Protestant hymns in the Catholic missal

[RNRobert]

When I converted to Catholicism 11 years ago, I was surprised how many protestant hymns were in the Catholic music missal. Just wondering: is the Catholic musical heritage so bereft of good hymns that we have to borrow from our seperated brethren (and I was REALLY surprised to see Martin Luther’s 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God included).

I dunno… maybe going back to the TLM and Gregorian Chant isn’t such a bad idea…

 

[acavender]

When I converted to Catholicism 11 years ago, I was surprised how many protestant hymns were in the Catholic music missal. Just wondering: is the Catholic musical heritage so bereft of good hymns that we have to borrow from our seperated brethren (and I was REALLY surprised to see Martin Luther’s 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God included).

I dunno… maybe going back to the TLM and Gregorian Chant isn’t such a bad idea…

Is using “A Mighty Fortress” a problem? I don’t recall anything with that hymn that’s theologically problematic.

Truth is truth, whether it’s expressed by a Catholic or someone else. So long as a hymn is theologically sound and decent musically, I have no problem using it.

Of course, that’s not to say that we shouldn’t encourage musically gifted Catholics to write some good contemporary hymns. And, though I wouldn’t want to see us use it exclusively, I also wouldn’t object to a bit more use of Gregorian.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Well, I would rather sing several hymns of non-Catholic origin, including “A Might Fortress” than go through yet another bleating of “Gather Us In”.

Some of the Anglican hymns are more theologically sound than the standard offerings.

Nevertheless, if you take a gander out there, find the Adoremus Hymnal. Suggest politely to your liturgist and cantor that “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” is one of your favorites (It is mine).

 

[Ridgerunner]

When I converted to Catholicism 11 years ago, I was surprised how many protestant hymns were in the Catholic music missal. Just wondering: is the Catholic musical heritage so bereft of good hymns that we have to borrow from our seperated brethren (and I was REALLY surprised to see Martin Luther’s 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God included).

I dunno… maybe going back to the TLM and Gregorian Chant isn’t such a bad idea…

Being “eleven years old” in the Church, you missed the post-Vatican II explosion of music. Lots of people in the Church felt that everything had to be “modernized” and made more “relevant”. There was an absolutely massive number of new songs written in the 1970s and early 1980s. Trouble is, “modern” has a way of moving on, and what was once thought modern is now passe. Lots of it was hurriedly written, often by well-connected people of little talent. Lots of it was written for choral groups of different sizes and instrumentation that most parishes don’t have. Since, of course, we were all being “ecumenical” as well, a number of old Protestant songs got included in the song books. Actually, I kind of appreciate some of them because they are more “singable” than some of the ones hurriedly written after VII. Also, many of them have better placement of vowels and consonants, which makes many of them easier to sing.

But yes, there was a huge treasury of Catholic hymns before Vatican II. In some places, they are coming back into use. One of these days, I believe all, or virtually all of the 1970s and 1980s songs will be discarded in favor of older Catholic hymns and perhaps a few well-crafted new ones, and a lot of the Protestant hymns will be discarded with them.

I, for one, don’t particularly mind the one that Protestants call the “Doxology”. I rather like “Rock of Ages” and “Old Hundredth”. I don’t like “Amazing Grace” because nobody seems to be able to sing it without dragging the notes, making it sort of whiney. I like some of the old “country hymns” because I grew up listening to them on the radio, being from a very Bible Belt part of the country. “I’ll fly away” was one that was often sung in the strawberry patches when I was a kid, and I grew to rather like it, and some of that genre. But I don’t think I would want to sing it at Mass.

 

[lak611]

Is using “A Mighty Fortress” a problem? I don’t recall anything with that hymn that’s theologically problematic.

Truth is truth, whether it’s expressed by a Catholic or someone else. So long as a hymn is theologically sound and decent musically, I have no problem using it.

Of course, that’s not to say that we shouldn’t encourage musically gifted Catholics to write some good contemporary hymns. And, though I wouldn’t want to see us use it exclusively, I also wouldn’t object to a bit more use of Gregorian.

