and others). I’m not saying there’s something wrong with being Catholic…there is not; just as I don’t say there’s something wrong with being Methodist, Presbyterian, Non-Denom, Lutheran, Calvinist, Pentecostal, etc. I don’t say this because there is a common thread in the belief of Jesus Christ.

I just want people to realize that we have a perfect mediator in Jesus Christ and don’t need other mediators to get to Him.

jpete,

I know you’re not saying any of us are wrong, and I do agree, the church, in it’s humanity is not spotless, none of us here have said that either. The divinity of the church is though. There is a difference.

My faith is not in any pope. My faith is in Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide and protect the church, just as Jesus promised. Catholics do not claim to put our faith in the pope. We are obidient to the Holy See.

As far as the pope being a mediator, (I think this is where you were going) we do not pray to the pope. So, I’m not sure what you meen. Jesus is our redeemer, mediator, and as adopted children of God, He is our brother.

I mentioned before man, and like others have said, it seems you are going off of many unfounded claims toward the church. I highly recommend being sure of your basis before making such claims. I know what you are saying by Christ alone being the Truth, Way and the Life. It is through Him that we reach the Father and Him alone, but it is in His Church where we are lead closer to Christ. In His Church we are fed, and tended to, just as He told Peter to do. Peter was not going to live forever and his place had to be passed on for us sinners to be tended and fed.

As said many times before, Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, He would be with us until the end of the age and that the Spirit would guide the Church to all truth. So, in order for you to be correct in your theolagy, Jesus has to be a liar, the Spirit has failed and satan has won. See what I am saying here? The words were from Christ, NOT the popes, or ours.

God bless brother!
Rich

 

[jim1130]

rbrooks:

jpete,

I know you’re not saying any of us are wrong, and I do agree, the church, in it’s humanity is not spotless, none of us here have said that either. The divinity of the church is though. There is a difference.

My faith is not in any pope. My faith is in Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide and protect the church, just as Jesus promised. Catholics do not claim to put our faith in the pope. We are obidient to the Holy See.

As far as the pope being a mediator, (I think this is where you were going) we do not pray to the pope. So, I’m not sure what you meen. Jesus is our redeemer, mediator, and as adopted children of God, He is our brother.

I mentioned before man, and like others have said, it seems you are going off of many unfounded claims toward the church. I highly recommend being sure of your basis before making such claims. I know what you are saying by Christ alone being the Truth, Way and the Life. It is through Him that we reach the Father and Him alone, but it is in His Church where we are lead closer to Christ. In His Church we are fed, and tended to, just as He told Peter to do. Peter was not going to live forever and his place had to be passed on for us sinners to be tended and fed.

As said many times before, Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, He would be with us until the end of the age and that the Spirit would guide the Church to all truth. So, in order for you to be correct in your theolagy, Jesus has to be a liar, the Spirit has failed and satan has won. See what I am saying here? The words were from Christ, NOT the popes, or ours.

God bless brother!
Rich

This is probably a simplistic example, but this is how I view the visible Church, the Pope, St. Peter, Apostolic Succession etc.

I have a job and my direct supervisor, whom I report to, answers to an executive. That is how the business is arranged and established. When I have an issue, I go directly to my direct supervisor, not the executive to whom my supervisor reports. Why? Because the executive delegated authority and jurisdiction over my area and me to my direct supervisor. If I took my concerns to the executive, thereby circumventing the system established, the reply I would receive from the executive is “I have already delegated authority to such matters to someone over your area so you must address the concern directly with that person.” If the executive addresses my issues directly then the executive has usurped the authority granted to my direct supervisor. This, to me, is how Jesus delegated authority to His visible Church; that Jesus assigned Authority to St. Peter and to the visible Church to interpret.

 

[Sherlock]

jpete79:

To All:

In the 1500’s things started changing. Protestants started walking away from the Church (though others walked away as early as the 1000’s from what I’ve read).
Jim

Many people didn’t have the choice of “walking away from the Church”, especially in England. They were told by their kings and overseers to accept Protestantism or be killed. Many were martyred because they refused to give up their faith.

 

[Alberich]

jpete79:

I am going to be blunt and be honest right now. Can a Catholic be Christian and know Christ? Without a doubt. But it is the premise of infallibility in the Magisterium and the Pope that I cannot acknowledge.

I cannot acknowledge that a person with a title or position gets authority to be 100% accurate in morals and faith. Especially when you look at people that have held this position. The Popes who stood at the forefront of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The Popes who stood by while the Holocaust went on and the Popes who cover-up sexual abuse scandals.

Again, I don’t say that people can’t be Catholic and Christian but to have people that have stood by while millions were killed in different periods of time and say they are infallible in matters of morals and faith I just can’t understand.

I do believe tradition itself is important to know. I believe learning about what people like Origen and Augustine did and said are vital in understanding faith. However, though studying it, I will not always agree with it as they just like every man, woman and child are not infallible or impeccable.

Can you please answer this idea of infallibility passed down the generations and how these atrocities could be committed if a man were infallible (if he were perfect in his moral decisions then it would be assumed that he would live the same moral life)?