The only hymns I know in Latin are “Tantum Ergo” and “Adeste Fidelis”. Everything else I know is either vernacular Catholic hymns or Protestant hymns. When I look at the dates the hymns were written, I pretty much don’t like anything written after the 1950’s (the last good one is “How Great Thou Art” which I know is Protestant), but unless I see Luther or Wesley is the writer, I have no idea which is Catholic and which is Protestant (unless it gives some Latin wording in the hymnal).

 

[AMDG1]

As a fellow poster pointed out, there are many good “traditional” Catholic hymns…it just seems too many music directors ignore them.

Holy God We Praise Thy Name;
O Sanctissima (available in English too);
Salve Regina (same as above);
Holy, Holy, Holy

I could go on but you get the point. When was the last time any of us heard any of these songs we grew up with? Who stole the songs we sang for generations?

 

[Beno]

Look up the history of a lot of so-called Catholic hymns and you’d be surprised at how many of them have protestant origins in their music or lyrics or both. As a Director of Music, I know, because I did some research on the matter as a result of a pastoral associate telling me of her dislike for hymnody because of their protestant origins. Popular hymnody as we know it and use it does indeed have protestant origins. But this is not a reason to get too concerned about borrowing from our separated bretheren. If the hymns are musically sound, and the lyrics are in accord with scripture and Catholic teaching, then they are perfectly fine for use in Catholic worship. But I would agree that if the lyrics are suspect in the beliefs that are espoused, then that is cause for concern.

I’ll follow up later with a listing of music in our Catholic hymnals/songbooks that have protestant origins. You’d be surprised at the contributions that protestants have made to “our” musical heritage.

 

[mystified]

Have to agree that truth is truth, and I also like some of the old “country” hymns. If I never hear Kubaya anywhere again, or the “me-me, I-I” stuff, it will be soon enough. Has Michael gotten to shore yet?
I recall as a grammar school kid, we were walked to a local Mennonite church for a 20-minute generic/protestant (but never anti-Catholic) class once a week. I was surprised to find in their hymnal a number of hymns by Catholics.
Guess it can run both ways.

 

[RWMorris]

As a church musician, I think it is perfectly fine to use some Protestant hymns. Just because Martin Luther had wrong ideas about the Church doesn’t make his song “A Mighty Fortress” bad…in fact, it is doctrinally a wonderful hymn and has a lovely sound.
I think we should draw on other traditions as long as the doctrine is correct.
But let me add as a caveat that mostly Catholic music should be used, and right now praise and worship music is WAY overused. I put my foot down and only do maybe 1-2 praise and worship songs each Sunday.
As Far as using the Gregorian chant, we use more contemporary chant in our little cathedral because it is easier for the congregation to sing in these days. We still use some older stuff (chants) but some of them are really hard for the congregation to decipher, and my job as musician is to accompany the Mass for the glory of God and to HELP the congregation worship, not sidetrack everyone with music they don’t know.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Having grown up in the Pre-Vatican II Church, I remember when no one sang, other than the choir.

Then after Vatican II, few sang.

However, as songs became more familiar and enjoyable to sing, more people sang. Parishes that remain with the old dead hymns, few of the people sing.

Some protestant hymns are just better than some Catholic hymns.

Jim

 

[Marysann]

I second all of the posters who believe that many so called “Protestant” hymns are suitable for use in Catholic Churches. I collect hymnals, and I just did a little cursory survey of the Episcopal Hymnal of 1940, one of my favorties. I found 100 hymns with words obviously written by Catholics including St. Gregory the Great, St. Ambrose, St Thomas Aquinas, and Father Faber. There are 600 regular hymns in this book. I wonder if Protestants ever complained that their hymnals were becoming too Catholic?! These hymns have theologically sound poetry, and lovely tunes which have passed the test of time. I think that they are uplifting and a joy to sing. I promote their use whenever I can. When I hear people complain about the use of Protestant hymns, I remember a quote from Monsignor Ratzinger, brother of our Holy Father, and a professional church musician, who said “Which note is Protestant?”

 

[AELondon]

I too, see no problem in using hymns with Protestant origins - so long as they are theologically sound. Essentially, if they are theologically sound - they are Catholic, even if their authors didn’t know it.

 

[Wolseley]

is the Catholic musical heritage so bereft of good hymns that we have to borrow from our seperated brethren

If all we have is the sludge that was written after Vatican II, the awful Gather / Glory and Praise garbage, yes, it is. Totally bereft.

mystified:

Has Michael gotten to shore yet?

No, and he never will. My crew and I took care of him long ago.

*“Torpedo bereit, Herr Kapitän!”

“Sehr gut. Markierung…drei…zwei…eins…lose!”

“Torpedo weg, Herr Kapitän…gerade auf Ziel!”*

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

As a fellow poster pointed out, there are many good “traditional” Catholic hymns…it just seems too many music directors ignore them.

Holy God We Praise Thy Name;
O Sanctissima (available in English too);
Salve Regina (same as above);
Holy, Holy, Holy

I could go on but you get the point. When was the last time any of us heard any of these songs we grew up with? Who stole the songs we sang for generations?

Faith of Our Fathers
Accept, Almighty Father
Jesus My Lord, my God, My All
Panis Angelicus

 

[Beno]

:tiphat: OK, I’m back with a short list of “Protestant” hymns used by Catholics. I’ll use the following designations:

PL = lyrics written by a protestant
PM = music written by a protestant
SM = music has secular or cultural origin

For the Fruits of This Creation - SM
Holy, Holy, Holy - PL, PM
Now Thank We All Our God - PL, PM
O Breathe On Me, O Breath of God - SM
Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow - PL, PM
Praise to the Lord - PL, PM
Sent Forth By God’s Blessing - SM
This Day God Gives Me - SM
We Gather Together - PL, SM
See How the Virgin Waits - SM
From the Depths We Cry to Thee - PM
Jesus Christ Is Risen Today - PL
Lord, Who Throughout These Forty Days - PL, PM
O Sacred Head Surrounded - PM
Sing of Mary - SM
Come Ye Thankful People Come - PL, PM
For All the Saints - PL, PM

And most of the traditional Christmas carols we sing at church have protestant origins.

 

[Khoria_Anna]

What gripes me, having grown up with Protestant hymns, is hearing traditional Protestant hymns with the lyrics changed to make them “politically correct” with little attemt to tweek the lyrics to make them more in line with Catholic tradition.

 

[lak611]

What gripes me, having grown up with Protestant hymns, is hearing traditional Protestant hymns with the lyrics changed to make them “politically correct” with little attemt to tweek the lyrics to make them more in line with Catholic tradition.

How has this been done?

 

[Melchior]

When I converted to Catholicism 11 years ago, I was surprised how many protestant hymns were in the Catholic music missal. Just wondering: is the Catholic musical heritage so bereft of good hymns that we have to borrow from our seperated brethren (and I was REALLY surprised to see Martin Luther’s 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God included).

I dunno… maybe going back to the TLM and Gregorian Chant isn’t such a bad idea…

Gregorian chant should be the ideal in every parish. But as far as hymns go protestants have written all the good ones in the past 500 years. While Catholic have Peter, Paul and Mary cover songs… ala Marty and David.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Well, I would rather sing several hymns of non-Catholic origin, including “A Might Fortress” than go through yet another bleating of “Gather Us In”.

Some of the Anglican hymns are more theologically sound than the standard offerings.

Nevertheless, if you take a gander out there, find the Adoremus Hymnal. Suggest politely to your liturgist and cantor that “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” is one of your favorites (It is mine).

Wurd.

 

[Digitonomy]

Khoria Anna:

What gripes me, having grown up with Protestant hymns, is hearing traditional Protestant hymns with the lyrics changed to make them “politically correct” with little attemt to tweek the lyrics to make them more in line with Catholic tradition.

How has this been done?

One that I recall is Amazing Grace… “that saved a wretch like me” becomes “that saved and set me free.”