To me, this is easy. One could just as easily turn and say, “Can you please answer this idea of omniopotence and how these atrocities could be committed if God were infallible?” On the other hand, He has given all of us free will. You, me, Pope Pius XII, Athanasius, and Bill Clinton, too. And we–often to our great detriment–use it with a passion! We sin, we ask forgiveness, we perform holy works, non nobis domine, and so we live our lives.

But, as I ramble, the reason that the Popes and Magesteria are infallible (as such) when speaking on certain matters (and realize, they are ONLY infallible on certain matters) is biblical. Christ handed the keys to the kingdom to both Christ (whom the Pope represents on earth) and to His Apostles (the bishops). And, as I must head off now, I leave this discussion for awhile!

Pax!

 

[Jlcastagna]

I’ve skipped a whole lot of posts # 82 was the last that I’ve read so far, but I’m a little confused here jpete. You say everything is so simple you just need to believe in Jesus Christ. right!

So throughout the whole old testament and from the begining why didn’t God just tell Adam and Eve “Just believe in Me and you will be O.K.” or is that what he meant when he said “Don’t eat the fruit in the center of the garden”

Jesus came to and spent all that time teaching when all he had to say was “hey, I’m here to die for you. I just need for you to believe in Me and thats it. Oh and by the way in I didn’t make it clear enough I’ll send the Holy Spirit to inspire you to just believe in Me”.

The bottom line is God has always asked us to DO something besides just believe in him. Protestants its seams are just cafeteria Catholics on a diet. Chooseing just one item to Believe.
Those who have believed and personally known one or more persons of the Blessed Trinity are: satan and the 1/3 of the angels who followed him, Judas, all the Jews who turned and walked away to never walk with Christ again…

Believeing is never enough you need to be O-B-D-ant.
Heres the best part Protestants who claim the Bible only are the ones who choose to not be obedient to to the teaching which the Blessed Trinity has instructed us to do. Its O.K. to just Believe, You don’t need to partake of the Holy Eucharist that was just symbolic.

Satan just keeps shifting us like Wheat. Millions of truths just to get the human race to accept one lie and puff another denomination who has a little less of the truth or puff abortion is legalized or puff divorce is made easier or puff contraceptives are good things or puff no praying in school, need I go on. As for me I pray as Christ did that we may be one so that the world will believe. Not that we can continue to divide so that the world can be confused that is Satan’s desire.

jpete, once again frustration has got to me. Please look at the whole BIG PICTURE.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

rbrooks:

Peter’s primacy in Scripture,

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

looong snippp - to let in my stuff

Don’t forget this incident:​

• Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
• Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Church apologetic - of any Church, probably - is not always very good at mentioning those passages that don’t evidently support a given position: they seem to be glossed over.

Yet they are in the text, and they play a part in the passages in which they occur, no less so than other more obviusly valuable texts. ##

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Dear Jpete79,

I promise nothing here that you have to stop to go read or study.

You are a follower of Tradition that is not Biblical. You live by the Magesterium given to us by Christ also. Though you may not realize it.

I assume that you celebrate the birth of Jesus the Christ every year on December 25th? Where is that in the Bible? Where does the bible say that Jesus was born on Dec. 25? More that likely, Jesus was not born in the month of December. The shepards were tending their sheep in the fields around Bethaham on that night. The “lambing season” not December by any stretch of the imagination.

I assume that you celebrated Easter in 2005 on the same day as the Catholic Church? Why is that? The Jewish holiday of Passover was celebrated a week earlier this year. According to the Bible you would have celebrated Easter a week before the Catholic Church this year. I did you?

All Christian holidays are celebrated when the Church says that Christians should celebrate them. Being the authority left here by Jesus in matters of Faith and the teaching, Tradition.

Do you use the term Christmas to discribe the birth of the Lord? What does the last part of the word “Christmas” means. Christ’s Mass.

Do you have a nativity scene at your home or in your church? Started by St. Francis. More Tradition. not Biblical.

Can you point to where the Bible says the word “Trinity”?

The Magesterium effects all Christian life. It was left for all christians, to guide them in there daily lives to live by Christ’s examples and by his word. I’ve only listed a few of the ways that the Church has effected your live. I could go on.

If all things that non-catholics believe are in the bible and these clearly are not, should they be eliminated from non-catholic worship?

Jesus desires that each of us commit our lives to Worshing God the Father and do what is pleasing to God. It is true conversion when someone is able to set their own intellect and pride aside and follow Jesus, submitting to his teaching authority both in heaven and here on earth.

Respectfully,

Sean

 

[Montie_Claunch]

## Don’t forget this incident:

• Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
• Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Church apologetic - of any Church, probably - is not always very good at mentioning those passages that don’t evidently support a given position: they seem to be glossed over.

Yet they are in the text, and they play a part in the passages in which they occur, no less so than other more obviusly valuable texts. ##

I brought this up at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=88795 so if you would like to talk with us there please.

 

[reen12]

God be with you, JPete79.

“Pray for me, as I will for thee,
That we may meet merrily, in heaven.”

reen12

 

[scylla]

Amen Reen,

I will pray for you too JPete79 that you seek more and keep on this forum. I will not contribute because I am sure there is too much here for you to respond to.

I hope you stay here and continue contributing to this forum.

In Christ
Scylla